Player Discussion Sens Goalie Situation moving forward

brakeyawself

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No, not to start the season, otherwise what would have been the purpose of signing Forsberg for another yr if not to be the backup in Ottawa. I doubt he would have signed if they said he was going to Belleville given he has played in the NHL for a number of yrs now, he's a vet. My guess is that he could be traded by the TDL & Gus will finish the yr in Ottawa, he's only 23 yrs old with plenty of time for him to work on his game & not get burned out too early in his career. And Ottawa gets to add another asset if hey move Forsberg. I think it's another transition yr although it's possible they are could be fighting for a playoff spot by the end of the yr, but probably unlikely. We'll see.

Another thought, if Gus does start out in Belleville, and Murray falters out of gate, do you thin they then carry three goalies if they bring Gus up? That's if Forsberg is still on the team at least.

How much leeway do they give Murray this season? And would they consider keeping Forsberg if he and Gus both outplayed Murray? Which, I don't think is necessarily "likely" but certainly a possibility given some of Murray's play the past few seasons.

I doubt they would be able to trade Murray, even without an NMC, which I am not sure if he has or not. But doubt anyone wants him at his current salary. Could you see a scenario where they offer to buy Murray out and move on without him as early as this season? Or is that basically, not an option for another season or two?
 

aragorn

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Another thought, if Gus does start out in Belleville, and Murray falters out of gate, do you thin they then carry three goalies if they bring Gus up? That's if Forsberg is still on the team at least.

How much leeway do they give Murray this season? And would they consider keeping Forsberg if he and Gus both outplayed Murray? Which, I don't think is necessarily "likely" but certainly a possibility given some of Murray's play the past few seasons.

I doubt they would be able to trade Murray, even without an NMC, which I am not sure if he has or not. But doubt anyone wants him at his current salary. Could you see a scenario where they offer to buy Murray out and move on without him as early as this season? Or is that basically, not an option for another season or two?
Sure, they would probably fake an injury to Murray & bring Gus up to play while they work with Murray behind the scenes again like they did last yr. They have invested a lot in Murray & he is signed for a few more yrs so it's in their interest to get him playing again like he ended the yr last yr. I doubt they trade him, but you never know if the offer is right, but who would want to trade for a goalie who can't stop the puck. hahaha Forsberg though is only signed for one yr so I expect him to be dealt at the deadline & then it should be Gus's job to lose after that.
 
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Korpse

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Murray has been a big disappointment I am sure. After watching him with the Pens and now Sens, I am really not sure what happened to him. His decline is noticeable, but it's hard to tell the root cause. And he's being payed a pretty hefty figure.

It's been pretty well documented by *cough* experts *cough* who have experience and knowledge. I don't know if you want to hear it though, might be an appeal to authority.
 
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Micklebot

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We'll see. I have heard this before with other goalies that have come into the org, but they have all gone to the ECHL in their rookie season, if there was guys already in place in the AHL. Daccord did when he first arrived, so did Mandolese who IMO paid his dues & is a pretty good goalie himself. Sogaard is a rookie & I expect he starts in the ECHL & after the TDL gets called up to the AHL. He will see a lot of pucks in the ECHL, it's a good developmental league especially for goalies & will be better for it. It's not a big deal or a demotion, it's for his development.

Mandolese is 4 months older than Sogaard and has 2 more AHL games to his name, not sure how one has paid their dues moreso than the other... Sogaard also got an additional 16 pro games in Denmark this past year.
 

brakeyawself

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It's been pretty well documented by *cough* experts *cough* who have experience and knowledge. I don't know if you want to hear it though, might be an appeal to authority.

Are you sure there's no amateurs who perceived and documented the same exact thing on their own? I'd be willing to bet there are. But sure go for it. Hit me with the hypothesis that some people working in hockey came up with. And I'll see how it compares to other arguments. What I won't do though is take it as gospel because some guy has a job. THAT would be an "appeal to authority". But not simply considering their explanation along with others.
 

ReginKarlssonLehner

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I'll tell you something--when I watched Gustavsson go back down to Belleville after having some NHL starts, the guy was a different animal; he was mesmerizing for real. Check back the threads and I just couldn't believe the saves he was making. I am hoping we found something special in Gustavsson.

I am floored we lost Daccord because I wanted them to duel it out and take over the reigns, now the pressure shifts to Gustavsson and say what you will about our depth, but the others are still quite, quite young to expect anything real special for another 3-4 years, imo
 
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Korpse

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Are you sure there's no amateurs who perceived and documented the same exact thing on their own? I'd be willing to bet there are. But sure go for it. Hit me with the hypothesis that some people working in hockey came up with. And I'll see how it compares to other arguments. What I won't do though is take it as gospel because some guy has a job. THAT would be an "appeal to authority". But not simply considering their explanation along with others.

Perhaps they have, but the extent of an explanation you'll see from most fans is that "he can't catch the puck". When you listen to someone who dedicates their time coaching or evaluating goaltenders they will talk about how offensive schemes in the NHL have focused more on creating lateral movement in recent years. Pittsburgh was ahead of the curve and did a good job preventing and creating lateral plays which result in a period of success on the back of a couple of Superstars who had entered their 30's. Matt Murray played with a wide stance that limited his lateral movement and at the start of his NHL career it wasn't a problem because Pittsburgh prevented those types of chances. The problem is, the NHL is a copy cat league and with the success of Pittsburgh other teams started to follow suit and focused more on lateral offense which caused Murray problems. He spent last off-season restructuring his style of play and with no pre-season he had limited opportunity to test those changes and make adjustments.

But that could all be bullshit I guess. Or maybe hockey is such detailed game that people like you and I will never fully understand how complex it is. On second thought it is played by 6 year olds.
 

brakeyawself

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Perhaps they have, but the extent of an explanation you'll see from most fans is that "he can't catch the puck". When you listen to someone who dedicates their time coaching or evaluating goaltenders they will talk about how offensive schemes in the NHL have focused more on creating lateral movement in recent years. Pittsburgh was ahead of the curve and did a good job preventing and creating lateral plays which result in a period of success on the back of a couple of Superstars who had entered their 30's. Matt Murray played with a wide stance that limited his lateral movement and at the start of his NHL career it wasn't a problem because Pittsburgh prevented those types of chances. The problem is, the NHL is a copy cat league and with the success of Pittsburgh other teams started to follow suit and focused more on lateral offense which caused Murray problems. He spent last off-season restructuring his style of play and with no pre-season he had limited opportunity to test those changes and make adjustments.

But that could all be bullshit I guess. Or maybe hockey is such detailed game that people like you and I will never fully understand how complex it is. On second thought it is played by 6 year olds.

Certainly seems plausible. I am sure they are at least in part, on to something. I wouldn't exactly call that "complex" though, but perhaps we have different concepts of the word. Nor would I think that fairly straightforward explanation requires getting payed to "dedicate their time". Which you did not say, but seemed to imply. I could be wrong about that last part though. But that seems the crux of the general argument here.

I am really not interested in the "explanation....from most fans". Nor would I consider "most fans" insightful regarding every aspect of the game.

"When you listen to someone who dedicates their time coaching or evaluating goaltenders"...... So you are suggesting that this IS the explanation that ALL people who "dedicate their time coaching and evaluating goaltenders" will give? I certainly don't know the answer to this. But the way you worded it, that seems like what you are suggesting. What happens then if two different people who both "dedicate their time" have a difference of opinion? Does the world collapse? Or is it possible for 2 people who both "dedicate their time" to come up with 2 different explanations for the same thing? And is it possible to dedicate time without getting payed as a professional? Really, that's the entire argument here. Whether getting payed for something means you know more than someone who doesn't get payed for the same thing. At least, that is exactly what I have been arguing since the very beginning.

"All bullshit"? No, i highly doubt it's ALL bullshit. But that also does not mean it covers every aspect of the "why". There is also a human element. A human element without the possibility of external insight. And whenever you deal with a human element, you deal with uncertainty. So whether that explanation is true or not, it isn't necessarily the underlying cause or only cause. If there is one underlying cause even. I suspect it's more likely a multivariate situation. One with certain aspects that can never actually be deciphered, regardless of how much time one dedicates and some aspects that can. I am sure there are certain aspects that could be more readily deciphered by a psychologist than a goalie coach. But then, that's not really an aspect of the sport itself, but an aspect of anything that involves human beings. Human beings, are complicated by the way. If you were wondering. Unlike sports.

And yes, 6 year olds do play hockey. And I am sure some understand the game in great depth. And hockey does have it's own detail. But that detail isn't really complicated in terms of what humans are capable of understanding.

Even if it ended up "all (being) bullshit" that does not necessarily mean it's "complex". One does not necessarily follow the other. There are numerous reasons sports are so widely followed, so widely played and so widely accessible. And it is in part because they generally aren't very complicated relative to other realms. Detailed? Sure. Finer elements? Sure. Complicated? Not so much. Don't confuse all forms of detail with complexity. Some might suggest that some NFL playbooks are "complex". And perhaps relative to other playbooks, they are. But relative to the capabilities of human understanding, they are not. Seems there is this idea out there that I am for some reason, not accounting for the fine detail that these games entail at a higher level. But no, I am fully accounting for those things as well. While those fine details may be less obvious than others, they are still not "complicated" or "difficult to understand". I don't care if you are talking about in game tactics, techniques, whether you are talking about a batting stance a throwing stance or a goalie stance, all things considered, these are all things most anyone CAN understand and there are numerous paths to that understanding. Which is why sports are so accessible. But that doesn't mean everyone does understand. And if you truly think these things are complicated, then I am sorry. I'm glad I am not you. But I am sorry none the less.
 
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Korpse

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Certainly seems plausible. I am sure they are at least in part, on to something. I wouldn't exactly call that "complex" though, but perhaps we have different concepts of the word. Nor would I think that fairly straightforward explanation requires getting payed to "dedicate their time". Which you did not say, but seemed to imply. I could be wrong about that last part though. But that seems the crux of the general argument here.

I am really not interested in the "explanation....from most fans". Nor would I consider "most fans" insightful regarding every aspect of the game.

"When you listen to someone who dedicates their time coaching or evaluating goaltenders"...... So you are suggesting that this IS the explanation that ALL people who "dedicate their time coaching and evaluating goaltenders" will give? I certainly don't know the answer to this. But the way you worded it, that seems like what you are suggesting. What happens then if two different people who both "dedicate their time" have a difference of opinion? Does the world collapse? Or is it possible for 2 people who both "dedicate their time" to come up with 2 different explanations for the same thing? And is it possible to dedicate time without getting payed as a professional? Really, that's the entire argument here. Whether getting payed for something means you know more than someone who doesn't get payed for the same thing. At least, that is exactly what I have been arguing since the very beginning.

"All bullshit"? No, i highly doubt it's ALL bullshit. But that also does not mean it covers every aspect of the "why". There is also a human element. A human element without the possibility of external insight. And whenever you deal with a human element, you deal with uncertainty. So whether that explanation is true or not, it isn't necessarily the underlying cause or only cause. If there is one underlying cause even. I suspect it's more likely a multivariate situation. One with certain aspects that can never actually be deciphered, regardless of how much time one dedicates and some aspects that can. I am sure there are certain aspects that could be more readily deciphered by a psychologist than a goalie coach. But then, that's not really an aspect of the sport itself, but an aspect of anything that involves human beings. Human beings, are complicated by the way. If you were wondering. Unlike sports.

And yes, 6 year olds do play hockey. And I am sure some understand the game in great depth. And hockey does have it's own detail. But that detail isn't really complicated in terms of what humans are capable of understanding.

Even if it ended up "all (being) bullshit" that does not necessarily mean it's "complex". One does not necessarily follow the other. There are numerous reasons sports are so widely followed, so widely played and so widely accessible. And it is in part because they generally aren't very complicated relative to other realms. Detailed? Sure. Finer elements? Sure. Complicated? Not so much. Don't confuse all forms of detail with complexity. Some might suggest that some NFL playbooks are "complex". And perhaps relative to other playbooks, they are. But relative to the capabilities of human understanding, they are not. Seems there is this idea out there that I am for some reason, not accounting for the fine detail that these games entail at a higher level. But no, I am fully accounting for those things as well. While those fine details may be less obvious than others, they are still not "complicated" or "difficult to understand". I don't care if you are talking about in game tactics, techniques, whether you are talking about a batting stance a throwing stance or a goalie stance, all things considered, these are all things most anyone CAN understand and there are numerous paths to that understanding. Which is why sports are so accessible. But that doesn't mean everyone does understand. And if you truly think these things are complicated, then I am sorry. I'm glad I am not you. But I am sorry none the less.

Have a good night.
 

DylanSensFan

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I'll tell you something--when I watched Gustavsson go back down to Belleville after having some NHL starts, the guy was a different animal; he was mesmerizing for real. Check back the threads and I just couldn't believe the saves he was making. I am hoping we found something special in Gustavsson.

I am floored we lost Daccord because I wanted them to duel it out and take over the reigns, now the pressure shifts to Gustavsson and say what you will about our depth, but the others are still quite, quite young to expect anything real special for another 3-4 years, imo


I think Murray is going to have a good season this year. I also think Gustavsson is going to push him sooner, rather than later. Gus isn't looking to compete for who makes it to the big club. I think he wants to compete for who is the starter of the big club. I sense that Murray knows Gus is hot on his heals and hopefully this pushes him to work hard on strength and conditioning.
 
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bert

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Sorry, if there was another thread on this I didn't see it when "searching".

Just curious what Sens fans opinion of their goalie situation is going into 2021-22.

Losing Daccord stinks. But not the end of the world.

Murray has been a big disappointment I am sure. After watching him with the Pens and now Sens, I am really not sure what happened to him. His decline is noticeable, but it's hard to tell the root cause. And he's being payed a pretty hefty figure.

That brings me to Gustavsson. This guy was, for a long time, supposed to be the goalie of the "future". He had a rocky trip, but near the end of last season, he seems to have finally arrived.

I thought the Sens might try to grab a good goalie prospect in the draft. Even perhaps Gaudreau later on in the draft. But they did not. Frankly, I would be pretty disappointed with the Sens 2021 draft. But they certainly aren't the only team that made some questionable choices.

How do you guys see the future of Sens goaltending panning out? I have to imagine they are fully behind Gustavsson and this point as part of their future. He really did look THAT good at the end of the 20-21 season. All be it in a short sample size. While Murray hasn't really looked like the starter he's supposed to be since he arrived.

I personally love Gustavsson as a GK prospect. And I think he does have a big future ahead of him. It probably is for the best that he does have Murray around to take pressure and the spotlight off of him. That seems like a better environment to progress as a young goalie.

Do Sens fans see Murray falling behind Gustavsson as early as this season? I assume they won't want to re-sign Murray when his contract is up, but they probably also will not be able to move him before then either. Which means one of their GK spots is taken for the foreseeable future.

The other spot, a bit more up in the air, but I am guessing Gustavsson will take that and they will be played in some fairly even time share. Unless the Sens sign a FA goalie to add to the mix. Well, I assume they will sign a goalie just for depth, but I don't think it would be wise to sign someone that would take playing time away from Gustavsson.

Sens fans feel comfortable and happy with Gustavsson going forward? Or are there still a lot of concerns about him in the long run?
Why don't you do some actual research before starting a thread and writing a novel. You don't know who Soogard is and didn't know they signed Forsberg.
 

operasen

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Apr 27, 2004
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All of this is not taking injuries into account

2021-22 : NHL : Muray - Forsberg / AHL : Gustavsson - Sogaard
2022-23 : Muray - Gustavsson / AHL : Sogaard - Merilainen
2023-24 : Muray - Gustavsson / AHL : Sogaard - Merilainen
2024-25 : Gustavsson - Sogaard / AHL : Merilainen - Romeo

Of course it depends if someone develops faster than anticipated. Murray could also be traded along the way, or even extended after his contract



Mandolese is only 4 months older and has only played 2 more AHL games than Sogaard by the way

I really doubt Mandolese is going to be in the AHL over Sogaard, the 6'8 goalie from Denmark they traded up to get early in the 2nd round in 2019. I think the organization is pretty damn high on him, and might eventually choose him over all others

I think he's our goalie of the future, even if Gustavsson is going to be good too
Maybe we get lucky and can move Murray at trade deadline. Gustavsson, Sogaard and Merlainen (and Romeo of course) are the real future.
 

Xspyrit

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Maybe we get lucky and can move Murray at trade deadline. Gustavsson, Sogaard and Merlainen (and Romeo of course) are the real future.

haha yeah... but seriously no rush to move Murray... I mean we're like 10 M$ under the cap floor at the moment lol

I'd rather see Gustavsson having to compete and "steal" the job away from a guy that already made a name for himself. If he "bounces back", then it's all gravy
 

Sens of Anarchy

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Goaltending is going to be critical for the Sens to continue their upward trajectory as a team. I don't think they would hesitate to call Gus up if one or both of the targeted starters (Murray, Forsberg) falters. We have to have both fingers crossed that Murray can rebound.
 
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Ice-Tray

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Are you sure there's no amateurs who perceived and documented the same exact thing on their own? I'd be willing to bet there are. But sure go for it. Hit me with the hypothesis that some people working in hockey came up with. And I'll see how it compares to other arguments. What I won't do though is take it as gospel because some guy has a job. THAT would be an "appeal to authority". But not simply considering their explanation along with others.

To put it briefly (lol), aside from new team/house/baby/COVID, Murray had to change his playing style to adapt to changes in the NHL (according to him).

While injured we brought in a new goalie coach who worked with Murray to make said changes to his form and style. Murray credits this coach with helping him make the necessary changes to his game.

Upon return from injury and extended work with said coach, Murray was lights out, like a new tender, until he was injured again.

In sum, there is cause for positivity around his play next season, and you have to give props to a guy who identified areas of his play that were behind the times, and who worked his ass off to address them.

(I believe much has to do with his instinctual play on and off the post)

Murray seems like a really self aware person, takes personal responsibility for his play in public, and genuinely sounds like he loves playing for the team. I’m hoping it works out because I really like the guy.
 
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Tuna99

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So many strong candidates it’ll be hard to pick the best one.

Apparently Pierre Mcquire got all the prospect goalies to drop a log in his office toilet and the one with the biggest log got the starting net in Belleville - Mads Sogaard with a 21 inch coiler. Unreal Mads, congrats.
 

aragorn

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Maybe we get lucky and can move Murray at trade deadline. Gustavsson, Sogaard and Merlainen (and Romeo of course) are the real future.

Romeo is a defencemen not a goalie .... & .... he is also some guy courting Juliette....
 

Boud

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We're fine in net IMO. Obviously we could be doing great if Murray was good but if Gustavsson and /or Forsberg can keep their level of play we'll win some games. Earlier in the year we got destroyed because neither of Murray or Hogberg could stop a puck. Now we're in a better position since we know that both our backup options can win games for us. Murray was better towards the end of the year... Even though I'm not confident in him at all... I hope he can be a. 910 goalie at least. He'll be on a short leash I imagine, DJ is all about who wins gets the starts.

I think having a better backup will also allow Murray to be more composed/relaxed knowing that if he's not playing great then the team will still be able to win games with Forsberg/Gus
 
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brakeyawself

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To put it briefly (lol), aside from new team/house/baby/COVID, Murray had to change his playing style to adapt to changes in the NHL (according to him).

While injured we brought in a new goalie coach who worked with Murray to make said changes to his form and style. Murray credits this coach with helping him make the necessary changes to his game.

Upon return from injury and extended work with said coach, Murray was lights out, like a new tender, until he was injured again.

In sum, there is cause for positivity around his play next season, and you have to give props to a guy who identified areas of his play that were behind the times, and who worked his ass off to address them.

(I believe much has to do with his instinctual play on and off the post)

Murray seems like a really self aware person, takes personal responsibility for his play in public, and genuinely sounds like he loves playing for the team. I’m hoping it works out because I really like the guy.

Ahh cool. That seems like a bigger factor in this than the other explanation of tactical differences between Pens and Sens suggested earlier. All though I think they both probably can be true to different extents. What you said here though seems plausibly the main issue.

He's still fairly young too. I was kind of surprised when Pens traded him. Jarry did look good that year, but it still seemed weird. And now, Jarry hasn't really been so hot since Murray left. So it's really hard to suggest the Pens made the right choice at this point.

Anyway, I am not rooting for Murray to fail, but I am a big fan of Gus. I'd be happy if they just split starts for the next few seasons. Even if Gus starts off the year in Belleville.

I also think Chabot hasn't looked his best this past season. Not sure why, that worries me a bit. But with Jake Sanderson eventually on his way, and other additions, Sens look to have a bright defensive future, which should be good for the goalies. I am just not sure where Brannstrom really fits in at this point. I wouldn't call him a bust, but he certainly doesn't look like the player Sens thought they were getting. I still think Chabot remains the main PP d and top pair though.
 

brakeyawself

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I'll tell you something--when I watched Gustavsson go back down to Belleville after having some NHL starts, the guy was a different animal; he was mesmerizing for real. Check back the threads and I just couldn't believe the saves he was making. I am hoping we found something special in Gustavsson.

I am floored we lost Daccord because I wanted them to duel it out and take over the reigns, now the pressure shifts to Gustavsson and say what you will about our depth, but the others are still quite, quite young to expect anything real special for another 3-4 years, imo

Yea, it would be foolhardy to assume any of those very young guys will surpass any of the NHL ready guys in the distant future. All or none of them could be with the club at that point and they could just as easily stagnate as progress.

I do think Daccord was a big loss. But couldn't really avoid it. The Kraken had so many Gk options in the expansion, there was no real way of knowing who'd they take.

That's good to hear about Gus. Just from watching him, end of last season. I haven't seen any of the younger guys. But I would be shocked if any of them actually surpassed Gus eventually, just based on how good he looked. Especially compared to previous years.
 

brakeyawself

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Weird how you didn't mention Mads.

Also, weird how you suggest they might sign a free agent.

Ottawa has almost too many goalies.

Murray and Forsberg in the NHL.

Then you have Gustavsson and sogaard in the AHL.

Then you have mandolese and merilainen.

Ottawa has to get rid of goalies, not add more.

Both Gustavsson and sogaard should be getting the majority of AHL starts...so there's already a logjam there.

Missed this the other day. But there were numerous reports like this prior to the draft and free agency. All suggesting the possibility of adding a goalie. Maybe everyone involved, from the writers to the editors and down the line, are weird?

How the Senators are approaching the NHL Draft: 'We're not scared to take a goalie at any point'

SNAPSHOTS: Senators haven't ruled out taking a goalie in the draft if they happen to lose one to the Seattle Kraken | Ottawa Sun

Senators 2021 NHL Draft Preview: Expect a strong pick at 10th overall

and like 10 other articles/sources writing about the possibility of adding a goalie after the expansion draft. Including it seems, the organization itself.
 

OgieO

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May 17, 2006
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Perhaps they have, but the extent of an explanation you'll see from most fans is that "he can't catch the puck". When you listen to someone who dedicates their time coaching or evaluating goaltenders they will talk about how offensive schemes in the NHL have focused more on creating lateral movement in recent years. Pittsburgh was ahead of the curve and did a good job preventing and creating lateral plays which result in a period of success on the back of a couple of Superstars who had entered their 30's. Matt Murray played with a wide stance that limited his lateral movement and at the start of his NHL career it wasn't a problem because Pittsburgh prevented those types of chances. The problem is, the NHL is a copy cat league and with the success of Pittsburgh other teams started to follow suit and focused more on lateral offense which caused Murray problems. He spent last off-season restructuring his style of play and with no pre-season he had limited opportunity to test those changes and make adjustments.

But that could all be bullshit I guess. Or maybe hockey is such detailed game that people like you and I will never fully understand how complex it is. On second thought it is played by 6 year olds.
Yeah, I tend to think this is the biggest reason for optimism with Murray. Kevin Woodley echoed your comments about style change last year and he'd know. Hopefully the transformation works.
 

Micklebot

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Yeah, I tend to think this is the biggest reason for optimism with Murray. Kevin Woodley echoed your comments about style change last year and he'd know. Hopefully the transformation works.

There have been a few goalies over the years that have made drastic changes to their game and come out better, Dubnyk comes to mind as a success story. Not sure how many guys tried and failed though... Maybe Lalime after they made the overdrive blades illegal? Probably quite a few goalies that failed to adapt to equipment changes, that might be a bit of a different scenario.

Murray definitely has the talent, hope he can adapt and get back to where he was because with his athleticism and ability to read the play he could be very good once again.
 

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