Speculation: Sens talk about stuff and things (Old Olle)

[BondraTime]

NO! Because the coaches they have had during those times were *****'s who wouldn't play the tough guys at the time they should have. JM got schooled by Pat Quinn in numerous playoffs & never learned. EK got punched in the head by Boyle & PM had to bring in Calkner in the next game to make amends. Then when Tanner Glass was embarrassing our soft team GB had to swallow his pride & bring Neil back to tame him. There are countless other examples over the yrs of this franchise being pushed around & embarrassed in so many games including playoff games.

They are the very definition of insanity doing the same thing yr after yr & expecting a different result. Until they get tougher, until they are the team that pushes other team's around they will continue to be a welcome mat getting walked on for the rest of the league. Hell, even other teams coming into Ott for their games know this will be an easy game for them with next to no hitting because Ott is not a hard team to play against.

Ottawa came 5th in the league in hits in 2017-18, and have finished top 5, 6 times since 2000

St. Louis came 24th this year in hits, Boston came 15th, the Sens came 19th...

 

[aragorn]

Ottawa came 5th in the league in hits in 2017-18, and have finished top 5, 6 times since 2000

St. Louis came 24th this year in hits, the Sens came 19th...

So what? St Louis came up big in the playoffs when it counted. If you like a regular season team than Ott has had plenty of them, but when it comes to the playoffs when the going gets tough, Ott has to go & find their tough guy to come in & bail them out, usually when it's too late.

 

[BondraTime]

So what? St Louis came up big in the playoffs when it counted. If you like a regular season team than Ott has had plenty of them, but when it comes to the playoffs when the going gets tough, Ott has to go & find their tough guy to come in & bail them out, usually when it's too late.

So what? You are the one who just said there was no hitting by Ottawa, when they are empirically a team with more hits then the others. Just correcting your misconception.

St. Louis came 10th out of 16 in hits per game this playoffs. Almost like the physical play wasn't what won them the Cup?

Boston was 12th out of 16.

6 of the top 8 teams in hits this playoffs were eliminated in the first round, the other 2 were in the 2nd.

 

[SpezDispenser]

Dorion did say he will be dealing prospects and picks because they just have to many. I’m 100% against trading any of Wolanin, Brannstrom or Chabot, but the club does have a tendency to overpay for (Duchesne, Burrows, Brassard, Phaneuf) - and undersell Hoffman, Zibby, Stone, Duchene, Karlsson, Bishop etc so I don’t think this will go well, but they’ll sell it as ‘we have depth so dealt from a position of strength) type of move to try and lessen the impact.

My guess is we do something like

EDM: Wolanin
OTT: Kassian

And say big teams with big wingers won in the playoffs so we need big wingers.

Holy crap! Wolanin for Kassian my backside!

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

A free asset is a free asset. Sweet

 

[aragorn]

So what? You are the one who just said there was no hitting by Ottawa, when they are empirically a team with more hits then the others. Just correcting your misconception.

And you believe those stats I suppose. Pushing a guy into the boards is not a hit IMO but I bet it gets registered as one & why is it that the home team often has more hits than the visiting team? Stats are such bullshit at times.

 

[BondraTime]

And you believe those stats I suppose. Pushing a guy into the boards is not a hit IMO but I bet it gets registered as one & why is it that the home team often has more hits than the visiting team? Stats are such bull**** at times.

Well yeah, I believe the NHL tracked stat, guess that's strange.

Here, have a look at the stats from this playoffs. The teams that made it far weren't hitting much, and the teams that were out quick were throwing the most hits.

https://www.foxsports.com/nhl/team-...sort=9&time=2&pos=0&team=1&qual=1&sortOrder=0

If you check the puck possession numbers, the teams that didn't hit as much are at the top, and the teams that did a lot of hitting are t the bottom. The teams that did well in the playoffs are at the top, the teams that did bad in the playoffs are at the bottom.

 

[aragorn]

Here, have a look at the stats from this playoffs. The teams that made it far weren't hitting much, and the teams that were out quick were throwing the most hits.

https://www.foxsports.com/nhl/team-...sort=9&time=2&pos=0&team=1&qual=1&sortOrder=0

I could give two shits about stats, the eye test showed me that St Louis played a much tougher game than everyone they played, they out worked them & slowly pounded them down & out lasted them. Stats are for losers.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

And yet those two were there as well during that success along with Neil preventing those two from getting the crap beat out of them. The sooner you realize that this team needs to be tougher, the sooner to a playoff spot they will be, otherwise they will continue to go nowhere with these small soft players. NOBODY is afraid to play the Sens NOBODY!

LOL at the idea of NHL players being scared of other players in this day and age. This isn't Slapshot with Ogie Oglethorpe running around. No one worries about playing the Sens because they know they can pad their stats against a team that never has the puck. In large part the Sens never have the puck because Boro, Smith and Ceci, etc. handle the puck like it is a live grenade.

Ottawa needs BETTER players. If they use grit to achieve their goal (prime Simmonds) or speed (Duchene, Mackinnon) or smarts (Stone) or skill (P. Kane) we need more of them. Tough players who are bad are just bad as small soft players. Professional sports is a results oriented business and unless you are achieving something it doesn't matter how big and tough you are.

I can guarantee you that players worry a whole lot more about playing against Johnny Gaudreau than they do about playing Zack Kassian or Mark Borowiecki.

 

[BondraTime]

I could give two ****s about stats, the eye test showed me that St Louis played a much tougher game than everyone they played, they out worked them & slowly pounded them down & out lasted them. Stats are for losers.

Yeah, they were better than other teams, the eye test showed that. 5'10 Jayden scwartz was a huge difference maker, as was 5'11 Vince Dunn, as was 6'5 Colton Parayko. They are good hockey players, their team was full of them. Skill and compete come in all sizes, if you can get both, perfect. Harpur has no skill.

They had mobile and smart D, they had snipers and hard working forwards with skill. When your 6'5 D in Parayko can skate and pass as well as a skilled forward, that's great. If we had big guys like that, we'd ride them. Unfortunately our big guys offer nothing aside from size and physicality, neither of which helps aside from bring our hit total up.

Thanks I guess? I'm not a stats guy, but this is as simple as 123. They threw less hits than a majority of the teams because they had the puck with their skill and transition game, from having a skilled backend and skilled forwards. They were a hard working, skilled team. Not a Big, bruising team.

I hit a nerve, I won't say what I think obsessing over size is, cheers

 

[aragorn]

LOL at the idea of NHL players being scared of other players in this day and age. This isn't Slapshot with Ogie Oglethorpe running around. No one worries about playing the Sens because they know they can pad their stats against a team that never has the puck. In large part the Sens never have the puck because Boro, Smith and Ceci, etc. handle the puck like it is a live grenade.

Ottawa needs BETTER players. If they use grit to achieve their goal (prime Simmonds) or speed (Duchene, Mackinnon) or smarts (Stone) or skill (P. Kane) we need more of them. Tough players who are bad are just bad as small soft players. Professional sports is a results oriented business and unless you are achieving something it doesn't matter how big and tough you are.

I can guarantee you that players worry a whole lot more about playing against Johnny Gaudreau than they do about playing Zack Kassian or Mark Borowiecki.

Until they are knocked out of the game because they didn't have their head up or didn't realize those guys were on the ice. Look I agree that you need a combination of players & there are plenty of big guys with skill & speed & I would prefer they build their team with those kind of players than guys who are regular season players & disappear when the going gets tough. The day Ott wins a cup with these small players I will concede defeat, but I'm going to guess we could be more than a decade away from that happening, it hasn't helped Montreal.

 

[Gil Gunderson]

St. Louis’ big players could actually play NHL-level hockey.

And I don’t remember seeing Chicago and Pittsburgh bully their way to Cups with big useless players, but I’m sure those examples will be ignored.

 

[aragorn]

Yeah, they were better than other teams, the eye test showed that. 5'10 Jayden scwartz was a huge difference maker, as was 5'11 Vince Dunn, as was 6'5 Colton Parayko. They are good hockey players, their team was full of them. Skill and compete come in all sizes, if you can get both, perfect. Harpur has no skill.

They had mobile and smart D, they had snipers and hard working forwards with skill. When your 6'5 D in Parayko can skate and pass as well as a skilled forward, that's great. If we had big guys like that, we'd ride them. Unfortunately our big guys offer nothing aside from size and physicality, neither of which helps aside from bring our hit total up.

Thanks I guess? I'm not a stats guy, but this is as simple as 123. They threw less hits than a majority of the teams because they had the puck with their skill and transition game, from having a skilled backend and skilled forwards. They were a hard working, skilled team. Not a Big, bruising team.

I hit a nerve, I won't say what I think obsessing over size is, cheers

St Louis has a pretty big defence who are also skilled & good skaters, I wouldn't mind if Ott copied them, but they don't. They keep going back to the small soft defencemen who get pushed around & can't stop bigger NHL forwards. I'm tired of hearing how these skilled little players are going to help in possession & transition when I see them get beat defensively constantly & outworked for loose pucks & duck to avoid a hit or not go into the corners for pucks.

As I said before, when the day comes & they actually win something I will concede my point but IMO that day is a long time away. I've been having this argument with people on hear for over a decade now & Ott has yet to win with these kind of players, what's another decade?

 

[stempniaksen]

St. Louis’ big players could actually play NHL-level hockey.

And I don’t remember seeing Chicago and Pittsburgh bully their way to Cups with big useless players, but I’m sure those examples will be ignored.

Or Detroit.

Only teams to have the won the cup post-lockout that fit that narrative are the Kings and Ducks (mayyyyyybe Caps). And those teams had a lot more going for them than just size.

 

[Gil Gunderson]

St Louis has a pretty big defence who are also skilled & good skaters, I wouldn't mind if Ott copied them, but they don't. They keep going back to the small soft defencemen who get pushed around & can't stop bigger NHL forwards. I'm tired of hearing how these skilled little players are going to help in possession & transition when I see them get beat defensively constantly & outworked for loose pucks & duck to avoid a hit or not go into the corners for pucks.

As I said before, when the day comes & they actually win something I will concede my point but IMO that day is a long time away. I've been having this argument with people on hear for over a decade now & Ott has yet to win with these kind of players, what's another decade?

They already have from 2015-2017.

 

[stempniaksen]

As I said before, when the day comes & they actually win something I will concede my point but IMO that day is a long time away. I've been having this argument with people on hear for over a decade now & Ott has yet to win with these kind of players, what's another decade?

You're attributing the lack of success of an entire franchise (over 2 decades) to a lack of size? This is the kind of out there, idiotic reasoning we're talking about. The Sens have had many different styles, under many different coaches though the years. They've had big players and small players. There are lots of reasons this franchise doesn't have a cup. Attributing the lack of success to one false narrative is insanity.

 

[aragorn]

You're attributing the lack of success of an entire franchise (over 2 decades) to a lack of size? This is the kind of out there, idiotic reasoning we're talking about. The Sens have had many different styles, under many different coaches though the years. They've had big players and small players. There are lots of reasons this franchise doesn't have a cup. Attributing the lack of success to one false narrative is insanity.

They don't have a cup because they continually draft & trade for smaller skilled players when they could have had bigger, tougher, skilled players. They constantly go back to the same style which hasn't yet gotten them a cup. When they win a cup with these players than I will concede my point but I just don't see that happening anytime soon. But I would agree that it's not attributed to that one fact, there are other variables such as owner, the wrong GM, the wrong coaches, as well as some wrong players.

 

[BondraTime]

St Louis has a pretty big defence who are also skilled & good skaters, I wouldn't mind if Ott copied them, but they don't. They keep going back to the small soft defencemen who get pushed around & can't stop bigger NHL forwards. I'm tired of hearing how these skilled little players are going to help in possession & transition when I see them get beat defensively constantly & outworked for loose pucks & duck to avoid a hit or not go into the corners for pucks.

As I said before, when the day comes & they actually win something I will concede my point but IMO that day is a long time away. I've been having this argument with people on hear for over a decade now & Ott has yet to win with these kind of players, what's another decade?

They haven't won a cup, regardless...

They have had D cores where the shortest D was 6'0 (Bell) and 4/5 of the others were 6'3 or bigger.

This is the team that's acquired 6'6 Sutton and 6'4 Commidore for the playoffs. They had a pair for close to a decade of 6'3 Phillips and 6'2 Volchenkov.

Schubert 6'3, Mezaros 6'3, Kuba 6'4, Methot 6'4, Richardson 6'3, Smith 6'4, Carkner 6'4. The list goes on.

This team has had many more big D than small D, that can't be argued.

I'm not naive enough to say that when the day comes that they win with this type of lineup I'll concede anything, the team hasn't won anything with either or, or any kind of mix. They haven't won. When they do, it will likely be because they have one of the most skilled teams, regardless of size.

 

[aragorn]

They haven't won a cup, regardless...

They have had D cores where the shortest D was 6'0 (Bell) and 4/5 of the others were 6'3 or bigger.

This is the team that's acquired 6'6 Sutton and 6'4 Commidore for the playoffs. They had a pair for close to a decade of 6'3 Phillips and 6'2 Volchenkov.

Schubert 6'3, Mezaros 6'3, Kuba 6'4, Methot 6'4, Richardson 6'3, Smith 6'4, Carkner 6'4. The list goes on.

This team has had many more big D than small D, that can't be argued.

I'm not naive enough to say that when the day comes that they win with this type of lineup I'll concede anything, the team hasn't won anything with either or, or any kind of mix. They haven't won. When they do, it will likely be because they have one of the most skilled teams, regardless of size.

Again so what? So you pick the guys that suck & were near the end of their careers to make your point? We haven't won with EK either, there has to be a better middle ground & I have consistently said to acquire bigger tougher players with skill.

 

[stempniaksen]

Again so what? So you pick the guys that suck & were near the end of their careers to make your point? We haven't won with EK either, there has to be a better middle ground & I have consistently said to acquire bigger tougher players with skill.

Alfie and Karlsson took these teams (kicking and screaming in some cases) closer to a cup win than anyone in the history of the franchise.

How were the teams before Alfie's arrival (where the best player was 6'4) or the year since EK left (where the best players were 6'04, 6'3 and 6'2). I know I'm leaving out context here, that's on purpose in this case.

Size is great if it comes with skill and smarts. Size is useless without the other two attributes (see Gill, Hal).

 

[aragorn]

Alfie and Karlsson took these teams (kicking and screaming in some cases) closer to a cup win than anyone in the history of the franchise.

How were the teams before Alfie's arrival (where the best player was 6'4) or the year since EK left (where the best players were 6'04, 6'3 and 6'2). I know I'm leaving out context here, that's on purpose in this case.

Size is great if it comes with skill and smarts. Size is useless without the other two attributes (see Gill, Hal).

I would argue that the addition of Heatley had much more to do with the Sens going to the cup finals, although I agree Alfie played great that yr too, as did Spezza. Oh, sorry, are they both bigger that Alfredsson?

And it's even worse if they don't have size, skills & smarts. The team sucked with EK on it too & since he left they also traded away their other good players, so that argument doesn't work. See Connacher.

 

[BondraTime]

Again so what? So you pick the guys that suck & were near the end of their careers to make your point? We haven't won with EK either, there has to be a better middle ground & I have consistently said to acquire bigger tougher players with skill.

Cheers!

 

[stempniaksen]

I would argue that the addition of Heatley had much more to do with the Sens going to the cup finals, although I agree Alfie played great that yr too, as did Spezza. Oh, sorry, are they both bigger that Alfredsson?

And it's even worse if they don't have size, skills & smarts. The team sucked with EK on it too & since he left they also traded away their other good players, so that argument doesn't work. See Connacher.

If you think Heatley and/or Spezza drove the bus during that we, unfortunately, don't have anything else to discuss. And I say that one one of the bigger all-time Spezza backers on these boards.

Funny you use those two as examples though since, other than size, they are about the furthest type of player you would seemingly be a fan of.

 

[aragorn]

If you think Heatley and/or Spezza drove the bus during that we, unfortunately, don't have anything else to discuss. And I say that one one of the bigger all-time Spezza backers on these boards.

Funny you use those two as examples though since, other than size, they are about the furthest type of player you would seemingly be a fan of.

IMO Heatley was by far the best acquisition this team ever had & he had more to do with Ottawa changing their style & making the cup finals. I was not a Spezza fan either but I can't deny his contributions to the team, same for Alfredsson.

 

[aragorn]

Cheers!

Cheers to you as well.