Post-Game Talk: SENS in Philly, Monday 7:00 pm

[solidprospect]

Firstly, can I get a link where you got that chart?

Secondly, not sure where you are going with your shot math. What are you trying to prove? So he's had about 670 shots against. That's not very good you know.

Thirdly, I never heard Crawford saying that. I heard Dorion saying that, which is pretty stupid thing to say. Can you please provide a link to the stats where it shows that forwards are avoiding Boro and most shots come from the other side of the ice? This is the third time I'm asking and you are avoiding providing info to back up your claim.

BTW, the whole thing about forwards would not like to go against players like Boro is a fallacy. Todd White himself has said many times on the radio that he preferred to go against big guys who couldn't skate (i.e. Boro) vs small guys who were good skaters (he mentioned Dan Boyle specifically).

@chartinghockey is where you will find it, pretty well know for many charts and stats.Right at the bottom of the picture

Is actually much less than 670 when you factor in missed shots, but let's worry about 5-6 d to fix shots against when they're not even on the ice much and other players clearly can't play a lick of defence.

Just because you never heard Crawford say that doesn't mean he did not or it's not true.

Just because Todd White doesn't mind being hit does not mean all forwards like being hit. its laughable that you think poke checking and sticking checking, back into your own zone and waiting until Andy finally covers the puck or lets in a goal, is considered good defence.

 

[solidprospect]

Zone entries are something that happens many times per game. Maybe worth getting or teaching d to step up and control the blueline better or find players that will, since y'know, most goals are scored after zone entries.

Or even someone that breaks up plays.

 

[God Says No]

@chartinghockey is where you will find it, pretty well know for many charts and stats.Right at the bottom of the picture

Is actually much less than 670 when you factor in missed shots, but let's worry about 5-6 d to fix shots against when they're not even on the ice much and other players clearly can't play a lick of defence.

Just because you never heard Crawford say that doesn't mean he did not or it's not true.

Just because Todd White doesn't mind being hit does not mean all forwards like being hit. its laughable that you think poke checking and sticking checking, back into your own zone and waiting until Andy finally covers the puck or lets in a goal, is considered good defence.

Man, it's frustrating having a discussion with you. I'm hoping you are not like this in real life.

You say a bunch of stuff and then don't back it up. So once again I'll ask you for the following, and I'm hoping to see some links to some actual data. Otherwise I'll assume you are pulling stuff out of your butt.

(1) Link to the tableau for OTT D zone entries and exits. I want you to post it as I know of that data and it's not exactly like what you posted. So either you altered it, or have some different source with bad data.

(2) Link to where you are getting this Boro shot data, because it's inaccurate and your own riffing on the numbers is highly questionable. Also I asked you what you are trying to prove with those numbers.

(3) We can play he said she said whether Crawford said it, but it doesn't matter. I'm still waiting on the following stats:
- Most shots are obviously on the opposite side of the ice
- Then add all the shots he blocks. Most of the shots against are due to other areas

Eagerly anticipating your response with the data.

 

[solidprospect]

Man, it's frustrating having a discussion with you. I'm hoping you are not like this in real life.

You say a bunch of stuff and then don't back it up. So once again I'll ask you for the following, and I'm hoping to see some links to some actual data. Otherwise I'll assume you are pulling stuff out of your butt.

(1) Link to the tableau for OTT D zone entries and exits. I want you to post it as I know of that data and it's not exactly like what you posted. So either you altered it, or have some different source with bad data.

(2) Link to where you are getting this Boro shot data, because it's inaccurate and your own riffing on the numbers is highly questionable. Also I asked you what you are trying to prove with those numbers.

(3) We can play he said she said whether Crawford said it, but it doesn't matter. I'm still waiting on the following stats:
- Most shots are obviously on the opposite side of the ice
- Then add all the shots he blocks. Most of the shots against are due to other areas

Eagerly anticipating your response with the data.

Have given you everything you asked for then you shoot it down and ask for more. Then ask for more, then ask for more.

I'm not spending all my time researching things for you that you are not going to believe or try arguing with me about it anyways.And then ask for more.

If you heard what crawford said everything would be fine right now and you wouldn't ask for me more, ask for more, ask for more. But because you didn't hear it directly from him, it's not true right.

Am trying to prove what our defencemans strengths are, boro is playing defence, other d on our team don't play d as well but they put up points here and there, i guess that makes bad d excusable.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Zone entries are something that happens many times per game. Maybe worth getting or teaching d to step up and control the blueline better or find players that will, since y'know, most goals are scored after zone entries.

Or even someone that breaks up plays.

What would the stats look like if a player has an inordinately high number of Dzone starts compared to any other zone?
And He managed to put it off the glass and out at a decent rate .. Say 20% of those shifts. I assume since you posted Boro had good zone exit stats that completed passes would not be a part of what is considered a zone exit.

Would his zone entry against stats look good? and his zone exit stats look good?

Can you provide a more complete statistical picture to your argument?

 

[solidprospect]

What would the stats look like if a player has an inordinately high number of Dzone starts compared to any other zone?
And He managed to put it off the glass and out at a decent rate .. Say 20% of those shifts. I assume since you posted Boro had good zone exit stats that completed passes would not be a part of what is considered a zone exit.

Would his zone entry against stats look good? and his zone exit stats look good?

Can you provide a more complete statistical picture to your argument?

He starts in the dzone more than most defenceman, i think it's more than any on our team, but zone entries happen so often than you have to give the ones that do it well credit.

Scott Stevens controlled the blue line, is Boro Scott Stevens? f*** no but that's what they're good at.

 

[solidprospect]

Increase ice time might give more zone entries, but it's not like he gets sheltered in road games without last change he has to play those shifts out.

At home he was matched with pageau-smith-paajarvi as our shut down line for awhile, possibly because his strength is defence.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

He starts in the dzone more than most defenceman, i think it's more than any on our team, but zone entries happen so often than you have to give the ones that do it well credit.

Scott Stevens controlled the blue line, is Boro Scott Stevens? **** no but that's what they're good at.

If Boro was Scott Stevens ... This discussion would not be going on.

 

[solidprospect]

If Boro was Scott Stevens ... This discussion would not be going on.

They both controlled the blue line, that was their strength defensively and yes obviously stevens is better i said that.

 

[God Says No]

Have given you everything you asked for then you shoot it down and ask for more. Then ask for more, then ask for more.

I'm not spending all my time researching things for you that you are not going to believe or try arguing with me about it anyways.And then ask for more.

If you heard what crawford said everything would be fine right now and you wouldn't ask for me more, ask for more, ask for more. But because you didn't hear it directly from him, it's not true right.

Am trying to prove what our defencemans strengths are, boro is playing defence, other d on our team don't play d as well but they put up points here and there, i guess that makes bad d excusable.

So you are pulling stuff out of your ass. You only provided 2 links, which had only 10% to do with what you mentioned. One showing the zone entries and exits which is WRONG BTW. here is the correct one:

Tableau Public

... and guess what? Boro is not the best at breaking up zone entries. He is pretty much on par with Chabot, Jaros and Wideman. But interestingly what it shows though is that he's absolutely BRUTAL at controlled zone exits.

Then you provided a link to total shots against. Which either you were consciously disingenuous, or dumb to not understand that if you play more minutes, you will allow more shots. Boro has played A LOT less minutes then the people you provided the list on. That's because he plays a little less minutes per game, but more importantly he's been injured and has played less games. You can't look purely at totals and compare. That's is foolish. What you should look at was shots against per 60 min. Guess what? Your boy Boro is right there with Ceci as the worst on the team. You know, Ceci who even you said is terrible defensively. Here are the numbers of the bottom 3 on the Sens:

Ceci: 38.65
Boro: 36.08
Lajoie: 35.76

source: Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

So you got a terrible defensive player, your boy, and a rookie who was sent down due to erratic defensive play. Doesn't paint a pretty picture does it?

 

[solidprospect]

Lol yeah, asking me to provide links for you when you can look them up yourself and know where to find them!

Shocking that Boro's stats changed since the last time the chart was updated, i wonder if we lost a bunch of players,coaches,lineups since then.

I like how you decide to ignore every other defenceman while continuing to talk about just one of them, even when they're shown to be bad defensively.

Let's worry about 5-6-7 d and talk about it for days.

 

[God Says No]

Lol yeah, asking me to provide links for you when you can look them up yourself and know where to find them!

Shocking that Boro's stats changed since the last time the chart was updated, i wonder if we lost a bunch of players,coaches,lineups since then.

I like how you decide to ignore every other defenceman while continuing to talk about just one of them, even when they're shown to be bad defensively.

Let's worry about 5-6-7 d, that must be the Oilers problem.

I asked for the link because I wasn't sure where you got your info from. I thought maybe I was looking at the wrong data. But basically this blows your argument #1 out of the water (i.e. Boro is the best on the team on zone entries). And it doesn't matter if all those things changed, since it's all relative to the other players on the team. So by that logic if it affected Boro, it affected the other players as well. Your argument was that he's solid defensively and best on the team on zone breakups. It's obvious now that you were wrong.

Here you are changing the subject again. We are not talking about other D. We are talking about Boro specifically. We can chat about other D if you wish. You are correct, they are not that great either. If we want to improve this team, then Ceci, Boro, Harpur have to go.

Yeah we should worry about 5,6,7 D. That's the point. A good team has good players even in the 5,6,7 slots. Same with bottom 6 forwards. This team has terrible players playing on the bottom pairing. The only way to improve is to improve everything. Get better D, push down the guys from the top to lower spots that will replace the likes of Boro and Ceci.

It's pretty apparent now that you don't know what you are talking about and can't back any of it up by stats/facts.

 

[solidprospect]

Actually we need #2-3-4 defenceman and have a several capable 5-6's already. That's the problem.

Even if Boro and Harpur WERE the worst defensive defenceman on the team, replacing 3rd pairing d isn't going to have a drastic impact on team performance based on ice time alone, it's just going to satisfy you're delusion.

 

[God Says No]

Actually we need #2-3-4 defenceman and have a several capable 5-6's already. That's the problem.

Even if Boro and Harpur WERE the worst defensive defenceman on the team, replacing 3rd pairing d isn't going to have a drastic impact on team performance based on ice time alone, it's just going to satisfy you're delusion.

You're right, it won't have a drastic change, but it will have an improvement none the less. That's the thing, the org shouldn't be looking for drastic improvements. It should be looking for small ones across the whole roster. Eventually all the small/medium ones will have resulted in a large one. A good team.

Please explain what my delusion is, because I just curb stomped yours with stats/facts.

 

[solidprospect]

You're right, it won't have a drastic change, but it will have an improvement none the less. That's the thing, the org shouldn't be looking for drastic improvements. It should be looking for small ones across the whole roster. Eventually all the small/medium ones will have a large one.

Please explain what my delusion is, because I just stomped yours with stats/facts.

That arguing about boro apparently being bad for three consecutive days following the philly game is stupid

Especially when you admit that it won't have a drastic change.

 

[God Says No]

That arguing about boro apparently being bad for three consecutive days following the philly game is stupid

Especially when you admit that it won't have a drastic change.

He's not apparently bad. He is bad. I argued about Boro because your arguments were stupid. I never said replacing Boro would cause this team to be magically great at SA.

 

[Deku]

So anything that won't make an immediate drastic change to the team is not worth discussing.
Why are we even on this board then?

 

[BondraTime]

It's pretty apparent now that you don't know what you are talking about and can't back any of it up by stats/facts.

That's been very apparent from the get-go.

 

[BonkTastic]

That's been very apparent from the get-go.

Like... Months ago, even.