GDT: Sharks @ Blues 11/9/18

[SJSharksfan39]

On a positive note, the Ducks are playing almost as ineptly as the Sharks are. Just turned on the game and the Wild just scored two quick additional goals.

 

[Solmors]

On a positive note, the Ducks are playing almost as ineptly as the Sharks are. Just turned on the game and the Wild just scored two quick additional goals.

We are really lucky the Pacific division is garbage this year.

 

[Nighthock]

Didn't see an option to record this game... doesn't look like I missed much. About what I expected...

 

[Internazionale]

This team is going to drive me to drink in a bad bad way.

 

[WSS11]

Our forwards are fast enough except for 2 of them but they get overplayed.

Then why do they peel off to the boards even on odd man rushes every time they enter the zone instead of driving to the net using the middle of the ice?

 

[one2gamble]

Then why do they peel off to the boards even on odd man rushes every time they enter the zone instead of driving to the net using the middle of the ice?

This is a system thing. Patty would do this as well

 

[Bleedred]

The DeBoer system just becomes very ineffective at scoring goals. It's fine for puck possession and cycling, but it's not ideal for finishing.

And when you got Steve Spott running the power play, that will never be maximized to its full potential, so you have to try and score more even strength goals than if you had a guy here who knew what he was doing with the power play.

 

[BaileyMacTavish]

Fire. Pete.

 

[RoloTonyBrownTown]

Time for a Mustache Ride® - all aboard the Coach Q train.

 

[drunksage]

SNOG announcement​

My bad on the super-extended delay, probably got too bummed out and a bit too tipsy by the time I finished watching about an hour or so ago.

Anyway, no SNOG.

#	Date / Opponent	SNOG Winner(s)​	Result
1	Oct. 3 vs Ducks	none	Ducks 5-2
2	Oct. 5 at Kings	PackShark, HOOCH2173, Herschel, Ol Dirty Pirate	Sharks 3-2 OT
3	Oct. 8 at Islanders	none	Islanders 4-0
4	Oct. 9 at Flyers	none	Sharks 8-2
5	Oct. 11 at Rangers	none	Rangers 3-2 OT
6	Oct. 14 at Devils	none	Devils 3-2
7	Oct. 18 vs Sabres	fasterthanlight	Sharks 5-1
8	Oct. 20 vs Islanders	BaileyMacTavish, Kcoyote3	Sharks 4-1
9	Oct. 23 at Predators	none	Sharks 5-4
10	Oct. 26 at Hurricanes	none	Hurricanes 4-3 SO
11	Oct. 28 at Ducks	none	Sharks 4-3 OT
12	Oct. 30 vs Rangers	none	Rangers 4-3 SO
13	Nov. 1 vs Blue Jackets	none	Blue Jackets 4-1
14	Nov. 3 vs Flyers	rangerssharks414	Sharks 4-3 OT
15	Nov. 6 vs Wild	FeedingFrenzy	Sharks 4-3
16	Nov. 8 at Stars	none	Stars 4-3
17	Nov. 9 at Blues	none	Blues 4-0

[THEAD] [/THEAD]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Rank	2018-19 SNOG standings​	# of SNOGs
T-1.	BaileyMacTavish, fasterthanlight, FeedingFrenzy, Herschel, HOOCH2173, Kcoyote3, Ol Dirty Pirate, PackShark, rangerssharks414	1

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

I just want to make it very clear that saying “DeBoer is better than TMac!” is not a valid excuse. Particularly not when TMac literally beat DeBoer in 6 games with a shitty Oilers team.

 

[WSS11]

This is a system thing. Patty would do this as well

Touché but still annoying and easy to defend.

 

[hohosaregood]

I just want to make it very clear that saying “DeBoer is better than TMac!” is not a valid excuse. Particularly not when TMac literally beat DeBoer in 6 games with a ****ty Oilers team.

Deboer beat Laviolette but I'm not gonna use that to say PDB is a better coach.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Deboer beat Laviolette but I'm not gonna use that to say PDB is a better coach.

I’m actually not saying that TMac is a better coach, but DeBoer had a much stronger roster in both of those playoff series.

 

[OrrNumber4]

DeBoer certainly deserves to be criticized...but I only see him as the prime scapegoat in these cases:

1) Melker Karlsson over anyone else
2) Ice time of Joakim Ryan

Broadly speaking, the rest of the things he is doing may not be optimal, but the primary problem is the players not executing. Couture-Hertl-Meier has been the Sharks's only good line...I can understand the line blender when every other line just cannot get much going. Jones has been hot garbage, but I can sympathize with DeBoer wanting to play him through his struggles. Erik Karlsson, Pavelski, Vlasic, Thornton, Braun, Kane, and Labanc have had some poor moments, but what can DeBoer do? He can't make the players play well.

There are certain lineup combinations we would all like to see, but I think we understate how much control top players have over their own deployment, and we overstate how much line combinations and partners really matter.

 

[hohosaregood]

DeBoer certainly deserves to be criticized...but I only see him as the prime scapegoat in these cases:

1) Melker Karlsson over anyone else
2) Ice time of Joakim Ryan

Broadly speaking, the rest of the things he is doing may not be optimal, but the primary problem is the players not executing. Couture-Hertl-Meier has been the Sharks's only good line...I can understand the line blender when every other line just cannot get much going. Jones has been hot garbage, but I can sympathize with DeBoer wanting to play him through his struggles. Erik Karlsson, Pavelski, Vlasic, Thornton, Braun, Kane, and Labanc have had some poor moments, but what can DeBoer do? He can't make the players play well.

There are certain lineup combinations we would all like to see, but I think we understate how much control top players have over their own deployment, and we overstate how much line combinations and partners really matter.

Relevant to point 2 is the general deployment of the defense. Like what the heck is with the constant blender. Outside of the first 5 games, none of the defensemen have had a consistent pairing throughout a game. Ryan-Burns -> Karlsson-Burns -> Karlsson-Dillon -> Karlsson-Vlasic -> Braun-Vlasic -> Braun-Burns -> Burns-Vlasic. We've seen all of these pairings in each of the last 10 games.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Relevant to point 2 is the general deployment of the defense. Like what the heck is with the constant blender. Outside of the first 5 games, none of the defensemen have had a consistent pairing throughout a game. Ryan-Burns -> Karlsson-Burns -> Karlsson-Dillon -> Karlsson-Vlasic -> Braun-Vlasic -> Braun-Burns -> Burns-Vlasic. We've seen all of these pairings in each of the last 10 games.

Part of that is DeBoer's illogical dislike of Joakim Ryan (or perhaps he has the mandate to get the minutes of the other guys up), but part of the reason for the blender is because the players are underwhelming. Karlsson and Vlasic have yet to get going, and DeBoer is trying everything to change that.

I know I am somewhat alone in this opinion, but if you want to claim to be a #1/superstar defenseman (and get paid like it), your partner can never be an excuse for this standard of play. Vlasic, Karlsson, and Burns should be able to carry play with a bottom-pairing defenseman as their partner.

Note: It'd be fair to say that with the right partner, Karlsson could win the Norris or Vlasic could be the league's top shutdown defenseman. But, if the wrong partner makes either player a ho-hum 2nd-pairing guy, that is a major problem.

 

[JeremyTB]

DeBoer certainly deserves to be criticized...but I only see him as the prime scapegoat in these cases:

1) Melker Karlsson over anyone else
2) Ice time of Joakim Ryan

Broadly speaking, the rest of the things he is doing may not be optimal, but the primary problem is the players not executing. Couture-Hertl-Meier has been the Sharks's only good line...I can understand the line blender when every other line just cannot get much going. Jones has been hot garbage, but I can sympathize with DeBoer wanting to play him through his struggles. Erik Karlsson, Pavelski, Vlasic, Thornton, Braun, Kane, and Labanc have had some poor moments, but what can DeBoer do? He can't make the players play well.

There are certain lineup combinations we would all like to see, but I think we understate how much control top players have over their own deployment, and we overstate how much line combinations and partners really matter.

He could keep the Couture/Hertl/Meier line together when all 3 are in the line. He could have Jombo centering the 3rd line where he was having some success but he put him back with Pavelski. He could also keep the D pairings the same so they could get use to eachother.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

The benching of Ryan in favor of Heed concerns me. Its a pattern similar to benching Suomela and Chartier after good games. Changing lines did not work so now he is going to bench players and try other players with the hope that it just works.

Its not even that I am opposed to benching players who are playing poorly but he has benching both Ryan and Suomela this year without a real reason.

 

[Jaleel619]

I don't get that part aswell. I felt like I didn't need to watch the game to have ??'s. I liked kanes response.


Kanes response envisoned what kind of game strategy I figured DeBoer would need.


All forwards have to be defensively responsible, that way nobody can take advantage of our defensemen taking risks and scoring goals/plays.

That's exactly what Kane said needing forwards to wok hard on the puck in the defensive zone.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

DeBoer certainly deserves to be criticized...but I only see him as the prime scapegoat in these cases:

1) Melker Karlsson over anyone else
2) Ice time of Joakim Ryan

Broadly speaking, the rest of the things he is doing may not be optimal, but the primary problem is the players not executing. Couture-Hertl-Meier has been the Sharks's only good line...I can understand the line blender when every other line just cannot get much going. Jones has been hot garbage, but I can sympathize with DeBoer wanting to play him through his struggles. Erik Karlsson, Pavelski, Vlasic, Thornton, Braun, Kane, and Labanc have had some poor moments, but what can DeBoer do? He can't make the players play well.

There are certain lineup combinations we would all like to see, but I think we understate how much control top players have over their own deployment, and we overstate how much line combinations and partners really matter.

Part of that is DeBoer's illogical dislike of Joakim Ryan (or perhaps he has the mandate to get the minutes of the other guys up), but part of the reason for the blender is because the players are underwhelming. Karlsson and Vlasic have yet to get going, and DeBoer is trying everything to change that.

I know I am somewhat alone in this opinion, but if you want to claim to be a #1/superstar defenseman (and get paid like it), your partner can never be an excuse for this standard of play. Vlasic, Karlsson, and Burns should be able to carry play with a bottom-pairing defenseman as their partner.

Note: It'd be fair to say that with the right partner, Karlsson could win the Norris or Vlasic could be the league's top shutdown defenseman. But, if the wrong partner makes either player a ho-hum 2nd-pairing guy, that is a major problem.

Regarding the defense, that's just really not how it works. I can see where you're coming from, but there is not one defenseman in the NHL that plays at a Norris level without a partner that fits them well. Mind you, I did not say an elite partner; guys like Burns and Karlsson have won the Norris Trophy with partners like Paul Martin and Marc Method. But the key is that the partner fits them well. There is no defenseman in the NHL right now that plays at a Norris level without a partner that fits them well. If you're suggesting that because of this, there is not currently one defenseman in the NHL that can claim to be a #1/superstar defenseman and get paid like it, that's an interesting argument. It's not one that I would completely dismiss, given the success of a team like the 2016-2017 Pittsburgh Penguins, who had 3 decent defense pairs that fit each other well and absolutely no elite talent, but it's still not an argument that I would agree with.

And, this ties in well with my next point. The management of Joakim Ryan alone is a fireable offense. Since the start of the 2017-2018 season, Burns has played 938 even strength minutes with Joakim Ryan and 1017 even strength minutes without him. Here are some numbers over that time frame: (template loosely stolen from Didconya):

Even Strength	GF	GA	GF%	SCF%	HDCF%	OZFO%
Burns W/Ryan	42	33	56	54.54	53.54	58.23
Burns W/o Ryan	39	63	38.24	51.65	49.11	65.17

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

As we can see here, Burns and Ryan together are very strong, and Burns without Ryan is terrible. I'm not willing to accept that this is a product of Burns' deployment in these situations, given the fact that he actually gets a higher percentage of starts in the offensive zone without Ryan, which tells me his competition probably isn't that different either. Burns and Ryan together are a +9 at even strength, and Burns is a -24 without Ryan at even strength. These are massive sample sizes; 938 minutes and 75 goals with them together, 1017 minutes and 102 goals with them apart. We're also looking at about 900 scoring chances with them together, 1000 with them apart, and about 400 high danger chances together and about 450 apart. It was a very similar case in 2 years with Paul Martin; 56.32% GF (+19) with Burns/Martin and 47.17% GF (-6) with Burns without Ryan.

I don't want to drown you or anybody else in stats, because frankly, there is no point. In this case, less is probably more; we don't need to see anything more than the goals for percentage splits to conclude that Brent Burns is clearly a much, much better player when he is on the ice with Joakim Ryan. This is not some sort of voodoo magic that I am putting together with statistics; the only statistic that I really care about in this specific case is the goals for, because they are what wins hockey games, and the Sharks are much more likely to win hockey games when Brent Burns spends his time on the ice with Joakim Ryan next to him. And frankly, this discrepancy in performance is so large to the point where it's not even worth getting into the why, or the how, or the "this doesn't match what I see". These numbers paint a much, much clearer picture than any one or even 3 (3 coaches) sets of eyes could come to conclude.

Brent Burns, who is the team's best player, needs Joakim Ryan to translate his effectiveness to a strong goal share. He needed Paul Martin in the past, and DeBoer made him a 2x Norris finalist and 1x winner by simply stapling Burns to his hip. He did not get into the why, or the how, he simply played Burns almost exclusively with Paul Martin at even strength, and the result was that Burns had a historically incredible two seasons. Those certainly would not have happened if DeBoer had randomly made Paul Martin a healthy scratch in favor of some AHLer who is no better. Yes, Joakim Ryan made a mistake last game, but Paul Martin made plenty of mistakes as well.

No, it's not an ideal situation. An 8 million dollar defenseman with Burns' talents should be able to perform regardless of who he is paired with. But he clearly can not and at age 33, he never will be able to. It's a flaw but it's one that can easily be completely hidden away from the public forever by simply playing him with Joakim Ryan with Burns for the rest of his career. If Burns can play at a Hart Trophy level with Joakim Ryan, and we have Joakim Ryan on the roster, and the coach is choosing not to play Burns with Joakim Ryan, I am not going to place any sort of blame on anybody except for the coach. The coach deserves an absolute mountain of blame for refusing to put his franchise player in what is so obviously the ideal position to succeed, and instead putting his franchise player in a position where he has always failed to succeed.

The handling of Joakim Ryan, given Ryan's absolute importance to Burns' success, is a particularly confusing, senseless, and unorthodox decision that, entirely on its own, is just cause for firing Peter DeBoer.

 

[Coily]

The benching of Ryan in favor of Heed concerns me. Its a pattern similar to benching Suomela and Chartier after good games. Changing lines did not work so now he is going to bench players and try other players with the hope that it just works.

Its not even that I am opposed to benching players who are playing poorly but he has benching both Ryan and Suomela this year without a real reason.

**NOT DEFENDING THE COACHES**

One reason they gave for Suomela was that he needed a rest.

Again not defending the coaches, just relaying what Suomela said about missing a game.

 

[Jaleel619]

The handling of Joakim Ryan, given Ryan's absolute importance to Burns' success, is a particularly confusing, senseless, and unorthodox decision that, entirely on its own, is just cause for firing Peter DeBoer.

Ya that's why I wasn't too thrilled to watch the game, DeBoer literally manufactured an extra situation while Hertl is still getting healthy. Thank god there was a Barracuda game scheduled today, I will watch that now and pray Perron or Halgbewachs resumes their play.

I'd be ok with whatever Doug decides, but I am going to keep giving our coach the benefit of the doubt.

 

[hohosaregood]

Just listened to Couture's interview. He's always a cathartic listen after a loss.

 

[Jaleel619]

So im looking at our ideal line up availability in NHL 19 EA, if I was San Jose Sharks Coach I would do this.

Hertl-Couture-Meier
Kane-Pavelski-Donskoi
Sorenson-Thornton-Labanc
Halgbewachs-Suoemla-Goodrow

Dillon-Karlsson
Ryan-Burns ( sorry PDB but theres no other choice )
Vlasic-Braun


I think the forward line up is a good reflection of changing of the guard, Let the top line carry the heavy load, trust Kane to carry the 2nd line and have some consistency in the line up, while guys like Donskoi get going in plays that result in goals, (he's getting closer).

Thornton gets good line mates, and we start realistically giving other guys who should be getting a shot based on the line ups needs. Sorry but Tim Heed I support but we have Erik Karlsson. Use him while he's here and not have any distractions.