OT: Sens Lounge CVI - The O & D Edition

[Fandlauer]

as an example of what property taxes actually go towards, here’s a breakdown for Toronto.



There’s plenty to cut if there’s less need for officers. Get rid of beat cops, have unarmed social workers respond to mental health and drug calls. That’s probably over half of what police are dealing with now, and as has been shown time and time again, they’re not good at doing it. That’s not their fault, these are complicated issues that cops aren’t properly trained to deal with.
It’s not idealistic to think we can eradicate poverty and better support mentally ill and drug addicted people. It should actually be the number one priority of our society.

There’s several studies that estimate the cost to ending homeless in Canada to be less than 50 billion over ten years. This isn’t that much, and if it were done, there would be far less need for the bloated police budgets we have now.

The bolded is idealistic nonsense. I think having social workers present and even being able to take the lead on these calls would be great. That being said, sending them into many of these situations with no armed presence and all you will end up with is dead social workers. There has to be individuals present who are capable of physically restraining someone if need be.

 

[Knave]

as an example of what property taxes actually go towards, here’s a breakdown for Toronto.



There’s plenty to cut if there’s less need for officers. Get rid of beat cops, have unarmed social workers respond to mental health and drug calls. That’s probably over half of what police are dealing with now, and as has been shown time and time again, they’re not good at doing it. That’s not their fault, these are complicated issues that cops aren’t properly trained to deal with.
It’s not idealistic to think we can eradicate poverty and better support mentally ill and drug addicted people. It should actually be the number one priority of our society.

There’s several studies that estimate the cost to ending homeless in Canada to be less than 50 billion over ten years. This isn’t that much, and if it were done, there would be far less need for the bloated police budgets we have now.

Your tweet is a man using one form of city revenue and referring to total costs for police but willing to split out social services into 4 or more categories.

If police budgets are bloated so are social services. Period. Toronto spends nearly as much on social services as it does policing. If policing is bloated then social services must be too.

If 10.5% is too much for policing, why is 10.2% under-funding social services?

Also just an FYI all those social workers won't be working for free. They will still need police when mentally ill people and drug addicts get violent which they do FREQUENTLY - just ask a nurse at a hospital or a social worker.

It's nice that people out there are idealists who think the world's problems can be solved if only we defund the police and fund social workers but notice how there are no details and it's not based on any form of reality.

Police brutality and accountability is one thing. Defund the police is another.

 

[bicboi64]

Also just an FYI all those social workers won't be working for free. They will still need police when mentally ill people and drug addicts get violent which they do FREQUENTLY - just ask a nurse at a hospital or a social worker.

Hospitals have orderly's and security that are the first to arrive at situations when patients are violent. My gf is a mental health nurse and they rarely call the police. They aren't as well trained to physically restraint someone experiencing anything in the mental health domain. The assumption that cops are actively involved in medical situations is overblown

 

[Fandlauer]

Hospitals have orderly's and security that are the first to arrive at situations when patients are violent. My gf is a mental health nurse and they rarely call the police. They aren't as well trained to physically restraint someone experiencing anything in the mental health domain. The assumption that cops are actively involved in medical situations is overblown

Hospitals are also a much more controlled environment. Responding to someone who is violent in public or their own home is a completely different scenario.

 

[Knave]

Hospitals have orderly's and security that are the first to arrive at situations when patients are violent. My gf is a mental health nurse and they rarely call the police. They aren't as well trained to physically restraint someone experiencing anything in the mental health domain. The assumption that cops are actively involved in medical situations is overblown

Just to be clear here - you're pointing out they have staff on hand to restrain people because of the frequency of violence. But we'll send social workers to calls alone? Shouldn't we send someone capable of physically restraining a violent person to protect the social worker? Or maybe more than one like in a hospital? And sometimes even that won't be enough and we still need police?

And we're talking about getting rid of bloat here? Seems more like we're creating some and this social welfare program is quickly escalating in cost to the point where we could cut all retirement payments to retired officers, cut the department in half and it still wouldn't cover all these programs and plans.

The point I'm trying to make is "defund the police" is idealistic and not grounded in reality. It's not "fund social services better"... it's "defund the police". Police respond to thousands of domestic violence calls, disturbance calls every year and to think an unarmed social worker with no power could save these situations is naive.

Maybe we do need to spend more so these calls don't happen in the first place but defunding the police and just hoping for the best by hiring more social workers and providing more housing is silly and will only get more people killed.

 

[bicboi64]

Just to be clear here - you're pointing out they have staff on hand to restrain people because of the frequency of violence. But we'll send social workers to calls alone? Shouldn't we send someone capable of physically restraining a violent person to protect the social worker? Or maybe more than one like in a hospital? And sometimes even that won't be enough and we still need police?

And we're talking about getting rid of bloat here? Seems more like we're creating some and this social welfare program is quickly escalating in cost to the point where we could cut all retirement payments to retired officers, cut the department in half and it still wouldn't cover all these programs and plans.

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that mental health facilities in Canada, like CAMH rarely have to call the cops because they have personel whose job is to restrain individuals in addition to other typical med/admin duties. They don't call cops, because cops don't add any value or additional skillset that can assist in a violent situation. This fear that workers will get injured is already mitigated and addressed in medical facilities.

And just to be clear, programs like these already exist, even in the states. There are crisis response units and mobile harm reduction teams that assist people that are having situations that are caused by mental health issues (compounding with drugs and other factors). These social service teams don't go in alone, there are multiple people on calls and they already do what cops are unable to, they just aren't as funded because of the fear mongering created by people who think cops are significantly involved in de-escalation in a massive capacity.

 

[Knave]

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that mental health facilities in Canada, like CAMH rarely have to call the cops because they have personel whose job is to restrain individuals in addition to other typical med/admin duties. They don't call cops, because cops don't add any value or additional skillset that can assist in a violent situation. This fear that workers will get injured is already mitigated and addressed in medical facilities.

And just to be clear, programs like these already exist, even in the states. There are crisis response units and mobile harm reduction teams that assist people that are having situations that are caused by mental health issues (compounding with drugs and other factors). These social service teams don't go in alone, there are multiple people on calls and they already do what cops are unable to, they just aren't as funded because of the fear mongering created by people who think cops are significantly involved in de-escalation in a massive capacity.

So they have dedicated staff trained in use of force against other people. Where have I heard that kind of definition before?

Yes, programs do exist. I wonder what the costs are like for these programs considering we send out 1 maybe 2 cops on any given call... a simple solution is to cut policing even further and send 5 people to respond to a call? And we'll find the money for that ????

Like I said. Idealism. The math does not work.

 

[bicboi64]

Hospitals are also a much more controlled environment. Responding to someone who is violent in public or their own home is a completely different scenario.

Hospitals are more controlled than somewhere like the public or their own homes, but lets not forget the dangerous tools in hospitals. Its not uncommon for someone having a moment to get a hold of anything that can be used as a weapon. I'm not even talking about scalpels or syringes, it could be something as ordinary as a meal tray or whatnot. Personnel in this situations are still able to handle these situations without getting seriously injured.

unless of course there's some evidence that current medical personnel are in a systemic crisis where they're getting beat up by patients experiencing difficult mental health situations

 

[bicboi64]

So they have dedicated staff trained in use of force against other people. Where have I heard that kind of definition before?

Yes, programs do exist. I wonder what the costs are like for these programs considering we send out 1 maybe 2 cops on any given call... a simple solution is to cut policing even further and send 5 people to respond to a call? And we'll find the money for that ????

Like I said. Idealism. The math does not work.

Use of force isn't the primary focus, its de-escalation catered to address varieties of situations that the overwhelming majority of cops can't be trained to deal with (there are countless different mental health concerns/scenarios).

These programs are cheap because workers are paid so little. They have to apply for funding every year and are in dire need of more support. Workers get paid hourly, aren't even salaried. Even if we sent 5 people (which isn't what I said), it'll still be cheaper than a cop making 70+k a year lol. Police receive weapons for gear that isn't effective at assisting communities (mainly weapons). Leave that to the tactical units, and stop funding weapons for em and have that allocated to actual crisis response units. Its not idealism, its evidence based and already works in its limited occurrence. It just needs to be funded so that its a mainstream and regular part of our lives. We already spend a lot of $ on police training that clearly isn't working, why keep hitting our heads against the walls?

Plus we can give cops a break. They area already asked to solve crimes, community liaison, investigate, enforce regulatory stuff. So many different roles, mental health interaction should not be one of them, one individual can't realistically be trained in all of that. Take away mental health responsibility from them and let them focus on tasks they can actually do with the training they currently have.

 

[Knave]

Use of force isn't the primary focus, its de-escalation catered to address varieties of situations that the overwhelming majority of cops can't be trained to deal with (there are countless different mental health concerns/scenarios).

These programs are cheap because workers are paid so little. They have to apply for funding every year and are in dire need of more support. Workers get paid hourly, aren't even salaried. Even if we sent 5 people (which isn't what I said), it'll still be cheaper than a cop making 70+k a year lol. Police receive weapons for gear that isn't effective at assisting communities (mainly weapons). Leave that to the tactical units, and stop funding weapons for em and have that allocated to actual crisis response units. Its not idealism, its evidence based and already works in its limited occurrence. It just needs to be funded so that its a mainstream and regular part of our lives. We already spend a lot of $ on police training that clearly isn't working, why keep hitting our heads against the walls?

Plus we can give cops a break. They area already asked to solve crimes, community liaison, investigate, enforce regulatory stuff. So many different roles, mental health interaction should not be one of them, one individual can't realistically be trained in all of that. Take away mental health responsibility from them and let them focus on tasks they can actually do with the training they currently have.

Yeah, it won't be. The only reason it works in your examples is because of the small scale and the few people who are legitimately interested in dealing with and helping people in crisis.

Look at the massive shortage of PSWs as an example of what happens. And then remember this new program you're suggesting isn't for a few hundred thousand people in care homes in beds next to each other. They'll be covering cities, rural areas and millions of people spread out all over the place. It's just not feasible or realistic.

 

[bicboi64]

Yeah, it won't be. The only reason it works in your examples is because of the small scale and the few people who are legitimately interested in dealing with and helping people in crisis.

Look at the massive shortage of PSWs as an example of what happens. And then remember this new program you're suggesting isn't for a few hundred thousand people in care homes in beds next to each other. They'll be covering cities, rural areas and millions of people spread out all over the place. It's just not feasible or realistic.

So the programs I'm referring to, like harm reduction mobile crisis units are in urban settings like Ottawa and Vancouver where they have harm reduction sites. I assure you, these units aren't dealing with old people. As violent as old people get, them being well...old, makes them less dangerous. With proper funding, these units can cover cities and rural areas. Its already happening now and there's research to show that they are working considerably well given their resources (i'd suggest looking at UBC's Okanagan campus and their work in this capacity).

Also, why is is unrealistic for a proven category of unit to become even more effective via funding, but you make no reference to how much cops have to do and that not being realistic? Cops literally have 4-5 job roles. Investigating, mediators, enforcing regulatory laws, community liaison, mental health respondents, etc... Cops when initially formed in history only handled a couple of these, but we keep adding on to their work load. Its stopping them from being able to do effective work in their actual duties that help society (community building and investigating). We need to support our cops and stop giving them tasks that they aren't equipped for and actually being poorly equipped for (especially mental health).

Also, there's not a shortage of PSWs, the issue is the industry, especially in Ontario is brutally managed. They have neglected to pay adequate wages and resort to predatory tactics like poaching nursing students and try to get away with paying them $16-17 an hour, especially at a time like covid. If governments (lib, con, whomever) stepped up and realized people deserved to be paid living wages for PSWs, we wouldn't have what appears to be a shortage, which is actually people just not putting up with such poor pay for a strenuous job

 

[Stylizer1]

Have to second this, strangely here on the Sens forum is the only place in my world where I'm seeing sensible and reasoned discussion on the 2 big matters at hand currently, alot of logical and critical thinking which is refreshing!

It's so important to not let emotions cloud your judgement. It's always important to wait for as many facts to come out before getting worked up. What happened to Floyd was terrible and deserves justice. Jacob on the other was not as cut and dry. We all saw the first video and the description of the event.
The second video from the other side of the car shows him trying to be handcuffed on the ground and then gets up and walks around the car

8/27/20 Second Video of Jacob Blake Shooting Goes Viral - Court TV

This is very important.

Why has the question not been asked why did he go to the car? What if he was going for a gun?

Im not saying what happened was justified but what the f*** was he doing?

 

[Harbinger]

America is frightening these days.

 

[Stylizer1]

America is frightening these days.

They are as bad as fundamentalist and don't even realize it.

 

[Knave]

Anyone with experience using a forwarding service for companies that don't ship to Canada but will ship to the US?

 

[Stylizer1]

This guy is very thoughtful.

 

[CanadianHockey]

Police services and whatever the hell they're doing in the US definitely needs a complete overhaul. First of all, they're hiring the wrong people. It feels like all they do is recruit the kids from the local high school football team who aren't cut out for college, and simply put different uniforms on them. And their unions are too powerful....but we DO need to keep unions around. All workers need rights as workers and a good process to protect those rights. At the same time, how do you control the power of unions (and the potential to buy a huge block of votes) while still making sure unions can do the function they were created to perform?

You could simply treat police services the same way Canadian law treats the military. Military members cannot unionize - the idea being you don't want people entrusted by the state with the authority to exercise violence to use that power to disproportionately influence politics.

Instead, much of the collective bargaining agreements made with the public service unions are used to establish the baseline for benefits and salaries.

You could similarly bar police unions, but tie their benefit and salary packages to other emergency services (eg fire department or paramedics).

 

[thinkwild]

I think the main complaint about American police unions revolves around situations where a police chief determines that one of their officers needs to be fired and then the union goes to 3rd party arbitration and gets him his job back. The guy who kneeled on George Floyds neck had over a dozen complaints against him.

The famed New Jersey case where they defunded the police and rebuilt it back better got rid of the old union and when they came back were a much different union. An avenue for appeal still exists but it hopefully isn’t routine any longer.

There are so many guns in the States making their job there so much harder. Yet here even in the suburbs of Ottawa the vast majority of people I know are hunters with guns. But if it wasn’t for hunting seasons, I wouldn’t have known. I remember as a kid many many years ago I used to love all those American detective shows on tv. But as I got be a teenager I stopped watching because seeing all these people running through streets firing guns seemed so unbelievable to me. Little did I realize. Must be a lot harder to be a policeman there.

 

[Stylizer1]

 

[Fandlauer]

Anyone have any good experiences with local car dealerships? I'm looking to trade in my pickup for something my family friendly. Zero brand loyalty on my part, just looking for a dealership where they aren't total scumbags.

 

[saskriders]

Apparently I have been on this site for ten years.

 

[YouGotAStuGoing]

Anyone have any good experiences with local car dealerships? I'm looking to trade in my pickup for something my family friendly. Zero brand loyalty on my part, just looking for a dealership where they aren't total scumbags.

My sister was a dealer herself and I have a fair amount of friends who are or were in the industry too. Good luck — you'll need it. In my experience, car salespeople tend to treat the industry like a game of limbo — how low can you go. And I'm not talking price. Plenty of exposure but no good ones to recommend.

Apparently I have been on this site for ten years.

My deepest condolences.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Anyone have any good experiences with local car dealerships? I'm looking to trade in my pickup for something my family friendly. Zero brand loyalty on my part, just looking for a dealership where they aren't total scumbags.

Last year, made a purchase at Orleans Honda ................ even though I live much closer to few other Honda Dealers. They Were recommended to me by a couple f friends, and am not dissapointed.

 

[Senscore]

 

[Micklebot]

Poor mans version of the David Lynch classic