topshelf15
Registered User
- May 5, 2009
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Also seeing as Iam in the right thread,let me pose the question to you guys here....Does the CTC make a profit???And was the CTC not purpose built for the hockey team??
Also seeing as Iam in the right thread,let me pose the question to you guys here....Does the CTC make a profit???And was the CTC not purpose built for the hockey team??
EM cant be a part of this development,he will just be given another life line to keep sucking away from the team
Again ,the arena with most successful teams and owners is an engine that supports the growth of the team ....To grow the team/market any and all revenues should have been used to facilitate more and sustainable revenue sources...In short... Team and market health... Should come far before any profit from anything remotely connected to the team SHOULD BE REALISED BY THE OWNER.....The Arena is a separate business.
The NHL Franchise is a separate business.
Under the terms of the CBA, non hockey events, held at the CTC, are not recorded as HRR, because they are not related to hockey.
The NHLPA is not entitled to a 50% of the cost of beer sold at a Disney on Ice event held at the CTC or any other NHL arena.
To suggest otherwise show a lack of understanding of how the Senator's franchise is operated, as per the economics of hockey and the CBA.
EM has flip flopped on owning the arena outright,to gaining a free one based on a 30 year lease....He isnt doing this to not realise profit at the expense of the team,s healthWhich is it?
Will he suck money away from the development to fund the team, or suck money away from the team to fund the development?
On one hand you want all profits generated at the CTC, that are NOT Senator games, (concerts, monster track rallies ) to be sucked away and counted as HRR to fund the operations of the Senators franchise ........... even though they're two separately registered businesses.
Does any other NHL team do this?
The answer is not, they don't.
31 Dec 2010 | 0.970701 |
31 Dec 2011 | 1.011464 |
31 Dec 2012 | 1.00023 |
31 Dec 2013 | 0.971164 |
31 Dec 2014 | 0.905912 |
31 Dec 2015 | 0.782992 |
31 Dec 2016 | 0.755107 |
31 Dec 2017 | 0.771282 |
31 Dec 2018 | 0.771588 |
03 Feb 2019 | 0.752831 |
Why the arguement about the fans and the team losing millions hold little to no valueSince this keeps getting talked about in other threads where it doesn't belong, here's one where it's actually appropriate to discuss it in.
Some references that could be pertinent.
Forbes Valuations
Current: Ottawa Senators on the Forbes The Business of Hockey List
Historical: Wayback Machine
TV deals:
NHL, Rogers announce landmark 12-year deal
Rogers Canadian national deal: 5.3 Bil CAD, ~14 mil per year to each year 2014/15 to 2026/27
NHL, NBC sign record-setting 10-year TV deal
NBC US national deal, 2 Bil USD, ~6.5 mil USD to each team per year, 2010/11 to 2020/21
WOW! Ottawa Senators TV deal worth up to $400M
TSN Sens Regional deal, 400 mil CAD, ~33.3 mil CAD per year. 2014/15 to 2026/27
Yearly Average Rates | OFX
End of year average ROE
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
31 Dec 2010 0.970701 31 Dec 2011 1.011464 31 Dec 2012 1.00023 31 Dec 2013 0.971164 31 Dec 2014 0.905912 31 Dec 2015 0.782992 31 Dec 2016 0.755107 31 Dec 2017 0.771282 31 Dec 2018 0.771588 03 Feb 2019 0.752831
Pretty much,instead of crying poor when you are stuffing money into your pockets from the arena...How about you dont take a paycheck ,until you get the team humming and able to stand on its ownNo one is suggesting non-hockey stuff should count towards HRR. The CBA clearly defines what counts as HRR. The NHL and NHLPA force Melnyk to account for every penny of HRR.
The business structure that Melnyk sets for his business and how he chooses to account for his businesses is between Melnyk and CRA. Melnyk’s profit/loss statement for any of his business operations or the sum of his business operations has nothing to do with the NHL or the NHLPA.
What people are suggesting is that the losses Melnyk cites for the franchise are meaningless, as his other business ventures in Ottawa would fail without the Sens. Additionally, thee operations as a whole are profitable.
So YES, Melnyk should spend profits from the CTC to fund the “losses” on the Sens. Multiple businesses world wide operate on this basis. The bottom line matters and claims of losses are irrelevant.
Other people suggesting that the CTC "profits" do not cover up the losses on the hockey club. No one knows for sure, but judging by the empty arena this year, it doesn't take much for one to believe that the losses this season will be unprecedented.No one is suggesting non-hockey stuff should count towards HRR. The CBA clearly defines what counts as HRR. The NHL and NHLPA force Melnyk to account for every penny of HRR.
The business structure that Melnyk sets for his business and how he chooses to account for his businesses is between Melnyk and CRA. Melnyk’s profit/loss statement for any of his business operations or the sum of his business operations has nothing to do with the NHL or the NHLPA.
What people are suggesting is that the losses Melnyk cites for the franchise are meaningless, as his other business ventures in Ottawa would fail without the Sens. Additionally, the operations as a whole are profitable.
So YES, Melnyk should spend profits from the CTC to fund the “losses” on the Sens. Multiple businesses world wide operate on this basis. The bottom line matters and claims of losses are irrelevant.
I don't know. I would think it does. But I don't know how much debt servicing is laid on the arena, or how renovations that have been happening are paid for, or infrastructure/ upgrades and maintenance are paid for.Also seeing as Iam in the right thread,let me pose the question to you guys here....Does the CTC make a profit???And was the CTC not purpose built for the hockey team??
Meh it was more directing traffic with a certain posterI don't know. I would think it does. But I don't know how much debt servicing is laid on the arena, or how renovations that have been happening are paid for, or infrastructure/ upgrades and maintenance are paid for.
The CTC was purpose built for the hockey team, not sure why you need clarification for that, or what your point is.
Open books for NHL teams would be pretty amazing for these discussions.
Speculation is fun until we remember that we don’t actually have any solid numbers to work with.
Boo
It would be. Arizona was forced into due to bankruptcy proceedings a while back and gives some insight into what it would look like:
A bit dated, but gives an idea as to what revenue streams and expenses exist for the clubs.
Thanks for this, an incredible 23M of revenue from the NHL. In today's mugh higher revenue sharing based on much higher revenues, one has to think Melnyk might be getting 13M himself this season.It would be. Arizona was forced into due to bankruptcy proceedings a while back and gives some insight into what it would look like:
A bit dated, but gives an idea as to what revenue streams and expenses exist for the clubs.
It would potentially undermine owners attempts to get gov't to subsidize new arenas, particularly in the more profitable markets.That really would as a whole new element for the more numbers minded fans around the league.
You’d have drafting, development, trades, and accounting!
I wonder if there was a way to monetize it.
Thanks for this, an incredible 23M of revenue from the NHL. In today's mugh higher revenue sharing based on much higher revenues, one has to think Melnyk might be getting 13M himself this season.
Yeah, good point, could be 20M , easy. I wonder how many teams are getting money? Probably Vancouver, Calgary, Ottawa in Canada. Then Anaheim, Carolina, NYI, Arizona, Florida, CBJ, Devils.The revenue sharing program is based of a % of total league HRR, 0.06055% to be exact. using 5 bil as the expected HRR this year, that would mean a pool of about 300 mil to be split across the bottom 21 teams. A committee decides the way that pool is divide up. If things are as bad as they appear this year, I suspect he'll get more than 13 mil USD.
Yeah, good point, could be 20M , easy. I wonder how many teams are getting money? Probably Vancouver, Calgary, Ottawa in Canada. Then Anaheim, Carolina, NYI, Arizona, Florida, CBJ, Devils.
Teams receive revenue sharing if they qualify for it under the terms of the collective bargaining agreement. One NHL executive said that, generally speaking, the way NHL revenue sharing works is that the teams that finish in the top 10 in revenues share some of those revenues with the teams that finish from 11 through 31. This isn’t always the case, but it appears to be a general rule. He said the Flames will not have finished in the top 10 in 2016-17 and are not in the bottom 10 either. That means they will receive somewhere in the neighbourhood of $1 million-$2 million at the upper end and $10 million-$12 million if they are down around 20.
It would potentially undermine owners attempts to get gov't to subsidize new arenas, particularly in the more profitable markets.
It would be. Arizona was forced into due to bankruptcy proceedings a while back and gives some insight into what it would look like:
A bit dated, but gives an idea as to what revenue streams and expenses exist for the clubs.
Ticket revenue is almost the same as revenue sharing. LOL Only 4.4 million for broadcast revenue. The Sens get like 40 million. The Yotes should get first dibs on any relocation!
those numbers are from 2009. idk what our tv revenues were before the big rogers deal and our tsn deal but they were peanuts compared to our current numbers