OT: Sens Lounge XCX: Posted to the limit, one more time edition

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Knave

Registered User
Mar 6, 2007
21,627
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So the government bought a pipeline project, the Alberta government is full on managing supply.

What exactly is the protest about? It's like a kid having a tantrum. "MAKE OIL PRICES HIGH AGAIN DAD". And now it's turned into a bunch of nutjob causes instead of one dumb anti-Trudeau cause. The CBC leading the protest charge by interviewing some guy bitching about illegal immigration made me laugh.

It's pretty obvious this isn't people protesting fuel prices and the high cost of living like in France. It's a bunch of middle-aged greedy men upset they're not getting their way and who don't like the look and party affiliation of the people elected to government.
 

FunkySeeFunkyDoo

Registered User
Feb 3, 2009
5,039
2,680
Ottawa
I have. I still am a big believer that it will one day be the forefront in how we exchange value but it's incredibly hard to know what that will look like (Bitcoin, Ethereum, Facebook coin, government backed cryptos). It will still probably take several decades to play out.

I can believe that government backed cryptos have a future, and will someday be the way all national currencies are implemented.

BUT -- I don't see how investing in Bitcoin or anything like that today leads you to making money when that outcome presents itself.
 

BonkTastic

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Nov 9, 2010
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It's about jobs or lack thereof.

It's about a fundamental misunderstanding among the general population about global oil trends and how oil prices are affected by large international bodies, and that when oil prices dip due to the market demands, that the oil infrastructure shifts to to accomodate the new pricing structure.

I get that people are angry that the oil companies have ceased a lot of Canadian operations due to the fact that the value of oil has gone down 30-40% over the past few years, but blaming the federal government over it seems utterly ludicrous.
 

Do Make Say Think

& Yet & Yet
Jun 26, 2007
51,157
9,904
Not at all. They want employment.

Sure. They also want.... Other stuff.

Dzx8gcvVYAEWMTP.jpg


However there was like 60 of them on day 1 and today most of them were chilling at Tim Horton's or Bridgehead.

A lot of noise over not much. As someone had said elsewhere, First Nations walking to Ottawa get less coverage than a bunch of angry white people driving to Ottawa and asking for free gas along the way.
 
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Do Make Say Think

& Yet & Yet
Jun 26, 2007
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I have no idea if this is true but it certainly sounds possible since grifting is what is hot these days:



Definitely might explain why quite a few of them were just hanging around coffee shops instead of protesting today.
 
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AchtzehnBaby

Global Matador
Mar 28, 2013
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Yeah, they just want 6 figure salaries with no education or skills.

Wow! Did you really just say that?

Having worked in the industry and having lived in Alberta, I can tell your thinking is not correct.

It is more about gutting the industry that help build our economy in the recession times. Now it has been mostly sold off to foreign companies. and where all the support industries are now farmed out of country as well.

If you look at other countries that are rich in minerals and oil, they limit what the sell-off or import, keeping the economy strong.

Canada could be a leader in clean fuels and metals production with new legislation which would benefit all the skilled labour leaving the auto industry. We could be fabricating everything here. It is pretty sad what they did to the entire industry.
 

BonkTastic

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Not at all. They want employment.

So does the rest of the country. Why does Alberta think they are special in this regard?

You'll forgive me for being exhausted by the constant flip-flopping by some Albertans though - when the good times are good, they want the federal government to stay ouy of their way, and constantly vote to reduce social programs, social safety nets, public health care, and anything that would add to their taxes...

... And then when times are BAD, all of a sudden it's the federal government's fault as well, SOMEHOW, because there's no social safety nets left and the Feds have been told for a decade to stay out.

I am absolutely sympathetic to any Canadian from coast to coast who is having employment issues. Honestly, I am. It sucks. What I'm pretty done with is the conststant scapegoating and superiority complex enabling that some Albertans have with the rest of the country.
 
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FolignoQuantumLeap

Don't Hold The Door
Mar 16, 2009
31,084
7,399
Ottawa
Sure. They also want.... Other stuff.

Dzx8gcvVYAEWMTP.jpg


However there was like 60 of them on day 1 and today most of them were chilling at Tim Horton's or Bridgehead.

A lot of noise over not much. As someone had said elsewhere, First Nations walking to Ottawa get less coverage than a bunch of angry white people driving to Ottawa and asking for free gas along the way.
I love that they hate globalism yet they want us to build a pipeline to get their oil to the global market. The best people.
 

IlTerrifico

Registered User
Oct 24, 2016
615
432
This is all about the landlocking of oil in Alberta, so their only sale outlet is to the U.S. with the existing pipeline, at way below market value for oil, like $17 per barrel, because our moron PM ensured the Trans Mountain pipeline will never be functional and all other pipeline options will never be viable because of new environmental assessment garbage that tie up every plan in paperwork and approvals.

We know the PM is a granola crunching fool and wants the oilfields shut down, but so do American interests that 1) get our oil super cheap since it can't go to other markets and 2) want to keep us out of the world market so they can capitalize. See

Oil Is Reason Behind U.S. Funding Of Canadian Environmental Conservation

Meanwhile, your PM has locked in federal transfers to Quebec at about $15B for the next 5 years, as if the oil revenues remain where they used to, when the Americans needed to buy our oil and we got the world price. So Quebec stays propped up by the other provinces (and debt borrowing), jobs and revenues are way down out west, and oil in the east comes from the Saudis and support their immoral regime, instead of internally, so we lose all around. Mostly compliments of our former drama teacher who intervenes in judicial matters, again to prop up the bribing entities from his home province. Lovely.
 
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BonkTastic

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It is more about gutting the industry that help build our economy in the recession times. Now it has been mostly sold off to foreign companies. and where all the support industries are now farmed out of country as well.

I agree that this is definitely a cause for concern, but considering that the practice of selling off the oil sands happened under the provincial and federal watch of Ralph Klein and Stephen Harper, respectfully, I don't see how some people in Alberta are blaming Trudeau for it.



If you look at other countries that are rich in minerals and oil, they limit what the sell-off or import, keeping the economy strong.

Again, agreed, but considering that the "extract as fast as possible and sell to anyone who is buying (after the US gets their percentage)" policies were again, implemented by Klein and Harper, motivated by the private oil companies that the majority of Albertans feverently wanted the Feds to keep their nose out of, I again don't see how the blame can possibly go to the current PM.

Canada could be a leader in clean fuels and metals production with new legislation which would benefit all the skilled labour leaving the auto industry. We could be fabricating everything here. It is pretty sad what they did to the entire industry.

Agreed, but the current federal government is operating on a 40+ year precedent from Albertans that suggest a highly contemptupus opinion of any federal involvement in provincial infrastructure on behalf of Albertans, that has been reinforced at the polls for generations.

This kind of planning is not a switch that can be flipped on a whim. It takes a lot of planning to implement this kind of infrastructure, planning that Albertans have historically been resistant to. If Albertans want this kind of radical energy infrastructure overhaul (which pwrsonally I'm all for) even if everyone is on board as of tomorrow morning, that's like a 20-year plan that will have a slow (but steady) return on expenditure. Plus, the feds would need assurances of commitment to that plan even in the face of an oil spike in the future, etc...

Alberta has never been good at planning for the future. That's an understandable side-effect of having boom periods economically. I get it. But blaming the current government for 30+ years of "living in the now" at the expense of any kind of safety net, and depending on private industry to continue to support the people when all of a sudden it's not in their best interest to do so in the face of drastic market changes, is not the fault of the current PM or cabinet.

I'm not a Trudeau fan by any means, but I'm also not willing to stand by and let the guy be a scapegoat against accusations he clearly bears no responsibility for.
 

Ice-Tray

Registered User
Jan 31, 2006
16,288
8,100
Victoria
This is all about the landlocking of oil in Alberta, so their only sale outlet is to the U.S. with the existing pipeline, at way below market value for oil, like $17 per barrel, because our moron PM ensured the Trans Mountain pipeline will never be functional and all other pipeline options will never be viable because of new environmental assessment garbage that tie up every plan in paperwork and approvals.

We know the PM is a granola crunching fool and wants the oilfields shut down, but so do American interests that 1) get our oil super cheap since it can't go to other markets and 2) want to keep us out of the world market so they can capitalize. See

Oil Is Reason Behind U.S. Funding Of Canadian Environmental Conservation

Meanwhile, your PM has locked in federal transfers to Quebec at about $15B for the next 5 years, as if the oil revenues remain where they used to, when the Americans needed to buy our oil and we got the world price. So Quebec stays propped up by the other provinces (and debt borrowing), jobs and revenues are way down out west, and oil in the east comes from the Saudis and support their immoral regime, instead of internally, so we lose all around. Mostly compliments of our former drama teacher who intervenes in judicial matters, again to prop up the bribing entities from his home province. Lovely.

Partisan politics sounds so silly and American. As soon as you start spouting off people just tune you out as a ranting fool.

BC didn’t want the pipeline and got creative in shutting it down as they usually do with these things. Focus some of your weird anger over here too.

In the end we should be doing what Variable outlined, and be looking to grow semiconductor and third level manufacturing, same with lumber in BC. We should also not be looking to drain all resources in order to swell the strategic resources stockpiles of our ideological ‘opposites ’.
 

AchtzehnBaby

Global Matador
Mar 28, 2013
15,021
8,899
Hazeldean Road
I agree that this is definitely a cause for concern, but considering that the practice of selling off the oil sands happened under the provincial and federal watch of Ralph Klein and Stephen Harper, respectfully, I don't see how some people in Alberta are blaming Trudeau for it.





Again, agreed, but considering that the "extract as fast as possible and sell to anyone who is buying (after the US gets their percentage)" policies were again, implemented by Klein and Harper, motivated by the private oil companies that the majority of Albertans feverently wanted the Feds to keep their nose out of, I again don't see how the blame can possibly go to the current PM.



Agreed, but the current federal government is operating on a 40+ year precedent from Albertans that suggest a highly contemptupus opinion of any federal involvement in provincial infrastructure on behalf of Albertans, that has been reinforced at the polls for generations.

This kind of planning is not a switch that can be flipped on a whim. It takes a lot of planning to implement this kind of infrastructure, planning that Albertans have historically been resistant to. If Albertans want this kind of radical energy infrastructure overhaul (which pwrsonally I'm all for) even if everyone is on board as of tomorrow morning, that's like a 20-year plan that will have a slow (but steady) return on expenditure. Plus, the feds would need assurances of commitment to that plan even in the face of an oil spike in the future, etc...

Alberta has never been good at planning for the future. That's an understandable side-effect of having boom periods economically. I get it. But blaming the current government for 30+ years of "living in the now" at the expense of any kind of safety net, and depending on private industry to continue to support the people when all of a sudden it's not in their best interest to do so in the face of drastic market changes, is not the fault of the current PM or cabinet.

I'm not a Trudeau fan by any means, but I'm also not willing to stand by and let the guy be a scapegoat against accusations he clearly bears no responsibility for.

I voted for the Liberals for-almost-ever. I even helped my Liberal MPP get in here. My point has nothing to do with parties or politics. Maybe a little about policy, but not the parties.

I just think that it is important for us to manage our resources and our workforce. Yes, Alberta always wants to show their big cash and big pickup trucks, but I am talking more about how we could be spreading the wealth across Canada better. We could be re-tooling the automotive part manufacturing plants into valve and instrument assemblies for heavy industries. That kind of forward thinking. We could ensure all (or at least 75%) of engineering is done by Canadians. We can also ensure that we educate people on pipeline safety, and develop a reasonable criteria for mines development in the north.
 
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Do Make Say Think

& Yet & Yet
Jun 26, 2007
51,157
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This is all about the landlocking of oil in Alberta, so their only sale outlet is to the U.S. with the existing pipeline, at way below market value for oil, like $17 per barrel, because our moron PM ensured the Trans Mountain pipeline will never be functional and all other pipeline options will never be viable because of new environmental assessment garbage that tie up every plan in paperwork and approvals.

We know the PM is a granola crunching fool and wants the oilfields shut down, but so do American interests that 1) get our oil super cheap since it can't go to other markets and 2) want to keep us out of the world market so they can capitalize. See

Oil Is Reason Behind U.S. Funding Of Canadian Environmental Conservation

Meanwhile, your PM has locked in federal transfers to Quebec at about $15B for the next 5 years, as if the oil revenues remain where they used to, when the Americans needed to buy our oil and we got the world price. So Quebec stays propped up by the other provinces (and debt borrowing), jobs and revenues are way down out west, and oil in the east comes from the Saudis and support their immoral regime, instead of internally, so we lose all around. Mostly compliments of our former drama teacher who intervenes in judicial matters, again to prop up the bribing entities from his home province. Lovely.

It would be nice if we could discuss these issues without devolving into "calling out" other Provinces. These are complex issues and the only way to properly deal with them is to compromise. How about we all take a deep breath and not give a reason for the mods to delete our posts.

At the end of the day this convoy was a miniscule group of individuals. We are better than this :)
 
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FolignoQuantumLeap

Don't Hold The Door
Mar 16, 2009
31,084
7,399
Ottawa
This is all about the landlocking of oil in Alberta, so their only sale outlet is to the U.S. with the existing pipeline, at way below market value for oil, like $17 per barrel, because our moron PM ensured the Trans Mountain pipeline will never be functional and all other pipeline options will never be viable because of new environmental assessment garbage that tie up every plan in paperwork and approvals.

We know the PM is a granola crunching fool and wants the oilfields shut down, but so do American interests that 1) get our oil super cheap since it can't go to other markets and 2) want to keep us out of the world market so they can capitalize. See

Oil Is Reason Behind U.S. Funding Of Canadian Environmental Conservation

Meanwhile, your PM has locked in federal transfers to Quebec at about $15B for the next 5 years, as if the oil revenues remain where they used to, when the Americans needed to buy our oil and we got the world price. So Quebec stays propped up by the other provinces (and debt borrowing), jobs and revenues are way down out west, and oil in the east comes from the Saudis and support their immoral regime, instead of internally, so we lose all around. Mostly compliments of our former drama teacher who intervenes in judicial matters, again to prop up the bribing entities from his home province. Lovely.
What new environmental assessments are the current government responsible for that held this up? From what i understand, the federal court of appeals overturned the Nation Energy board's 2013 approval because there wasn't proper consultation with indigenous groups on those lands and the environmental assessment was deemed insufficient.

The Libs have been super pro pipeline. I dunno what to tell you. They bought the damn thing from Kinder Morgan for 4.5B just to expedite it.
 

BonkTastic

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Nov 9, 2010
30,901
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...Mostly compliments of our former drama teacher...

Again - I'm not a Trudeau fan by any means, but if you think 30-40 years of economic infrastructure development and international relations can be squarely focused and entirely blamed on a guy who has been in office for less than 3.5 years, then I would suggest possibly considering taking a wider scope of ehat exactly the issues are, and why we are where we are.

I say it about hockey things a lot on these boards, and I'll say it again here - you have to understand the context involved in the issue if you want to understand the issue itself.

If you want to blame someone, I'd start with Klein and Harper, who literally sold the province out to foreign investors with literally zero interest in contributing towards the Canadian economy as it relates to regular, common workers.

I know it sucks, but this crisis in Alberta has been inevitable based on the provincial and federal decisions thathave been made for decades before today. Falsely scapegoating an undeserving target isn't going to fix anything. A lot of the policies that worked in Alberta when oil was $110/barrel aren't going to work now when it's $65/barrel. Drilling more oil isn't the get-out-of-jail-free card it used to be, doubly so now that the previous governments sold most of the stake off to foreign interests with poor contingency planning in case of a crash or global price fix in crude prices.
 

IlTerrifico

Registered User
Oct 24, 2016
615
432
Partisan politics sounds so silly and American. As soon as you start spouting off people just tune you out as a ranting fool.

BC didn’t want the pipeline and got creative in shutting it down as they usually do with these things. Focus some of your weird anger over here too.

In the end we should be doing what Variable outlined, and be looking to grow semiconductor and third level manufacturing, same with lumber in BC. We should also not be looking to drain all resources in order to swell the strategic resources stockpiles of our ideological ‘opposites ’.

Ridiculous ideological garbage is the fastest way to becoming the next Venezuela, but thanks for that. It would be nice to grow other industries, but it would also be nice if your tap provided free beer on demand. Yes BC didn't help with the pipeline, but Trudeau, who tweeted he would shut down Trans Mountain in 2014, is a tree hugger who put people out of work and built the debt in otherwise economic growth period because he doesn't care about future generations carrying the a debt, as long as things look rosy while he is in power.

Look, I've got my pile through my own industriousness, this stuff doesn't affect me, but people with good paying jobs out west are getting locked out because the environmentalists are being played like a violin by the American Rockerfellers, and idealists who believe the fuel that runs their houses and cars is evil if domestically produced somehow. It's beyond stupid, and meanwhile, the ideologists have turned Ontario into the most indebted per capita sub-district in the entire world. More interest paid annually than on healthcare, and when the lenders start to flee, it will be these kinds of decisions that leave the area broke and loaded up with dysfunctional windmills and not much else.
 
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BonkTastic

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Nov 9, 2010
30,901
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I voted for the Liberals for-almost-ever. I even helped my Liberal MPP get in here. My point has nothing to do with parties or politics. Maybe a little about policy, but not the parties.

I just think that it is important for us to manage our resources and our workforce. Yes, Alberta always wants to show their big cash and big pickup trucks, but I am talking more about how we could be spreading the wealth across Canada better. We could be re-tooling the automotive part manufacturing plants into valve and instrument assemblies for heavy industries. That kind of forward thinking. We could ensure all (or at least 75%) of engineering is done by Canadians. We can also ensure that we educate people on pipeline safety, and develop a reasonable criteria for mines development in the north.

There's literally nothing in this post that I don't agree with. I'm on board with you completely here.

I wasn't trying to criticize your personal politics or anything either. I only bring up Klein and Harper more as a reality check for the people who somehow blame Trudeau for low global oil prices, or suggest that his refusal to enact policies that were profitable when oil was worth literally almost double what it is today (which he almost can't, since foreign oilsand ownership only drills when it's profitable to do so, with no regard for the local economy, and we can't force them to drill when it's convenient for us) is what is keeping the province from greatness.
 
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Nac Mac Feegle

wee & free
Jun 10, 2011
34,828
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This warms my heart. I have way too many people on my social media feed who have been duped by the "we just want jobs" crap those oil folks are spewing out. Nice to see most folks in here know the real story with them and the yellow vests.

Alberta really bugs me...if they had any foresight at all, they could've had a multi-pronged strong economy both in oil, green tech/fuels, tourism, forestry, agriculture...hell, damned near anything they want! That province is full of resources, great land, educated workforce and even a decent geographic location for virtually any industry. They are sitting on a goldmine in that province...and it ain't the tarsands.
 

Ice-Tray

Registered User
Jan 31, 2006
16,288
8,100
Victoria
Ridiculous ideological garbage is the fastest way to becoming the next Venezuela, but thanks for that. It would be nice to grow other industries, but it would also be nice if your tap provided free beer on demand. Yes BC didn't help with the pipeline, but Trudeau, who tweeted he would shut down Trans Mountain in 2014, is a tree hugger who put people out of work and built the debt in otherwise economic growth period because he doesn't care about future generations carrying the a debt, as long as things look rosy while he is in power.

Look, I've got my pile through my own industriousness, this stuff doesn't affect me, but people with good paying jobs out west are getting locked out because the environmentalists are being played like a violin by the American Rockerfellers, and idealists who believe the fuel that runs their houses and cars is evil if domestically produced somehow. It's beyond stupid, and meanwhile, the ideologists have turned Ontario into the most indebted per capita sub-district in the entire world. More interest paid annually than on healthcare, and when the lenders start to flee, it will be these kinds of decisions that leave the area broke and loaded up with dysfunctional windmills and not much else.

I disagree, ideological part, I mean how anyone could possibly have that stance and at the same time follow the politics of China and Russia, and the USA as examples.

As for the meat. I don’t dissagree about jobs, the problem is that it isn’t about jobs, it’s about massive foreign owned companies pilfering the oil resources of Alberta as much as possible and shipping them off to be manufactured elsewhere.

Sure, if the government were to be able to force the pipeline through BC it would create some more jobs, and definitly lead to a spike in tip heavy earnings, but if they actually wanted to create jobs for citizens, there would be a focus on fleshing out the oil industry sideways, and stop selling it all off to foreign companies who have priorities elsewhere. BC did the same thing with the lumber industry, shipping off raw lumber overseas and across the boarder so that Canadians can buy finished wide products back again, while the secondary and tertiary lumber industry died off and entire towns vanished.

BC has seen close up the consequences of oil spills on the coast, and the passage up to Kitimat is one of the most dangerous on the entire Pacific Coast. That doesn’t even consider pipeline leaks, which are far more common on already existing pipelines to make anyone feel confident. Again, all so foreign oil companies and Alberta politicians can get filthy rich off the backs of a few more Alberta workers.

No thanks, the system needs an overhaul before it has my support, and before I’d feel comfortable piping that shit across the province.

Good chats by the way.
 

IlTerrifico

Registered User
Oct 24, 2016
615
432
My last post on this.

Federal debt as of 2017 was $632B

Quebec transfer payments in just the last 9 years

Federal Support to Quebec
(millions of dollars)
2010-112011-122012-132013-142014-152015-162016-172017-182018-19
Equalization8,5527,8157,3917,8339,2869,52110,03011,08111,73283,241
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Yeah, Alberta is the problem child that causes all the issues....and this doesn't count many other overpayments and loan write-offs. Others could have 'had a multi-pronged strong economy both in oil, green tech/fuels, tourism, forestry, agriculture', but just watch the free lolly roll in from PMs that seem to almost always come from their province.
 
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