Sergei Zubov vs Shea Weber

[Filthy Dangles]

Who was the better defenseman?

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[lawrence]

Zubov. He dictated the game much better . that said, hard to really make a true comparison. Zubov played on elite teams, with elite talent, Weber never really had that luxury. both are awesome in different ways for sure, but this one is easily Zubov for me. he's a legend.

 

[Unspecified]

Zubov by a large margin. People forget that Zubov averaged 52 points a season for 11 years in a row (96-07).

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Zubov by a large margin. People forget that Zubov averaged 52 points a season for 11 years in a row (96-07).

I think it's pretty close..... Weber already has more career goals than Zuby. And Zuby played in a higher scoring era than Webs, so his points will be higher. Of course Zubey was still better offensively though.

I know a lot of the advanced metrics don't particulary paint Weber in a great light but Zubov had a reputation as being not so great defensively especially early on in his career.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

The Norris trophy isn’t perfect, but looking at their voting records is a decent starting point. (I’m only looking at years where they got at least 5% of the votes, to disregard years where they may have received two or three throaway votes).

Zubov has finished 3rd, 4th and 9th in Norris voting - pretty good.

Weber has finished 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 6th and 7th. (Not only was Weber runner-up twice, his two losses were by the two smallest margins in the history of the trophy going back to 1954).

The two arguments for Zubov are he was much better in the playoffs, and he played during an era that featured better top talent on the blueline (so it was harder for him to earn high voting placements). Both of those points are valid, but there’s such a massive difference in their voting results that I’d have a tough time voting for Zubov.

 

[BillNy]

I honestly believe Sergei Zubov is the best eligible player not in the Hall of Fame. Hockey Outsider above makes a fine point about Norris voting, but my issue here is that every time I've seen Weber as a Norris finalist I've sorta thought "eh... really?" Weber is/was a really good defenseman, but Zubov was a game changer in a way Weber never really was for me. Weber was a game disruptor, sure. A great one. That's what defense is about. But Zubov was the height of "play defense by having the puck in the other team's zone" defensemen.

 

[Stephen]

The Norris trophy isn’t perfect, but looking at their voting records is a decent starting point. (I’m only looking at years where they got at least 5% of the votes, to disregard years where they may have received two or three throaway votes).

Zubov has finished 3rd, 4th and 9th in Norris voting - pretty good.

Weber has finished 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 6th and 7th. (Not only was Weber runner-up twice, his two losses were by the two smallest margins in the history of the trophy going back to 1954).

The two arguments for Zubov are he was much better in the playoffs, and he played during an era that featured better top talent on the blueline (so it was harder for him to earn high voting placements). Both of those points are valid, but there’s such a massive difference in their voting results that I’d have a tough time voting for Zubov.

I feel like the calibre of defensemen who overlapped Zubov's career are superior to Weber's era, that's something else to consider.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

I feel like the calibre of defensemen who overlapped Zubov's career are superior to Weber's era, that's something else to consider.

it really isnt though

Bourque
Leetch
Pronger

Lidstrom overlaps

Chara
Karlsson
Doughty
Keith

 

[Lonewolfe2015]

Zubov has finished 3rd, 4th and 9th in Norris voting - pretty good.

Weber has finished 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 6th and 7th. (Not only was Weber runner-up twice, his two losses were by the two smallest margins in the history of the trophy going back to 1954).

This is exactly why it's a very close decision between the two. You can't pick wrong, it should come down to whether you prefer Weber's defensive prime or Zubov's offensive prime. There's arguments for both and an argument that part of Weber's defensive success came alongside two really really good defenders in their own right (Suter, Josi) on a club that has always been strong defensively. But of course Zubov had a pretty darn good team himself to work with.

 

[GlitchMarner]

it really isnt though

Bourque
Leetch
Pronger

Lidstrom overlaps

Chara
Karlsson
Doughty
Keith

Zubov had to compete against Chelios, Stevens and MacInnis as well.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I'm a huge Weber apologist but Zubov might be one of the only d-men who flew as underrated as Shea.

 

[Regal]

On the Norris vote front, I think it's important to note how their styles typically meshed with what voters preferred. Weber was the big, tough, physical prototype defenseman whereas more cerebral types who used their sticks more and controlled the pace like Zubov have historically been pretty overlooked except when they score a ton (it's not surprising that Zubov's 89 point season earned him a 4th place Norris finish when he was better in Dallas and only finished higher once) That's starting to change, but it's still an issue today, let alone 15-20 years ago

 

[Stephen]

it really isnt though

Bourque
Leetch
Pronger

Lidstrom overlaps

Chara
Karlsson
Doughty
Keith

Add Coffey, Lidstrom, MacInnis, Niedermayer, Chelios, Stevens, Blake.

 

[Machinehead]

Zubov was better on both sides of the puck. It's actually closer offensively.

 

[kp61c]

zubov smoked like a chimney when he played in the nhl and still it's him ainec.

 

[Felidae]

Add Coffey, Lidstrom, MacInnis, Niedermayer, Chelios, Stevens, Blake.

Zubov had to compete against Chelios, Stevens and MacInnis as well.

1996 onwards is where Zubov accumulated the majority of his Norris finishes. His competition's Norris finishes

Bourque: 2, 3, 7, 7, 7

Chelios: 1, 4, 6

Coffey. None

MacInnis: 1, 2, 7, 8, 8

Blake: 1, 3, 3, 4, 5, 8, 17

Lidstrom: 6 Norris trophies

Pronger: 1, 3, 3, 3, 5, 7, 10

Stevens: 3, 4, 5, 6, 10

Zubov's most consistent competition were the last 4.


Meanwhile from 2008-2014, the time of Weber's best norris finishes and his competition's norris finishes


Karlsson: 1, 1, 7, 18

Doughty: 2, 3, 6, 9, 10

Chara: 1, 2, 3, 3, 5, 8

Lidstrom: 1, 3, 4, 5

Keith: 1, 1, 6, 9, 13

I think the competition argument is overstated, specifically with the veteran defenseman that had their prime during the 80s and early 90s.

And even then im not sure the competition gap outweighs Webers superior Norris finishes

 

[Stephen]

Well, the thing about the veteran defensemen from the 80s is it's a double edged sword, because Bourque, Coffey, Leetch and Chelios completely dominated that conversation. Between 1985 and 1997, they were the only four guys to win a Norris Trophy. Zubov had a Norris calibre year in 1994, but I'm not sure a 24 year old Russian was going to beat anyone out.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Several of you commented that Zubov faced tougher competition during his prime (I made the same comment, though maybe not as clearly as I could have).

During Zubov's prime (1994 to 2007), he was 13th in the league in Norris trophy votes - behind Lidstrom, Pronger, Bourque, Chelios, Niedermayer, MacInnis, Blake, Leetch, Stevens, Coffey, Chara and Gonchar.

During Weber's prime (shorter - from 2009 to 2017), he was 3rd in the league in Norris trophy votes - behind only Karlsson and Chara (and ahead of Doughty, Keith, etc).

Now, as I mentioned, Weber has a weak playoff resume for a player of his calibre (which isn't reflected in the Norris voting), but I have a tough time ranking a player who was 13th in his own era over one who was 3rd in his.

 

[Silky mitts]

Weber was arguably the most productive defenseman over a 7 year span, Zubov was never a top 5 guy (2 top 4 Norris finishes like 12 years apart doesn’t mean he’d be one of top 5 guys you’d take to win a game that year)

 

[ScaredStreit]

Zubov ainec.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Weber was arguably the most productive defenseman over a 7 year span, Zubov was never a top 5 guy (2 top 4 Norris finishes like 12 years apart doesn’t mean he’d be one of top 5 guys you’d take to win a game that year)

Not only did Zubov finish top 5 twice (and top 3 once) in norris voting, he was very deserving of those honours. Russians in general didn’t get any favours when it came to awards voting in the 1990s. Peak Zubov was a top 5 defenceman more often than not, going by the eye test.

 

[Silky mitts]

Not only did Zubov finish top 5 twice (and top 3 once) in norris voting, he was very deserving of those honours. Russians in general didn’t get any favours when it came to awards voting in the 1990s. Peak Zubov was a top 5 defenceman more often than not, going by the eye test.

Don’t disagree with that but I’d still take my #1 NHL dman over a 7 year span with my 6th or 7th best dman over 13 year span which is probably where I’d have Zubov and would place him top 5 most of that span.

 

[DJN21]

Zubov for me but just wanted to add this is a great poll and get discussion, hats off to OP

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Don’t disagree with that but I’d still take my #1 NHL dman over a 7 year span with my 6th or 7th best dman over 13 year span which is probably where I’d have Zubov and would place him top 5 most of that span.

Fair enough. Personally I feel this comparison is all about how highly people rate Weber.

 

[Regal]

Fair enough. Personally I feel this comparison is all about how highly people rate Weber.

Yea, opinions on him have changed so much in the last couple years, that he's one guy where his resume on paper looks way better than his current reputation. This poll in 2015 would have probably been heavily in Weaver's favour