OT: Sens Lounge XCX: Posted to the limit, one more time edition

[FunkySeeFunkyDoo]

I can be entertained by something without believing it though.

And to be fair, this whole discussion is about the veracity of the video/credibility of the author. We aren't talking about if the video is amusing.

Classic example: Bonk mostly proved that the guy in the video is not credible by establishing that he speaks on matters he knows very little about and uses that to attempt to strengthen his position. On it's own that establishes that you shouldn't take anything this guy says for granted. What was the response? "Yeah but what about the other stuff he talks about?": he wants to be TOLD, he doesn't want to THINK.

Yeah, I'd say you should never take anything anybody says for granted. I mean, my brain just glossed over his error wrt Copernicus, and yet as I watched the rest of the video I came to the conclusion the guy was not credible.

I agree there's a somewhat interesting conversation to be had about the guys theories, but I think it'd be pretty short (ie pretty quick to debunk).

To me the more interesting conversation is about WHY some people are drawn to this stuff. IMO the conspiracy theory aspect -- the fact people love conspiracies because they are entertaining -- is a part of it.

The most relevant part though, is how most lay people really do not understand how rigorous and slow science is (Bonk alludes to this when he states that there will be a lot of interesting research related to the crater over the next 5 to 10 years).

People see little glimpses of the scientific method in Hollywood films, or science fiction writing, or the mainstream media, and they think that this guys "connecting the dots" qualifies as science.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Yeah, I'd say you should never take anything anybody says for granted. I mean, my brain just glossed over his error wrt Copernicus, and yet as I watched the rest of the video I came to the conclusion the guy was not credible.

I agree there's a somewhat interesting conversation to be had about the guys theories, but I think it'd be pretty short (ie pretty quick to debunk).

To me the more interesting conversation is about WHY some people are drawn to this stuff. IMO the conspiracy theory aspect -- the fact people love conspiracies because they are entertaining -- is a part of it.

The most relevant part though, is how most lay people really do not understand how rigorous and slow science is (Bonk alludes to this when he states that there will be a lot of interesting research related to the crater over the next 5 to 10 years).

People see little glimpses of the scientific method in Hollywood films, or science fiction writing, or the mainstream media, and they think that this guys "connecting the dots" qualifies as science.

I see conspiracy theory nuts the same way I look at all those ladies who endlessly post inspirational quotes on social media: it is just a way to compensate for what they know they lack but won't admit.

I'm very, very cynical though.

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

I see conspiracy theory nuts the same way I look at all those ladies who endlessly post inspirational quotes on social media: it is just a way to compensate for what they know they lack but won't admit.

I'm very, very cynical though.

That's a pretty funny comparison.

 

[maclean]

Speaking of the word sheep. That word really bugs me, because for some reason I always consider it a plural word and have to convince myself that sheep is also the singular form. And it legitimately bothers me when I have to use it in a singular fashion, to the point where I consider modifying my intended sentence to avoid its usage.

Anyone else find that happens with them for certain words? Like you know you're using it right, but it bothers you enough that you almost go out of your way to avoid using.

The singular is obviously shoop. Anyone who tells you otherwise is a big ol' shoop being bossed around by Big Grammar.

 

[saskriders]

My word (which btw is a company with a reputation for being good to employees) has started asking people to take their two weeks paid vacation followed by 2 week leave of absence in February/March. I am going to tell them I can only do the vacation but not the leave. I am not even full time after a year and a half and every full time position that comes up I apply for, but I don't get it because anything that isn't a promotion is given out completely based on seniority so I am always way down the list and it goes to someone who has been here for like five years. Even to get a promotion you have to be given "ready now" status, but most people take a few years and you can only get it at your yearly review so if you don't get it one year you have to wait an entire year to have a chance again. They do give out more than fill time hours some weeks, but if sales are down part timers aren't getting more than 25 hours. To make all this extra frustrating every year for the last ~6 weeks of the calendar year they stay open an extra hour on weekends, but don't advertise it at all so there is virtually no customers and a bunch of employees and the company must lose a lot of money only to screw us over by saying they don't have enough money. **** this place it is like they are saying "we won't show any loyalty to you until you prove you are loyal to us by spending five years scrapping by at the bottom of the barrel.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

My word (which btw is a company with a reputation for being good to employees) has started asking people to take their two weeks paid vacation followed by 2 week leave of absence in February/March. I am going to tell them I can only do the vacation but not the leave. I am not even full time after a year and a half and every full time position that comes up I apply for, but I don't get it because anything that isn't a promotion is given out completely based on seniority so I am always way down the list and it goes to someone who has been here for like five years. Even to get a promotion you have to be given "ready now" status, but most people take a few years and you can only get it at your yearly review so if you don't get it one year you have to wait an entire year to have a chance again. They do give out more than fill time hours some weeks, but if sales are down part timers aren't getting more than 25 hours. To make all this extra frustrating every year for the last ~6 weeks of the calendar year they stay open an extra hour on weekends, but don't advertise it at all so there is virtually no customers and a bunch of employees and the company must lose a lot of money only to screw us over by saying they don't have enough money. **** this place it is like they are saying "we won't show any loyalty to you until you prove you are loyal to us by spending five years scrapping by at the bottom of the barrel.

Sounds like a crappy job you shouldn't feel bad about bailing on if money isn't too tight.

 

[BonkTastic]

My word (which btw is a company with a reputation for being good to employees) has started asking people to take their two weeks paid vacation followed by 2 week leave of absence in February/March.

That's a super bad sign, and you should be looking at finding a new job, like, yesterday.

If you're as far down on the totem pole of seniority as you suggest, once cuts come you'll be first on the block.

 

[saskriders]

That's a super bad sign, and you should be looking at finding a new job, like, yesterday.

If you're as far down on the totem pole of seniority as you suggest, once cuts come you'll be first on the block.

If I wasn't planning on traveling I would have left long ago. There are enough people hired after me that I shouldn't be in danger if/when they cut, but yeah it is pretty frustrating.

 

[Stylizer1]

C'mon man, you can't post a video where the guy immediately starts running his face about "mainstream media keeping real knowledge from the people" nonsense and not have anyone comment about it.

The crater itself is insane and cool. The legitimate articles about it are fascinating. It fits in with the Younger Dryas timeline, and there's probably tons of cool research to come from this discovery in the next 5-10 years.

This was where I was hoping the conversation would go. I took for granted people not worrying about the messenger and elaborating on the substance of the message. He actually is just rehashing many theories that have been around for a while. It's my fault for not explaining it better before posting or providing links with better arguments. The discovery of the crater is the main point.

 

[Stylizer1]

Yeah, I'd say you should never take anything anybody says for granted. I mean, my brain just glossed over his error wrt Copernicus, and yet as I watched the rest of the video I came to the conclusion the guy was not credible.

I agree there's a somewhat interesting conversation to be had about the guys theories, but I think it'd be pretty short (ie pretty quick to debunk).

To me the more interesting conversation is about WHY some people are drawn to this stuff. IMO the conspiracy theory aspect -- the fact people love conspiracies because they are entertaining -- is a part of it.

The most relevant part though, is how most lay people really do not understand how rigorous and slow science is (Bonk alludes to this when he states that there will be a lot of interesting research related to the crater over the next 5 to 10 years).

People see little glimpses of the scientific method in Hollywood films, or science fiction writing, or the mainstream media, and they think that this guys "connecting the dots" qualifies as science.

I never meant for my post to generate so much of this conspiracy talk. Holy f***. Scientific process and all. The idea I was trying to get at is this crater having been made from an asteroid within the younger dryas period could be the missing link between the old world and one that came up from under the ashes. The great floods, the extinction of species, the physical composition of the worlds coastlines, the real possibility of Atlantis and many other things all can come into the picture.




Interesting stuff.

 

[thinkwild]

I remember after 9/11 I came across this video online suggesting that it was an inside job. I watched it. It was a somewhat journalistic type narrative with video and experts suggesting the building wouldn’t fall that way unless it imploded and other such notions. I remember after watching it, I thought hmm, that’s interesting if true. I was willing for the moment to believe it was possible because over the years we have read about many false flag operations as a tool of the intelligence agencies.

It was only a short while after when I watched another video by this guy that I had never heard of and realized, hey wait a minute, this guy is an idiot. It was Alex Jones. I had never heard of him before. He actually got me to entertain his ideas as plausible and worth following up on for a short time. And I like to think of myself as discriminating enough not to fall for that! D’oh!

And I always have to remind myself of that when I wonder: how can so many people be taken in by this guy’s ridiculous conspiracy theories? How is it possible these people are a voting bloc I need to consider when debating policy?

We still read horoscopes, open fortune cookies, read the enquirer, join cults of personality, is it any wonder we are having difficulties establishing a common basis of reality and facts these days.

 

[Stylizer1]

I remember after 9/11 I came across this video online suggesting that it was an inside job. I watched it. It was a somewhat journalistic type narrative with video and experts suggesting the building wouldn’t fall that way unless it imploded and other such notions. I remember after watching it, I thought hmm, that’s interesting if true. I was willing for the moment to believe it was possible because over the years we have read about many false flag operations as a tool of the intelligence agencies.

It was only a short while after when I watched another video by this guy that I had never heard of and realized, hey wait a minute, this guy is an idiot. It was Alex Jones. I had never heard of him before. He actually got me to entertain his ideas as plausible and worth following up on for a short time. And I like to think of myself as discriminating enough not to fall for that! D’oh!

And I always have to remind myself of that when I wonder: how can so many people be taken in by this guy’s ridiculous conspiracy theories? How is it possible these people are a voting bloc I need to consider when debating policy?

We still read horoscopes, open fortune cookies, read the enquirer, join cults of personality, is it any wonder we are having difficulties establishing a common basis of reality and facts these days.

When your business is conspiracy theories you will do and say anything for attention.

 

[maclean]

We still read horoscopes, open fortune cookies, read the enquirer, join cults of personality, is it any wonder we are having difficulties establishing a common basis of reality and facts these days.

I think it's important to point out that science is as much of a cult IN THAT so many people are willing to believe things just because someone told them that some scientist claimed it. Please note what I am saying. If you go and look at what the scientist actually stated in the study in question (if such study even exists!) you will find that they claimed no such thing. Indeed most studies, by the necessary nature of the discipline, examine something so incredibly specific that you'd be hard-pressed to draw any general conclusions from it at all. It is only once there is a body of findings that such conclusions begin to arise, and even then they will of course be necessarily constantly subject to revision. Yet after a single study you have news articles and then people rereporting their interpretation of that all with little appreciation for the scientific process and oftentimes with the same fanatical rigour as the anti-reason crowd.

 

[thinkwild]

I think it's important to point out that science is as much of a cult IN THAT so many people are willing to believe things just because someone told them that some scientist claimed it. Please note what I am saying. If you go and look at what the scientist actually stated in the study in question (if such study even exists!) you will find that they claimed no such thing. Indeed most studies, by the necessary nature of the discipline, examine something so incredibly specific that you'd be hard-pressed to draw any general conclusions from it at all. It is only once there is a body of findings that such conclusions begin to arise, and even then they will of course be necessarily constantly subject to revision. Yet after a single study you have news articles and then people rereporting their interpretation of that all with little appreciation for the scientific process and oftentimes with the same fanatical rigour as the anti-reason crowd.

For sure maclean, couldnt agree with you more. Most scientific peer reviewed papers are amazingly precise about a specific point when you scroll through their titles in a library. Synthesizing all the papers on a topic into a grand perspective usually reveals itself when the science is compelling, overwhelming, and repeatable. Questioning science is fundamental to its nature.

 

[maclean]

OK, never thought it would come to this, but here's the point where I'm asking y'all for parenting advice... My son, aged 13, has been playing soccer since he was 10 (terribly late in Europe). When he came to the team, he was immediately targetted as messing things up, and hats off to him, he powered through and has improved a lot, but I'm not going to deny, he's clearly a weakest link on the team, where he doesn't even get mostly nominated for games, so we're talking mostly practice situations. He's a a sensitive kid and has always let these things go to his head, so there's an amazing disparity between when he's playing with his peers from his team and when he's playing pick-up games at our local playground with older talented kids and even playing with me and my adult friends, where he can totally hold his own. In the latter situations, he's quite good and in the former his head is totally messed and he plays off. Now, at this age, they've started being especially cruel to him, apparently, and he's spent the last month or more out with a sprained wrist, which as much as it's backed up by doctors, I also see that he really doesn't want to go back and probably exaggerates the pain to not have to. In half a month's time he's signed up (and deposit long since paid) to do a "winter training camp" where they acutally won't be playing soccer at all, but generally just cross-country skiiing. But he's a hard-headed one and he doesn't want to go there at all, basically has the feeling that they all beat up on him pyschologically, which is most likely factual. I remember this period of my life well, it was hell, but the fact of the matter is it's something we all go through. For one thing there's a non-returnable deposit on this trip, but also I feel like it's something he has to come out the other side of, and I know and have seen that he's a much better player than his teammates give him credit for, or that he's capable of displaying when they are around. Having presented this, I hope I don't really need to phrase the question as such, so I'd be glad for any advice any of you would be so kind as to offer. My own feeling is he should play out the season and then I'm happy to let him end it after that if that's what he wants, but I feel at this age you have to learn to realise that certain kids can be cruel and others will just pile on or seemingly so and it's an important lesson to discover you can't just run away from it.... thanks in advance....

 

[DrEasy]

OK, never thought it would come to this, but here's the point where I'm asking y'all for parenting advice... My son, aged 13, has been playing soccer since he was 10 (terribly late in Europe). When he came to the team, he was immediately targetted as messing things up, and hats off to him, he powered through and has improved a lot, but I'm not going to deny, he's clearly a weakest link on the team, where he doesn't even get mostly nominated for games, so we're talking mostly practice situations. He's a a sensitive kid and has always let these things go to his head, so there's an amazing disparity between when he's playing with his peers from his team and when he's playing pick-up games at our local playground with older talented kids and even playing with me and my adult friends, where he can totally hold his own. In the latter situations, he's quite good and in the former his head is totally messed and he plays off. Now, at this age, they've started being especially cruel to him, apparently, and he's spent the last month or more out with a sprained wrist, which as much as it's backed up by doctors, I also see that he really doesn't want to go back and probably exaggerates the pain to not have to. In half a month's time he's signed up (and deposit long since paid) to do a "winter training camp" where they acutally won't be playing soccer at all, but generally just cross-country skiiing. But he's a hard-headed one and he doesn't want to go there at all, basically has the feeling that they all beat up on him pyschologically, which is most likely factual. I remember this period of my life well, it was hell, but the fact of the matter is it's something we all go through. For one thing there's a non-returnable deposit on this trip, but also I feel like it's something he has to come out the other side of, and I know and have seen that he's a much better player than his teammates give him credit for, or that he's capable of displaying when they are around. Having presented this, I hope I don't really need to phrase the question as such, so I'd be glad for any advice any of you would be so kind as to offer. My own feeling is he should play out the season and then I'm happy to let him end it after that if that's what he wants, but I feel at this age you have to learn to realise that certain kids can be cruel and others will just pile on or seemingly so and it's an important lesson to discover you can't just run away from it.... thanks in advance....

I'm no parent, so maybe this opinion has no value. I think it's cruel to force him to do something he doesn't want to do (I guess first you need to hear it from him!). If he enjoys playing soccer, find him a place where he gets to play and have fun. There's plenty of other opportunities for life lessons in perseverance without destroying someone's self-esteem, especially with how fragile kids seem to be these days.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

OK, never thought it would come to this, but here's the point where I'm asking y'all for parenting advice... My son, aged 13, has been playing soccer since he was 10 (terribly late in Europe). When he came to the team, he was immediately targetted as messing things up, and hats off to him, he powered through and has improved a lot, but I'm not going to deny, he's clearly a weakest link on the team, where he doesn't even get mostly nominated for games, so we're talking mostly practice situations. He's a a sensitive kid and has always let these things go to his head, so there's an amazing disparity between when he's playing with his peers from his team and when he's playing pick-up games at our local playground with older talented kids and even playing with me and my adult friends, where he can totally hold his own. In the latter situations, he's quite good and in the former his head is totally messed and he plays off. Now, at this age, they've started being especially cruel to him, apparently, and he's spent the last month or more out with a sprained wrist, which as much as it's backed up by doctors, I also see that he really doesn't want to go back and probably exaggerates the pain to not have to. In half a month's time he's signed up (and deposit long since paid) to do a "winter training camp" where they acutally won't be playing soccer at all, but generally just cross-country skiiing. But he's a hard-headed one and he doesn't want to go there at all, basically has the feeling that they all beat up on him pyschologically, which is most likely factual. I remember this period of my life well, it was hell, but the fact of the matter is it's something we all go through. For one thing there's a non-returnable deposit on this trip, but also I feel like it's something he has to come out the other side of, and I know and have seen that he's a much better player than his teammates give him credit for, or that he's capable of displaying when they are around. Having presented this, I hope I don't really need to phrase the question as such, so I'd be glad for any advice any of you would be so kind as to offer. My own feeling is he should play out the season and then I'm happy to let him end it after that if that's what he wants, but I feel at this age you have to learn to realise that certain kids can be cruel and others will just pile on or seemingly so and it's an important lesson to discover you can't just run away from it.... thanks in advance....

You want him to learn to fight through adversity or, at the very least, tolerate it which is more than fair. At the same time, you seem to believe he is being harassed.

If it is harassment then I'd say there is no point in him going. There is adversity and then there is cruelty, what is there to learn by being subjected to cruelty? He won't even be able to improve his game and thus improve his standing within the team since they won't be playing football, it is a ski trip.

 

[coladin]

OK, never thought it would come to this, but here's the point where I'm asking y'all for parenting advice... My son, aged 13, has been playing soccer since he was 10 (terribly late in Europe). When he came to the team, he was immediately targetted as messing things up, and hats off to him, he powered through and has improved a lot, but I'm not going to deny, he's clearly a weakest link on the team, where he doesn't even get mostly nominated for games, so we're talking mostly practice situations. He's a a sensitive kid and has always let these things go to his head, so there's an amazing disparity between when he's playing with his peers from his team and when he's playing pick-up games at our local playground with older talented kids and even playing with me and my adult friends, where he can totally hold his own. In the latter situations, he's quite good and in the former his head is totally messed and he plays off. Now, at this age, they've started being especially cruel to him, apparently, and he's spent the last month or more out with a sprained wrist, which as much as it's backed up by doctors, I also see that he really doesn't want to go back and probably exaggerates the pain to not have to. In half a month's time he's signed up (and deposit long since paid) to do a "winter training camp" where they acutally won't be playing soccer at all, but generally just cross-country skiiing. But he's a hard-headed one and he doesn't want to go there at all, basically has the feeling that they all beat up on him pyschologically, which is most likely factual. I remember this period of my life well, it was hell, but the fact of the matter is it's something we all go through. For one thing there's a non-returnable deposit on this trip, but also I feel like it's something he has to come out the other side of, and I know and have seen that he's a much better player than his teammates give him credit for, or that he's capable of displaying when they are around. Having presented this, I hope I don't really need to phrase the question as such, so I'd be glad for any advice any of you would be so kind as to offer. My own feeling is he should play out the season and then I'm happy to let him end it after that if that's what he wants, but I feel at this age you have to learn to realise that certain kids can be cruel and others will just pile on or seemingly so and it's an important lesson to discover you can't just run away from it.... thanks in advance....

Soccer should be fun. Clearly, he is not having any, nor is it some educational requirement. Time to change gears...

I share your frustration though, but these kids by and large are not us. They are growing up in a different time. We are all overbearing whether we can admit it or not, and over parent. Our parents were too busy in the 70s and 80s working to provide for us ...and we figured shit out. These days, I think we are too good at what we do and do not allow our kids to persevere to a longer extent. I am happy to see that you have pushed him, even though it is making him sad . If you know what i mean.

I have three kids, and as much as I wish they could toughen up and cope better, I am a shadow of my father and his strength. Each generation seems to be weaker than the next. I think it is just how things are going in our society. The further from war and strife we get, the less hungry, the less resolve people are. My dad came to Canada after WWII, and that generation is the best generation, imo.

He is young enough that he has plenty of time to get back into it, or join another club, different level. If he wants to play soccer, then it may cost you some, but he will be happier and will keep playing a sport he loves.

 

[saskriders]

Would he be interested in joining a lower less competitive level. Or maybe playing a less popular sport, where the other kids won't have as high a skill level since there isn't the same level of coaching infrastructure in place? If he enjoys sports, but not the situation he is in I think it would be best to find a substitute that keeps the aspects he enjoys and eliminates the ones he doesn't.

 

[Stylizer1]

Or help him train harder to become better. He either has the drive or doesn't.

 

[Stylizer1]

PITTSBUUUUUURGH!!!

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

OK, never thought it would come to this, but here's the point where I'm asking y'all for parenting advice... My son, aged 13, has been playing soccer since he was 10 (terribly late in Europe). When he came to the team, he was immediately targetted as messing things up, and hats off to him, he powered through and has improved a lot, but I'm not going to deny, he's clearly a weakest link on the team, where he doesn't even get mostly nominated for games, so we're talking mostly practice situations. He's a a sensitive kid and has always let these things go to his head, so there's an amazing disparity between when he's playing with his peers from his team and when he's playing pick-up games at our local playground with older talented kids and even playing with me and my adult friends, where he can totally hold his own. In the latter situations, he's quite good and in the former his head is totally messed and he plays off. Now, at this age, they've started being especially cruel to him, apparently, and he's spent the last month or more out with a sprained wrist, which as much as it's backed up by doctors, I also see that he really doesn't want to go back and probably exaggerates the pain to not have to. In half a month's time he's signed up (and deposit long since paid) to do a "winter training camp" where they acutally won't be playing soccer at all, but generally just cross-country skiiing. But he's a hard-headed one and he doesn't want to go there at all, basically has the feeling that they all beat up on him pyschologically, which is most likely factual. I remember this period of my life well, it was hell, but the fact of the matter is it's something we all go through. For one thing there's a non-returnable deposit on this trip, but also I feel like it's something he has to come out the other side of, and I know and have seen that he's a much better player than his teammates give him credit for, or that he's capable of displaying when they are around. Having presented this, I hope I don't really need to phrase the question as such, so I'd be glad for any advice any of you would be so kind as to offer. My own feeling is he should play out the season and then I'm happy to let him end it after that if that's what he wants, but I feel at this age you have to learn to realise that certain kids can be cruel and others will just pile on or seemingly so and it's an important lesson to discover you can't just run away from it.... thanks in advance....

I think its a tough call. You are going to have to assess where he is , and who he is.

1. If he had previously willingly agreed to the trip, you want to teach him to see thing through that he started, particularly if you think there will be a personal benefit to him, and at least some enjoyment.

2. I think kids can sometimes be put in over their heads and that can turn them off something , they may eventually would really like and possibly even grow and excel at . The second part won't come if he dreads going and dreads the ridicule. This happens in minor hockey all the time.

I think its something you really need to talk to him about ..tell him how you feel about making a commitment and seeing it through, and how that is an important lesson. At 13 they understand a lot. Try to assess if there is a chance that he could enjoy it despite the kids that have been rather mean to him. If he really , really doesn't want to , and can tell you that without emotion or being angry in a quiet conversation.. I think you have to pay attention.

If he decides to stick with it, I think talking to the coach would be warranted. I coached a lot, and its something a coach should foster, is that everyone is important, even though some players may have more skill, a team requires the contribution from everyone and without that they are not a team.. its trying to teach all the kids to not think they are above anyone else.

 

[coladin]

I think its a tough call. You are going to have to assess where he is , and who he is.

1. If he had previously willingly agreed to the trip, you want to teach him to see thing through that he started, particularly if you think there will be a personal benefit to him, and at least some enjoyment.

2. I think kids can sometimes be put in over their heads and that can turn them off something , they may eventually would really like and possibly even grow and excel at . The second part won't come if he dreads going and dreads the ridicule. This happens in minor hockey all the time.

I think its something you really need to talk to him about ..tell him how you feel about making a commitment and seeing it through, and how that is an important lesson. At 13 they understand a lot. Try to assess if there is a chance that he could enjoy it despite the kids that have been rather mean to him. If he really , really doesn't want to , and can tell you that without emotion or being angry in a quiet conversation.. I think you have to pay attention.

If he decides to stick with it, I think talking to the coach would be warranted. I coached a lot, and its something a coach should foster, is that everyone is important, even though some players may have more skill, a team requires the contribution from everyone and without that they are not a team.. its trying to teach all the kids to not think they are above anyone else.

Yeah, good point about the coach. He should be spoken with and, depending on the level, he may welcome it or maybe hold it against the kid. You never know with some coaches

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

The burbs

 

[Smash88]

The burbs

I wish they would publish the complainers name. If your complaint forces someone to do something, they should be able to respond to that complaint and the complainer should be forced to defend it.