World Cup: SF: Croatia vs. England, 7/11/2018

[mw2noobbuster]

but you’re down a man and this is the World Cup semi final.

I agree, I don't know why Pickford wasn't in there.

 

[Crosbyfan]

I agree, I don't know why Pickford wasn't in there.

On the final set piece, I was looking to see if they might mostly move left, and go far side to Pickford, but he was apparently defending his net...why I don't know. The only reason I looked for it was it made no sense for him to be out of camera view otherwise, full strength or not.

 

[cgf]

Kramarić - 1: played little, but in that little time managed to leave an extremely negative imprint. His selfishness could've cost us dearly, it's absolutely unacceptable that he shot that in the ET rather than to pass it to Perišić so that he can seal the game, had England scored and won he'd be the main guilty party.

Kramaric is usually so selfless that I almost have to assume that he just didn't see Perisic until after he was already shooting.

 

[mw2noobbuster]

Kramaric is usually so selfless that I almost have to assume that he just didn't see Perisic until after he was already shooting.

I agree with this. Perisic was running slightly behind, wouldn't be surprised if Kramaric didn't even notice him.

 

[Ivan13]

Kramaric is usually so selfless that I almost have to assume that he just didn't see Perisic until after he was already shooting.

He didn't even get his head up, can't play with head in your feet.

 

[cgf]

He didn't even get his head up, can't play with head in your feet.

Come on man. Kramaric's link-up play & how he creates for others is typical the most special part of his game. I haven't re-watched this scene so if you have I'll bow to you on the analysis of this particular scene...but I assume he scanned the pitch at some point before not seeing Perisic & (incorrectly) thinking he was all alone. In which case it would be expected that he'd focus on getting his feet right & do everything he could to ensure as good of a shot as he could get off...that or just taking it to the corner, but with stoppage time not having been announced and the good scoring chance I think going for the 2 goal lead is the correct decision.

I know that Kramaric is the cat I said should've taken Mandzo's starting spot so that Mario could play as a tenacious joker, but no need to be unreasonable & focus only on one moment that he misplayed badly. Even if the moment got to him & his urge to become a national hero overwhelmed his self-less instincts, it's still just one moment & no reason to ignore the rest of his body of work.

Rebic, for example, is a much more selfish player but you're not griping about him

 

[Ivan13]

Come on man. Kramaric's link-up play & how he creates for others is typical the best parts of his game. I haven't re-watched this scene so if you have I'll sede the analysis of this particular scene to you, but I assume he scanned the pitch at some point before not seeing Perisic & (incorrectly) thinking he was all alone. In which case it would be expected that he'd focus on getting his feet right & do everything he could to ensure as good of a shot as he could get off.

I know that Kramaric is the cat I said should've taken Mandzo's starting spot so that Mario could play as a tenacious joker, but no need to be unreasonable & focus only on one moment that he misplayed badly. Even if the moment got to him & his urge to become a national hero overwhelmed his self-less instincts, it's still just one moment & no reason to ignore the rest of his body of work.

Rebic, for example, is a much more selfish player but you're not griping about him

I'm griping on that specific play, not his overall game up until now, as this was the only play of merit he was involved in and he butchered it completely. He received a ball on the right flank, made his way down into the box and not once had he raise his head to see if there is someone there and he took a poor shot. I do like him quite a bit and I bear no ill will towards him, quite the contrary I love the guy, but that play was a microcosm of poor choices and could've costed us dearly.

 

[cgf]

I'm griping on that specific play, not his overall game up until now, as this was the only play of merit he was involved in and he butchered it completely. He received a ball on the right flank, made his way down into the box and not once had he raise his head to see if there is someone there and he took a poor shot. I do like him quite a bit and I bear no ill will towards him, quite the contrary I love the guy, but that play was a microcosm of poor choices and could've costed us dearly.

Fair enough. That's so out of character for him that I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt that he had good reason to think he was all alone...but as I said, if he never even took a look then there's not much I can do but agree that in that scene he made a terrible error.

I just thought you were using that scene as a microcosm of why I was so silly for being so adamant about starting him ahead of cyborg-Mario

 

[Ivan13]

Fair enough. That's so out of character for him that I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt that he had good reason to think he was all alone...but as I said, if he never even took a look then there's not much I can do but agree that in that scene he made a terrible error.

I just thought you were using that scene as a microcosm of why I was so silly for being so adamant about starting him ahead of cyborg-Mario

Nah, just was so annoyed with him on that one I nearly threw my beer at the TV, couldn't believe he would do that of all people.

PS

On your Rebić comment, yeah he is a bit selfish, and quite frankly I feel whoever signs him will probably regret it as he is now playing on an insane high, but that is because he is put in a perfect place to play like this. I can't really think of a team that will allow him to play like that. Of all the guys on the team that will likely change teams (Vida, Broz, Perišić, Rebić, Ćaleta Car, Badelj etc) he is the most likely to flop spectacularly, and Vida and Broz are most likely to succeed.

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

Brozovic has been linked with Chelsea the past few summers, and I'd be very content with us bringing him in.

Vida was my MOTM yesterday, he covered Strinic's ass time and time again and looked rock solid. A few really really strong sweeping tackles, I love that style of defending.

Rebic has had a great tournament and I hope he has a good year for Frankfurt, although I wish he had panned out in Florence.

 

[Ivan13]

Brozovic has been linked with Chelsea the past few summers, and I'd be very content with us bringing him in.

Vida was my MOTM yesterday, he covered Strinic's ass time and time again and looked rock solid. A few really really strong sweeping tackles, I love that style of defending.

Rebic has had a great tournament and I hope he has a good year for Frankfurt, although I wish he had panned out in Florence.

I'm not sure how he would work there, and I really want him to go to a team where he will play. Same goes for Vida, that's why I hope he doesn't end up in Liverpool as I don't see him playing much there with Lovren and VVD.

 

[cgf]

Nah, just was so annoyed with him on that one I nearly threw my beer at the TV, couldn't believe he would do that of all people.

PS

On your Rebić comment, yeah he is a bit selfish, and quite frankly I feel whoever signs him will probably regret it as he is now playing on an insane high, but that is because he is put in a perfect place to play like this. I can't really think of a team that will allow him to play like that. Of all the guys on the team that will likely change teams (Vida, Broz, Perišić, Rebić, Ćaleta Car, Badelj etc) he is the most likely to flop spectacularly, and Vida and Broz are most likely to succeed.

lol that I understand completely, and I'm pretty sure my new neighbors think I'm croatian now because of my reaction when it happened, so I totally hear you. I'm just a little worried he could get a bit of a bum wrap at this WC given the attention Rebic is getting, Perisic being already well known & now Mario's heroics now reminding people that old man is still a machine

...which I guess wouldn't be the worst thing for keeping him in the BuLi since I do so love watching him playing in that beautiful Nagelsmann machine


Agreed about Rebic, he's in an ideal role for him to be a bit selfish...sorta like he has in Frankfurt...but if a top club moves for him & expects more than a joker from the bench, or rotational guy, who's individualism can spark them when they are lacking penetrating impulses; I think there's a good chance he disappoints. Although he is a good talent who's made massive strides these past two years, so I'm not yet certain that he won't be able to evolve his game at a big club if he lands with a great coach who specifically works with him on it.

Son was a similar BuLi forward when he left for England IMO. A dangerous weapon, as long as he's not relied upon too heavily and given a role where he can just pick up the ball to try & make something happen.

 

[Live in the Now]

I'm not sure how he would work there, and I really want him to go to a team where he will play. Same goes for Vida, that's why I hope he doesn't end up in Liverpool as I don't see him playing much there with Lovren and VVD.

We don't really need another CB even though he's very good, so no worries there. I don't believe the rumors related to him at all and he's older than the usual Liverpool transfer targets.

 

[Corto]

Agreed about Rebic, he's in an ideal role for him to be a bit selfish...sorta like he has in Frankfurt...but if a top club moves for him & expects more than a joker from the bench, or rotational guy, who's individualism can spark them when they are lacking penetrating impulses; I think there's a good chance he disappoints. Although he is a good talent who's made massive strides these past two years, so I'm not yet certain that he won't be able to evolve his game at a big club if he lands with a great coach who specifically works with him on it.

I'd say that's true. Whoever goes after him needs to be aware he functions much better on teams pressing and focused on quick transition and exploiting space.
If you're Bayern, I'm not sure he'd be that valuable for them when they mostly play against double block defenses.
That said, he has made MASSIVE strides in his game, so that's the bit I'm optimistic about.

Brozovic was put into a sort of a regista role somewhere around New Year, and went from a talented - but inconsistent midfielder - to Inter's MVP in 2018.
Normally, your regista plays alongside a holding midfielder (Pirlo had Ambrosini / Gattuso, for example), but Brozovic is a mix of both for Croatia and he's quietly been amazing, the role suits him, and it's the best I've seen him play.

Definitely agree with Ivan13, whoever goes after Brozovic or Vida, they'll end up hitting a jack pot.
Vida's 29, still got 3-4 years left at the top level, and he's fantastic. Like Srna, he chose to play football in Ukraine for a hefty paycheck and he built a two-way loyalty thing with Dynamo Kiev, but I've been saying he's the most underrated defender in Europe for a while.

As for Kramaric, I'm not sure if he didn't see Perisic or went for it himself. There were rumors Nagelsmann benched him early in the season because of selfishness.
Either way, he's very good, and will be even better, I don't hold it against him and I hope he grows further in Germany.

 

[cgf]

Early on Nagelsmann had to shake Kramaric of some bad habits, but after Julian broke him of them, Kramaric has been a revelation as a playmaking forward...who's even been used as one of the attacking midfielders in a double 8/10 role ahead of a lone 6, due to his work against the ball, clever interplay, and creative impulses. I love their midfield, both Vogt & Süle have been beautiful passers for them from the back, and Baumann is the third best german keeper with the ball at his feet...but Kramaric has been every bit as big a part of what makes them who they are when they are at their best. It's why Nagelsmann has been able to pair him with such limited poachers as Wagner, Szalai & now Belfodil.


Have to agree with you two about Brozovic...wanting to get him onto the pitch with Modric & Rakitic was a big part of why I went off about the 4-2-3-1 you used against Russia; which is I think what first drew Ivan's eye to my railing about Mandzo starting. Your midfield is just such a thing of beauty, why would you ever not utilize it fully? That trio is the key to your side & the anchor around which I build all hypothetical shapes that I'd like to see you try out.

...including a 3-1-4-2/3-5-2 where Strinic is replaced by Caleta Car (or maybe Jedvaj if he's been better in the NT shirt) and Perisic plays as the wingback opposite Vrsaljko. With two of Mandzo/Rebic/Kramaric paired up top to lead your press & drift into wider areas against the ball...to keep opposition fullbacks from pushing too high up & overloading you on the wings defensively.

But functionally that isn't too different from the 4-3-3 that you have played, so it's really just about my trying to get Strinic out of the lineup & one of your exciting young defenders into it

 

[Corto]

Dalic tried some lineups without Strinic and Pivaric, it didn't work.
He had to face it, we have very mediocre left backs, but a mediocre left back is still better than a CB playing LB.

Strinic is... Adequate, mostly. Yesterday he had a tough first half, but the 2nd was better, both defensively and offensively (though offensively his role was basically to be there and overlap with Perisic who did most of the work).
Dalic moved both him and Vrsaljko further up the pitch, forcing English fullbacks back and opening up the midfield. It helped defensively and offensively, and Strinic had an easier time because of it.

Cacic (yuck) tried Perisc at LWB once was Estonia, was a disaster.

Dalic's 4-3-3 lineup is as good as we can do, with maybe Kramaric in for one of Mandzukic or Rebic depending on the opponent IMO.
But most games at this stage, I'd start with the same lineup as Dalic.

 

[cgf]

Dalic tried some lineups without Strinic and Pivaric, it didn't work.
He had to face it, we have very mediocre left backs, but a mediocre left back is still better than a CB playing LB.

Strinic is... Adequate, mostly. Yesterday he had a tough first half, but the 2nd was better, both defensively and offensively (though offensively his role was basically to be there and overlap with Perisic who did most of the work).
Dalic moved both him and Vrsaljko further up the pitch, forcing English fullbacks back and opening up the midfield. It helped defensively and offensively, and Strinic had an easier time because of it.

Cacic (yuck) tried Perisc at LWB once was Estonia, was a disaster.

Dalic's 4-3-3 lineup is as good as we can do, with maybe Kramaric in for one of Mandzukic or Rebic depending on the opponent IMO.
But most games at this stage, I'd start with the same lineup as Dalic.

I saw you try CB at LB in a back 4, but never a back three with wingbacks...although Jedvaj has played both RB & LB for leverkusen & I feel like I'd trust him more defensively than I would Strinic...and I don't have a strong opinion about Pivaric yet.

I wouldn't take too much from how a back three looked under a shit coach. Like all tactics, it will look bad if poorly implemented, but that doesn't mean that a well implemented back three wouldn't work wonderfully. Especially since I'm pretty sure I saw Perisic look pretty good as a wing back in the BuLi...at least in a match or two.

So I'd have been curious to see how this new (seemingly competent) coach's back 3 would've looked, especially with your trio of young CBs that have been breaking through at the senior level in recent years.


It's too late now, but I wish Dalic had tested it out before the tourney.

 

[koyvoo]

England will get their chance at redemption vs Croatia in the inaugural UEFA nations league this September as both teams, along with Spain have been drawn into group 4 of the A league.

 

[Stray Wasp]

This could be a factor why England will never be a force; you won't find a single person in this country who prefers national team football over their club. Not a prayer. Club football has always and will always be the priority for proper football supporters in this country ainec.

It's club over country every time for me. Not even moving to London has changed my attitude on that score.

But even if every last Englishman breathing felt the opposite, it would matter naught unless they appreciated that the traditional English love of high-tempo, fairly north-south football is irreconcilable with winning major tournaments. A key characteristic of the English game remains trying to force affairs- depressingly often a highly-rated Englishman does something stupid, only for people to say, 'You can't take that out of his game, though, or else he'd not be the same player.' The correct answer to which is, 'Indeed. He'd be better than he is now, because he'd understand that the legitimacy of taking a risk is dependent on particular circumstances.'

As early as the 1890s, when the British were exporting the game, there were two distinct styles of play- the English school and the Scottish school. The 'scientific' way, with its emphasis on passing over running and dribbling, was the one used by the Scots. So the failing is older than the World Cup itself.

Look at cricket, rugby, rowing, and many other sports- the English are handy at codifying sports, but afterwards they prefer to sink into complacency and look down their noses at those who innovate until they find themselves lagging behind. And then they cry foul, and invent reasons why the foreigners' success isn't somehow legitimate, like aristocrats whose title dates back to the Norman Conquest watching their inherited estates decline while sneering at people in 'trade'.

Coincidentally enough, the one English coach to win the World Cup was Alf Ramsey- whose team were initially named as the 'wingless wonders' as a badge of mockery because he wasn't doing things the way they'd always been done.

We're talking about the country that produced Shakespeare- and the critics who insist Shakespeare couldn't have written those plays because he didn't attend university.

The contrast with Germany is stark- the Federal Republic won the 54 World Cup on character alone. Yet while that victory took on mythical proportions for the nation, in the cold light of day they didn't presume the world would stand still, so that in 1972 and 1974 they were winning with an utterly new style. Their decline coincided with their becoming wedded to wing-backs- that is, with believing that their style was somehow inherently endowed with greatness. They thought about what had gone wrong, looked about them, and reinvented themselves again, and added another World Cup to the collection. (They'd have won even more had their coach not become overly enamoured with his own creation, but that too carries a useful warning for anyone who cares to notice).

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

England will get their chance at redemption vs Croatia in the inaugural UEFA nations league this September as both teams, along with Spain have been drawn into group 4 of the A league.

And if you're new to the sport and have gotten the appetite for international football during this World Cup, don't watch those matches under any circumstances. Just don't.

 

[koyvoo]

And if you're new to the sport and have gotten the appetite for international football during this World Cup, don't watch those matches under any circumstances. Just don't.

It’ll be interesting to see how seriously it’s taken.

Seeing as how it’s the alternate route to the Euro’s, I can see if a big nation slips during the group qualifying phase and finds themselves eliminated, they’ll definitely turn up to play here. Also, there may be a pride thing at stake as the nations currently in the A league for the inaugural season probably won’t look to good being relegated to and then playing in the B leagues the next season.

I don’t expect it to be a World Cup or a Euro in prestige, but it would not be the Confederations Cup either. It’ll definitely be better than the useless friendlies it’s mostly doing away with.

 

[Rob]

And if you're new to the sport and have gotten the appetite for international football during this World Cup, don't watch those matches under any circumstances. Just don't.

Why not?

 

[cgf]

It’ll be interesting to see how seriously it’s taken.

Seeing as how it’s the alternate route to the Euro’s, I can see if a big nation slips during the group qualifying phase and finds themselves eliminated, they’ll definitely turn up to play here. Also, there may be a pride thing at stake as the nations currently in the A league for the inaugural season probably won’t look to good being relegated to and then playing in the B leagues the next season.

I don’t expect it to be a World Cup or a Euro in prestige, but it would not be the Confederations Cup either. It’ll definitely be better than the useless friendlies it’s mostly doing away with.

Jogi or Bierhoff announced that we were basically going to treat it exactly like we did the Confed Cup. As a place to test young players and prime aged guys that Jogi hasn't given a chance to yet.

Granted, if we had treated this WC the way we treated the confed cup we might still be playing, but it's not like Jogi & co. realize that.

Why not?

Because the games are likely to be little more than glorified friendlies...which generally can feature some utterly dire football.

...although the lack of stakes could inversely help some of the cowards running most NTs show a little boldness & try out this whole "creativeness" thing that the kids keep talking about...at least before proceeding to ignore any insights that that may have provided them when the matches that matter return.

 

[cgf]

It's club over country every time for me. Not even moving to London has changed my attitude on that score.

But even if every last Englishman breathing felt the opposite, it would matter naught unless they appreciated that the traditional English love of high-tempo, fairly north-south football is irreconcilable with winning major tournaments. A key characteristic of the English game remains trying to force affairs- depressingly often a highly-rated Englishman does something stupid, only for people to say, 'You can't take that out of his game, though, or else he'd not be the same player.' The correct answer to which is, 'Indeed. He'd be better than he is now, because he'd understand that the legitimacy of taking a risk is dependent on particular circumstances.'

As early as the 1890s, when the British were exporting the game, there were two distinct styles of play- the English school and the Scottish school. The 'scientific' way, with its emphasis on passing over running and dribbling, was the one used by the Scots. So the failing is older than the World Cup itself.

Look at cricket, rugby, rowing, and many other sports- the English are handy at codifying sports, but afterwards they prefer to sink into complacency and look down their noses at those who innovate until they find themselves lagging behind. And then they cry foul, and invent reasons why the foreigners' success isn't somehow legitimate, like aristocrats whose title dates back to the Norman Conquest watching their inherited estates decline while sneering at people in 'trade'.

Coincidentally enough, the one English coach to win the World Cup was Alf Ramsey- whose team were initially named as the 'wingless wonders' as a badge of mockery because he wasn't doing things the way they'd always been done.

We're talking about the country that produced Shakespeare- and the critics who insist Shakespeare couldn't have written those plays because he didn't attend university.

The contrast with Germany is stark- the Federal Republic won the 54 World Cup on character alone. Yet while that victory took on mythical proportions for the nation, in the cold light of day they didn't presume the world would stand still, so that in 1972 and 1974 they were winning with an utterly new style. Their decline coincided with their becoming wedded to wing-backs- that is, with believing that their style was somehow inherently endowed with greatness. They thought about what had gone wrong, looked about them, and reinvented themselves again, and added another World Cup to the collection. (They'd have won even more had their coach not become overly enamoured with his own creation, but that too carries a useful warning for anyone who cares to notice).

I'm really glad that the English FA knows enough not to need to bother listening to pish like this. It would be annoying if your NT ever learned how to play football.

 

[koyvoo]

Jogi or Bierhoff announced that we were basically going to treat it exactly like we did the Confed Cup. As a place to test young players and prime aged guys that Jogi hasn't given a chance to yet.

Granted, if we had treated this WC the way we treated the confed cup we might still be playing, but it's not like Jogi & co. realize that.

Maybe Germany has the luxury to do that but if a relatively bigger team finds themselves in the same situation as Holland did the last Euro qualifiers and has a second lifeline to Euro 2020 via this tournament, you don’t think they’re going to to take it seriously at that point?

For now, there are more than one season planned. If it’s not given some importance at this point, I think that when we see bigger nations and maybe even a giant get relegated into the B league, it won’t get good press in that nation and could be looked at as an embarrassment.