OT: Sens Lounge XCVII: "Zorf; 21 times!" Edition

[DrEasy]

As someone who has both visited and lived in many 3rd world countires, this statement is the biggest pile of horsemanure I've read in a decade.

No offence intended, and not trying to make it personal, but I can't let that degree of either exaggeration or ignorance go without calling it for what it is. It's utterly without merit, truth, or accuracy.

I see, so only one of us is allowed to exaggerate! That's fine, I'll take the high road.

I retract the statement that Canada's healthcare is bad by 3rd world standards. What I should have said instead is that (from first hand experience) there are third world countries with better healthcare than Canada (I don't want to get specific without telling too much about me). And I am sure that Canadian healthcare is better than Indonesian healthcare. Yay, Canada is better than Indonesia!

Way to miss the actual point of the post though.

 

[DrEasy]

I am extremely skeptical of the bolded. I didn't find data that encompasses a wide variety of countries regarding numbers of hospital beds, or likelihood of surviving non-communicable diseases. I did find on Wikipedia the WHO 2016 report that has Canada at 12th for life expectancy and 10th for health-adjusted life expectancy (basically years lived without a significant disability that effects your health). Another Wikipedia WHO list ranks countries by numbers of physicians per 10000 people and Canada ranks 69th out of 188, but I would take that list with a grain of salt. While in general the countries ahead of Canada are richer countries and in general the ones behind are poorer countries there are plenty of outliers and correlation isn't very high and I suspect there are many other factors at play (such as how stringent the requirements to become a doctor are).

Thanks for a thoughtful response.

I like your use of objective metrics. But much of our life expectancy also automatically benefits from much better standards of hygiene, the fact that we live in a climate that is not conducive to certain diseases, a country that is wealthier, safer, better educated, where people drive more carefully, eat healthier, don't casually carry guns, etc. These are all the reasons why I love Canada.

Of course pretty much everybody wants to see the points you raised happen, but they are not easy problems to solve at all. And even if we are able to come up with achievable solutions it will cost money and while I would be willing to pay more taxes many people will not be.

That was the point of my post: I expect our politicians to propose solutions, and I'm not hearing any. You'd expect some opportunistic party would propose something (more taxes to improve the current system, or maybe a two-tiered one), because healthcare concerns us all.

I don't think it is necessarily wrong to prioritize things like mental, dental, or pharma over "general" health. If for instance our "general" healthcare system could be rated 7/10 (no basis for this number, just a random hypothetical), but mental health is at a 2/10; than not only is mental health lagging far behind, but I think it would also be much easier to improve it my 3 or 4 points from bad to mediocre than it would be to raise general health care 1 point and change it from good to great. I think that the relative improvements we can make to mental healthcare can be more than what we can improve for general healthcare because in the former we are lacking much more basic infrastructure whereas in the latter the basics are mostly in place already, there isn't as much room for improvement, and the improvements that can be made require solving of more difficult problems.

I simply listed mental care along with dental and pharma, because if I omitted it I would be accused of ignoring an important one that every party is paying attention to. But I certainly I agree with you that the state of mental health is also terrible here, and it is in high need for improvement. In fact, with better mental health care, we can help reduce hospital visits and wait times too.

 

[DrEasy]

Canadian vs French healthcare system, a first hand account and an apple-to-apple comparison:

I occasionally get kidney stones (big ouch), and they seem to hit me when I'm traveling, for some reason (maybe dehydration?). The first couple of times you get them you don't know what they are, so naturally you go to emerge.

My first one hit me in France: it took 30 minutes between the moment I stepped into the clinic, was put on a stretcher, given some pain med, had X-rays taken, and had a correct diagnosis made on the spot. Didn't cost an arm and a leg either.

My second one hit me in Ottawa: 7 hour wait (BIG OUCH), given a way too high dose of morphine (hey at least it was fun), left on a stretcher in a hallway.

Now that I know better, I just grind it out with Advil and prayers. And I'm not religious.

 

[saskriders]

I haven't been able to stop listening to this the past few days

 

[Here I Pageau Again]

Canadian vs French healthcare system, a first hand account and an apple-to-apple comparison:

I occasionally get kidney stones (big ouch), and they seem to hit me when I'm traveling, for some reason (maybe dehydration?). The first couple of times you get them you don't know what they are, so naturally you go to emerge.

My first one hit me in France: it took 30 minutes between the moment I stepped into the clinic, was put on a stretcher, given some pain med, had X-rays taken, and had a correct diagnosis made on the spot. Didn't cost an arm and a leg either.

My second one hit me in Ottawa: 7 hour wait (BIG OUCH), given a way too high dose of morphine (hey at least it was fun), left on a stretcher in a hallway.

Now that I know better, I just grind it out with Advil and prayers. And I'm not religious.

My only beef with this is that you are comparing two isolated instances and seemingly making a claim for one healthcare being awful and the other not.

In emergency things can happen that cause wait times to be long -- and kidney stones are generally never going to be triaged as an emergency over things like chest pain (for example). So did you simply go to emerge in Canada on a day that they had pretty significant patient loads? And get lucky in France? I'm not sure, but I can tell you, I've been to emerge a handful of times for myself, and never waited more than an hour. Last summer I got cellulitis (same virus that can cause flesh eating disease) when pregnant, I was triaged and immediately admitted to the wards (like within 15 minutes). I've taken my daughter into emerge and been in and out in the hour. I could go on about the great experience I've had. Anecdotes give us perceptions on healthcare that may or may not be validated by the actual evidence of wait times and such (and generally ppl don't rave when our healthcare does good work, so we seem to get stuck with only crappy stories).

Again I'm personally not sure that a two tiered system is the answer (it may improve the healthcare for some but will it improve it for all?). I think there are far better ways to improve our healthcare in the system we have -- as I've said before.

 

[maclean]

I will say that in the Czech Republic wait times are a fraction of what they are in Canada. As DrEasy describes above, they are perfectly reasonable. Hell, you can even go to your GP without an appointment and get in. And by all accounts there is a doctor shortage here and the pay for hospital workers is abysmal.

This is my third 13h work day this week.

Running on fumes... but the OT pay will be nice.

This was me the week before last. 12-14 hour days every single day. Takin'er easy this week as compensation. Making double what I would make in a normal month will be pleasant as well - I mayyyy even be able to take a bit of vacation in the summer.

 

[DrEasy]

My only beef with this is that you are comparing two isolated instances and seemingly making a claim for one healthcare being awful and the other not.

In emergency things can happen that cause wait times to be long -- and kidney stones are generally never going to be triaged as an emergency over things like chest pain (for example). So did you simply go to emerge in Canada on a day that they had pretty significant patient loads? And get lucky in France? I'm not sure, but I can tell you, I've been to emerge a handful of times for myself, and never waited more than an hour. Last summer I got cellulitis (same virus that can cause flesh eating disease) when pregnant, I was triaged and immediately admitted to the wards (like within 15 minutes). I've taken my daughter into emerge and been in and out in the hour. I could go on about the great experience I've had. Anecdotes give us perceptions on healthcare that may or may not be validated by the actual evidence of wait times and such (and generally ppl don't rave when our healthcare does good work, so we seem to get stuck with only crappy stories).

Again I'm personally not sure that a two tiered system is the answer (it may improve the healthcare for some but will it improve it for all?). I think there are far better ways to improve our healthcare in the system we have -- as I've said before.

Oh I am certainly not making the claim that the two-tiered system is the answer. But I am asking our politicians to propose *something*, because the status quo is, yes, awful.

I've never waited less than 4 hours in emerge (whether for myself or with other people). And I'm not the kind who would go to emerge lightly, certainly not after all the wait times and the bad experiences I'm having!

I admit that I'm basing things are anecdotes, but honestly I can't think of a single case for myself or loved ones where things have gone smoothly in Canada (the worst is emerge in downtown Vancouver). I don't want to provide more anecdotes (such as: multiple errors in diagnosis, impossible wait times to see specialists, important surgeries reported at the last minute), one because hospital stories are not fun to read, and two for obvious privacy reasons. I just happen to know at least three healthcare systems well (I assure you the story from France wasn't an isolated case of getting lucky), as I'm old enough to have lived in three different countries long enough, for having lots of friends and family abroad, etc.

I LOVE the *idea* of our healthcare system. Believe me, I'm quite the lefty when it comes to most issues. But a socialist healthcare system becomes a bad one when it's underfunded, inefficient, and dogmatic. In fact, we HAVE a two-tiered system already, since very rich people can just go get their healthcare South of the border and avoid the long wait times and sub-optimal care.

There's plenty of ideas out there to improve the system. Just watch the many instances of the Agenda on TVO on the topic. There was a recent article in the Toronto Star (at least I think it was there, read it from my newsfeed), with plenty of creative suggestions from healthcare practitioners. My only point in all this was why is it that no political party is offering anything.

PS: I admire the work nurses do in these conditions. True heroes in my book. We should have Nurse Appreciation Night at the CTC instead of this sole focus on our military.

 

[DrEasy]

I haven't been able to stop listening to this the past few days

I have an unhealthy (blaming healthcare again!) obsession with all the pop music that came out in 1984.

 

[DrEasy]

I will say that in the Czech Republic wait times are a fraction of what they are in Canada. As DrEasy describes above, they are perfectly reasonable. Hell, you can even go to your GP without an appointment and get in. And by all accounts there is a doctor shortage here and the pay for hospital workers is abysmal.

What a concept! When you're sick, you go see your doctor! In all the places I've been, this has been the M.O. Everywhere, including some third world countries, except Canada. The closest thing we have here are walk-ins. But each time it's with a different doctor, so good luck building a history and getting holistic treatment.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

I have an unhealthy (blaming healthcare again!) obsession with all the pop music that came out in 1984.

83 to 88....that's like my heaven. Just at the time when music was starting to go all 1984 (the Orwell version, not the year) raising the alarm with all the crapola happenign aroudn the world...but still in a happy-go-lucky 80s sort of way. So many great bands in that era. Tear For Fears, Eurythmics, Chicago, Foreigner....plus holdovers from the 70s like Rush, America, Cheap Trick, etc.

And hey, 1984 was the emergence of Thriller. Still iconic.

 

[YouGotAStuGoing]

I think this is the fourth or fifth mention of Tears for Fears in the lounge and, for the life of me, I'll NEVER get the appeal.

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

Oh I am certainly not making the claim that the two-tiered system is the answer. But I am asking our politicians to propose *something*, because the status quo is, yes, awful.

I've never waited less than 4 hours in emerge (whether for myself or with other people). And I'm not the kind who would go to emerge lightly, certainly not after all the wait times and the bad experiences I'm having!

I admit that I'm basing things are anecdotes, but honestly I can't think of a single case for myself or loved ones where things have gone smoothly in Canada (the worst is emerge in downtown Vancouver). I don't want to provide more anecdotes (such as: multiple errors in diagnosis, impossible wait times to see specialists, important surgeries reported at the last minute), one because hospital stories are not fun to read, and two for obvious privacy reasons. I just happen to know at least three healthcare systems well (I assure you the story from France wasn't an isolated case of getting lucky), as I'm old enough to have lived in three different countries long enough, for having lots of friends and family abroad, etc.

I LOVE the *idea* of our healthcare system. Believe me, I'm quite the lefty when it comes to most issues. But a socialist healthcare system becomes a bad one when it's underfunded, inefficient, and dogmatic. In fact, we HAVE a two-tiered system already, since very rich people can just go get their healthcare South of the border and avoid the long wait times and sub-optimal care.

There's plenty of ideas out there to improve the system. Just watch the many instances of the Agenda on TVO on the topic. There was a recent article in the Toronto Star (at least I think it was there, read it from my newsfeed), with plenty of creative suggestions from healthcare practitioners. My only point in all this was why is it that no political party is offering anything.

PS: I admire the work nurses do in these conditions. True heroes in my book. We should have Nurse Appreciation Night at the CTC instead of this sole focus on our military.

Those rich people must be really rich, or have some portion covered? I made the mistake of being a poor college student when I was younger and went to the ER for about 3 hours. My bill came to $12,000.

Also, right going into college my dad was laid off, had a pre-existing condition, and had to go to the hospital uninsured, because of that we lost everything, house, cars, etc. All because of medical bills. It sucks, and I wish it on no person that they have to choose between trying to become healthy and financial ruin.

Canadian healthcare is a goddamn paradise compare to what people here have to deal with. Our country despises the poor.

 

[saskriders]

Going to a Brazilian rodizio restaurant next Wednesday for a birthday dinner

 

[YouGotAStuGoing]

Going to a Brazilian rodizio restaurant next Wednesday for a birthday dinner

View attachment 124039

Jealous!

 

[saskriders]

Jealous!

Have you been to one before?

I have only been once before and it was amazing.

 

[YouGotAStuGoing]

Have you been to one before?

I have only been once before and it was amazing.

Couple times. Once in Vegas with the family, once in Niagara on a bachelor party. Both some of the best culinary experiences of my life.

 

[Here I Pageau Again]

Oh I am certainly not making the claim that the two-tiered system is the answer. But I am asking our politicians to propose *something*, because the status quo is, yes, awful.

I've never waited less than 4 hours in emerge (whether for myself or with other people). And I'm not the kind who would go to emerge lightly, certainly not after all the wait times and the bad experiences I'm having!

I admit that I'm basing things are anecdotes, but honestly I can't think of a single case for myself or loved ones where things have gone smoothly in Canada (the worst is emerge in downtown Vancouver). I don't want to provide more anecdotes (such as: multiple errors in diagnosis, impossible wait times to see specialists, important surgeries reported at the last minute), one because hospital stories are not fun to read, and two for obvious privacy reasons. I just happen to know at least three healthcare systems well (I assure you the story from France wasn't an isolated case of getting lucky), as I'm old enough to have lived in three different countries long enough, for having lots of friends and family abroad, etc.

I LOVE the *idea* of our healthcare system. Believe me, I'm quite the lefty when it comes to most issues. But a socialist healthcare system becomes a bad one when it's underfunded, inefficient, and dogmatic. In fact, we HAVE a two-tiered system already, since very rich people can just go get their healthcare South of the border and avoid the long wait times and sub-optimal care.

There's plenty of ideas out there to improve the system. Just watch the many instances of the Agenda on TVO on the topic. There was a recent article in the Toronto Star (at least I think it was there, read it from my newsfeed), with plenty of creative suggestions from healthcare practitioners. My only point in all this was why is it that no political party is offering anything.

PS: I admire the work nurses do in these conditions. True heroes in my book. We should have Nurse Appreciation Night at the CTC instead of this sole focus on our military.

I do get that our healthcare has huge room for improvement and honestly there are lots of ways to improve it (as I've stated previously -- increased use of multiple levels of healthcare professionals). But ppl are selfish and greedy and things like unions get in the government's way. It's funny to see nurses complain about their patient loads but if you suggest hiring extra aide workers at a lower cost but far extra hands... God forbid that happen because me me me me.

But I've almost always had positive experiences with healthcare. And even in my unit we are completely over staffed! Which is kind of funny considering some other areas. And probably a reason why it is hard to leave such a great situation!

I will say my biggest pet peeve with healthcare funding is how it can't be open to be used in different ways. Say you have a tech budget but you don't need it one year.. well bye bye tech budget. So instead hospitals use it on tech when it really could be used elsewhere. But no.

I do agree that it isn't perfect and our money could be used far better (I don't actually think it is massively underfunded to be honest although we should rework our system sooner than later) but definitely don't feel it is as bad as many think it is.

 

[DrEasy]

I do get that our healthcare has huge room for improvement and honestly there are lots of ways to improve it (as I've stated previously -- increased use of multiple levels of healthcare professionals). But ppl are selfish and greedy and things like unions get in the government's way. It's funny to see nurses complain about their patient loads but if you suggest hiring extra aide workers at a lower cost but far extra hands... God forbid that happen because me me me me.

But I've almost always had positive experiences with healthcare. And even in my unit we are completely over staffed! Which is kind of funny considering some other areas. And probably a reason why it is hard to leave such a great situation!

I will say my biggest pet peeve with healthcare funding is how it can't be open to be used in different ways. Say you have a tech budget but you don't need it one year.. well bye bye tech budget. So instead hospitals use it on tech when it really could be used elsewhere. But no.

I do agree that it isn't perfect and our money could be used far better (I don't actually think it is massively underfunded to be honest although we should rework our system sooner than later) but definitely don't feel it is as bad as many think it is.

I wonder if the difference in our experiences with healthcare also comes from our respective knowledge of how to navigate the system. Maybe because of your own background in healthcare you know better where to go, how to find a family doctor, etc.

In my case, I tried for the longest time to find a family doctor, and the good ones were always fully booked and not accepting new patients. The one that I did find was such an arrogant and incompetent guy (confirmed later when I saw the comments about him online) that I gave up. I now just go to an AppleTree. There's often good doctors there, and if what you need is not urgent, you can try to go to the same doctor to build a history. It's not ideal though.

BTW I wonder if the difference between people who to go an AppleTree as opposed to a well established family doctor is not in itself a sign of inequality. You kind of "inherit" a good family doctor from your parents; what do you do if you are a recent immigrant?

Anyway, I sense that this healthcare stuff is not a fun topic for this lounge, so that'll be my last post on the subject.

 

[DrEasy]

83 to 88....that's like my heaven. Just at the time when music was starting to go all 1984 (the Orwell version, not the year) raising the alarm with all the crapola happenign aroudn the world...but still in a happy-go-lucky 80s sort of way. So many great bands in that era. Tear For Fears, Eurythmics, Chicago, Foreigner....plus holdovers from the 70s like Rush, America, Cheap Trick, etc.

And hey, 1984 was the emergence of Thriller. Still iconic.

I think there's a reason for that period being so prolific in good pop music: it coincided with pirate radio stations playing non mainstream music that got adopted by the more mainstream ones (at least that was the case in Europe, not sure about North America). Eventually though, consolidation happened, and now all radio stations play the same thing (within a given well-defined genre), and instead of DJs and music passionates doing the taste-making we have pre-made, pre-digested, pre-paid playlists.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

I think there's a reason for that period being so prolific in good pop music: it coincided with pirate radio stations playing non mainstream music that got adopted by the more mainstream ones (at least that was the case in Europe, not sure about North America). Eventually though, consolidation happened, and now all radio stations play the same thing (within a given well-defined genre), and instead of DJs and music passionates doing the taste-making we have pre-made, pre-digested, pre-paid playlists.

Could be. I know in that time MuchMusic made a point to push a lot of Canadian artists, as well. At that time, they actually played music videos instead of tv shows, so you had to find anyone and everyone with a good song to make a video to fill up all that airtime. There was a ton of 1-hit wonders, but it was also a time where there was a ton of different genres given good airtime...pop, metal, rap, even some jazz, country and classical getting good play.

Kinda funny...the days before the internet and youtube, having to sit there with the VHS tape waiting for specific videos to play so I could record them...lol, back in the days where I had a lot of patience. Things are so much easier today.

 

[Here I Pageau Again]

I wonder if the difference in our experiences with healthcare also comes from our respective knowledge of how to navigate the system. Maybe because of your own background in healthcare you know better where to go, how to find a family doctor, etc.

In my case, I tried for the longest time to find a family doctor, and the good ones were always fully booked and not accepting new patients. The one that I did find was such an arrogant and incompetent guy (confirmed later when I saw the comments about him online) that I gave up. I now just go to an AppleTree. There's often good doctors there, and if what you need is not urgent, you can try to go to the same doctor to build a history. It's not ideal though.

BTW I wonder if the difference between people who to go an AppleTree as opposed to a well established family doctor is not in itself a sign of inequality. You kind of "inherit" a good family doctor from your parents; what do you do if you are a recent immigrant?

Anyway, I sense that this healthcare stuff is not a fun topic for this lounge, so that'll be my last post on the subject.

To be honest I'll make one more point, I got my family doctor by applying for a program through the Ontario government that finds a physician for you in your area (which is available to everyone). So I didn't call a single doctor. I got placed with a family doctor in my area. I used what was available to everyone. (That said they may prioritize women and families). Also an issue with dr is we don't utilize NPs and we don't have enough doctors but that's a huge issue to tackle and more than just a funding issue

My view of the healthcare system may be tainted by my experience though because I can very easily see why things take longer than others so I'll often not be upset when things do take longer (and no amount of funding will get rid of stupid people). But I'm pretty cognisant to not use my healthcare background as a way to get ahead. I never even mention that I'm a nurse when I go places for care.

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

Congratulations on Doug Ford.

 

[maclean]

Congratulations on Doug Ford.

I'll say this, it's a great day to be living elsewhere

 

[Daffy]

I'll say this, it's a great day to be living elsewhere

I'll say this, it's a great day for Ontario than Wynne is out.

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

I will be visiting Ontario (Toronto) in July, they better have my buck a' beer policy enacted and ready to go! (Taken from somewhere else)