Speculation: Sens finances discussions

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topshelf15

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Also seeing as Iam in the right thread,let me pose the question to you guys here....Does the CTC make a profit???And was the CTC not purpose built for the hockey team??
 

Tnuoc Alucard

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Also seeing as Iam in the right thread,let me pose the question to you guys here....Does the CTC make a profit???And was the CTC not purpose built for the hockey team??



The Arena is a separate business.

The NHL Franchise is a separate business.

Under the terms of the CBA, non hockey events, held at the CTC, are not recorded as HRR, because they are not related to hockey.

The NHLPA is not entitled to a 50% of the cost of beer sold at a Disney on Ice event held at the CTC or any other NHL arena.

To suggest otherwise show a lack of understanding of how the Senator's franchise is operated, as per the economics of hockey and the CBA.
 

Tnuoc Alucard

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EM cant be a part of this development,he will just be given another life line to keep sucking away from the team


Which is it?

Will he suck money away from the development to fund the team, or suck money away from the team to fund the development?

On one hand you want all profits generated at the CTC, that are NOT Senator games, (concerts, monster track rallies ) to be sucked away and counted as HRR to fund the operations of the Senators franchise ........... even though they're two separately registered businesses.

Does any other NHL team do this?

The answer is not, they don't.
 

topshelf15

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The Arena is a separate business.

The NHL Franchise is a separate business.

Under the terms of the CBA, non hockey events, held at the CTC, are not recorded as HRR, because they are not related to hockey.

The NHLPA is not entitled to a 50% of the cost of beer sold at a Disney on Ice event held at the CTC or any other NHL arena.

To suggest otherwise show a lack of understanding of how the Senator's franchise is operated, as per the economics of hockey and the CBA.
Again ,the arena with most successful teams and owners is an engine that supports the growth of the team ....To grow the team/market any and all revenues should have been used to facilitate more and sustainable revenue sources...In short... Team and market health... Should come far before any profit from anything remotely connected to the team SHOULD BE REALISED BY THE OWNER.....
 
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topshelf15

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May 5, 2009
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Which is it?

Will he suck money away from the development to fund the team, or suck money away from the team to fund the development?

On one hand you want all profits generated at the CTC, that are NOT Senator games, (concerts, monster track rallies ) to be sucked away and counted as HRR to fund the operations of the Senators franchise ........... even though they're two separately registered businesses.

Does any other NHL team do this?

The answer is not, they don't.
EM has flip flopped on owning the arena outright,to gaining a free one based on a 30 year lease....He isnt doing this to not realise profit at the expense of the team,s health
 

topshelf15

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EM ,will use the fast cash of a shiny new arena to fill his pockets even more...Then when the shine wears off he will start his BS brand of crying poor and cutting all over again
 

Micklebot

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Edit: It seems I merged some posts from before I created this thread and they took over the top spot; this was supposed to be a jumping point for this thread, oh well...

Since this keeps getting talked about in other threads where it doesn't belong, here's one where it's actually appropriate to discuss it in.

Some references that could be pertinent.

Forbes Valuations
Current: Ottawa Senators on the Forbes The Business of Hockey List
Historical: Wayback Machine

TV deals:

NHL, Rogers announce landmark 12-year deal
Rogers Canadian national deal: 5.3 Bil CAD, ~14 mil per year to each year 2014/15 to 2026/27

NHL, NBC sign record-setting 10-year TV deal
NBC US national deal, 2 Bil USD, ~6.5 mil USD to each team per year, 2010/11 to 2020/21

WOW! Ottawa Senators TV deal worth up to $400M
TSN Sens Regional deal, 400 mil CAD, ~33.3 mil CAD per year. 2014/15 to 2026/27


Yearly Average Rates | OFX
End of year average ROE

31 Dec 20100.970701
31 Dec 20111.011464
31 Dec 20121.00023
31 Dec 20130.971164
31 Dec 20140.905912
31 Dec 20150.782992
31 Dec 20160.755107
31 Dec 20170.771282
31 Dec 20180.771588
03 Feb 20190.752831
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
 
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topshelf15

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May 5, 2009
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Since this keeps getting talked about in other threads where it doesn't belong, here's one where it's actually appropriate to discuss it in.

Some references that could be pertinent.

Forbes Valuations
Current: Ottawa Senators on the Forbes The Business of Hockey List
Historical: Wayback Machine

TV deals:

NHL, Rogers announce landmark 12-year deal
Rogers Canadian national deal: 5.3 Bil CAD, ~14 mil per year to each year 2014/15 to 2026/27

NHL, NBC sign record-setting 10-year TV deal
NBC US national deal, 2 Bil USD, ~6.5 mil USD to each team per year, 2010/11 to 2020/21

WOW! Ottawa Senators TV deal worth up to $400M
TSN Sens Regional deal, 400 mil CAD, ~33.3 mil CAD per year. 2014/15 to 2026/27


Yearly Average Rates | OFX
End of year average ROE

31 Dec 20100.970701
31 Dec 20111.011464
31 Dec 20121.00023
31 Dec 20130.971164
31 Dec 20140.905912
31 Dec 20150.782992
31 Dec 20160.755107
31 Dec 20170.771282
31 Dec 20180.771588
03 Feb 20190.752831
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Why the arguement about the fans and the team losing millions hold little to no value
 

Sensung

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Oct 3, 2017
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No one is suggesting non-hockey stuff should count towards HRR. The CBA clearly defines what counts as HRR. The NHL and NHLPA force Melnyk to account for every penny of HRR.

The business structure that Melnyk sets for his business and how he chooses to account for his businesses is between Melnyk and CRA. Melnyk’s profit/loss statement for any of his business operations or the sum of his business operations has nothing to do with the NHL or the NHLPA.

What people are suggesting is that the losses Melnyk cites for the franchise are meaningless, as his other business ventures in Ottawa would fail without the Sens. Additionally, the operations as a whole are profitable.

So YES, Melnyk should spend profits from the CTC to fund the “losses” on the Sens. Multiple businesses world wide operate on this basis. The bottom line matters and claims of losses are irrelevant.
 

topshelf15

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May 5, 2009
27,993
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No one is suggesting non-hockey stuff should count towards HRR. The CBA clearly defines what counts as HRR. The NHL and NHLPA force Melnyk to account for every penny of HRR.

The business structure that Melnyk sets for his business and how he chooses to account for his businesses is between Melnyk and CRA. Melnyk’s profit/loss statement for any of his business operations or the sum of his business operations has nothing to do with the NHL or the NHLPA.

What people are suggesting is that the losses Melnyk cites for the franchise are meaningless, as his other business ventures in Ottawa would fail without the Sens. Additionally, thee operations as a whole are profitable.

So YES, Melnyk should spend profits from the CTC to fund the “losses” on the Sens. Multiple businesses world wide operate on this basis. The bottom line matters and claims of losses are irrelevant.
Pretty much,instead of crying poor when you are stuffing money into your pockets from the arena...How about you dont take a paycheck ,until you get the team humming and able to stand on its own
 
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coladin

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Sep 18, 2009
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No one is suggesting non-hockey stuff should count towards HRR. The CBA clearly defines what counts as HRR. The NHL and NHLPA force Melnyk to account for every penny of HRR.

The business structure that Melnyk sets for his business and how he chooses to account for his businesses is between Melnyk and CRA. Melnyk’s profit/loss statement for any of his business operations or the sum of his business operations has nothing to do with the NHL or the NHLPA.

What people are suggesting is that the losses Melnyk cites for the franchise are meaningless, as his other business ventures in Ottawa would fail without the Sens. Additionally, the operations as a whole are profitable.

So YES, Melnyk should spend profits from the CTC to fund the “losses” on the Sens. Multiple businesses world wide operate on this basis. The bottom line matters and claims of losses are irrelevant.
Other people suggesting that the CTC "profits" do not cover up the losses on the hockey club. No one knows for sure, but judging by the empty arena this year, it doesn't take much for one to believe that the losses this season will be unprecedented.
 

Ice-Tray

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Jan 31, 2006
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Victoria
Open books for NHL teams would be pretty amazing for these discussions.

Speculation is fun until we remember that we don’t actually have any solid numbers to work with.

Boo :(
 

coladin

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Sep 18, 2009
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Also seeing as Iam in the right thread,let me pose the question to you guys here....Does the CTC make a profit???And was the CTC not purpose built for the hockey team??
I don't know. I would think it does. But I don't know how much debt servicing is laid on the arena, or how renovations that have been happening are paid for, or infrastructure/ upgrades and maintenance are paid for.

The CTC was purpose built for the hockey team, not sure why you need clarification for that, or what your point is.
 

topshelf15

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May 5, 2009
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I don't know. I would think it does. But I don't know how much debt servicing is laid on the arena, or how renovations that have been happening are paid for, or infrastructure/ upgrades and maintenance are paid for.

The CTC was purpose built for the hockey team, not sure why you need clarification for that, or what your point is.
Meh it was more directing traffic with a certain poster
 

Micklebot

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Apr 27, 2010
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Open books for NHL teams would be pretty amazing for these discussions.

Speculation is fun until we remember that we don’t actually have any solid numbers to work with.

Boo :(

It would be. Arizona was forced into due to bankruptcy proceedings a while back and gives some insight into what it would look like:

main-qimg-b638a5007cc8a49a2b2aaa73cfcd6fee-c


A bit dated, but gives an idea as to what revenue streams and expenses exist for the clubs.
 

Ice-Tray

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Jan 31, 2006
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Victoria
It would be. Arizona was forced into due to bankruptcy proceedings a while back and gives some insight into what it would look like:

main-qimg-b638a5007cc8a49a2b2aaa73cfcd6fee-c


A bit dated, but gives an idea as to what revenue streams and expenses exist for the clubs.

That really would as a whole new element for the more numbers minded fans around the league.

You’d have drafting, development, trades, and accounting!

I wonder if there was a way to monetize it.
 

coladin

Registered User
Sep 18, 2009
11,781
4,476
It would be. Arizona was forced into due to bankruptcy proceedings a while back and gives some insight into what it would look like:

main-qimg-b638a5007cc8a49a2b2aaa73cfcd6fee-c


A bit dated, but gives an idea as to what revenue streams and expenses exist for the clubs.
Thanks for this, an incredible 23M of revenue from the NHL. In today's mugh higher revenue sharing based on much higher revenues, one has to think Melnyk might be getting 13M himself this season.
 

Micklebot

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Apr 27, 2010
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That really would as a whole new element for the more numbers minded fans around the league.

You’d have drafting, development, trades, and accounting!

I wonder if there was a way to monetize it.
It would potentially undermine owners attempts to get gov't to subsidize new arenas, particularly in the more profitable markets.
 
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Micklebot

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Thanks for this, an incredible 23M of revenue from the NHL. In today's mugh higher revenue sharing based on much higher revenues, one has to think Melnyk might be getting 13M himself this season.

The revenue sharing program is based of a % of total league HRR, 0.06055% to be exact. using 5 bil as the expected HRR this year, that would mean a pool of about 300 mil to be split across the bottom 21 teams. A committee decides the way that pool is divide up. If things are as bad as they appear this year, I suspect he'll get more than 13 mil USD.
 
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coladin

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Sep 18, 2009
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The revenue sharing program is based of a % of total league HRR, 0.06055% to be exact. using 5 bil as the expected HRR this year, that would mean a pool of about 300 mil to be split across the bottom 21 teams. A committee decides the way that pool is divide up. If things are as bad as they appear this year, I suspect he'll get more than 13 mil USD.
Yeah, good point, could be 20M , easy. I wonder how many teams are getting money? Probably Vancouver, Calgary, Ottawa in Canada. Then Anaheim, Carolina, NYI, Arizona, Florida, CBJ, Devils.
 

Micklebot

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Apr 27, 2010
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Yeah, good point, could be 20M , easy. I wonder how many teams are getting money? Probably Vancouver, Calgary, Ottawa in Canada. Then Anaheim, Carolina, NYI, Arizona, Florida, CBJ, Devils.

With the new CBA, they only differentiate between contributing clubs and recipient clubs. The former is defined as the top 10 revenue generating teams. The latter is left undefined.

Ken Campbell had an article when the Flames fell out of the top 10 in revenue, and how they would likely receive 2-12 mil depending on where they finished.


King’s portrayal of Flames as financial bottom-feeder misleading, disingenuous - TheHockeyNews

Teams receive revenue sharing if they qualify for it under the terms of the collective bargaining agreement. One NHL executive said that, generally speaking, the way NHL revenue sharing works is that the teams that finish in the top 10 in revenues share some of those revenues with the teams that finish from 11 through 31. This isn’t always the case, but it appears to be a general rule. He said the Flames will not have finished in the top 10 in 2016-17 and are not in the bottom 10 either. That means they will receive somewhere in the neighbourhood of $1 million-$2 million at the upper end and $10 million-$12 million if they are down around 20.

We're definitely in the bottom 10, so we're likely getting 12+
 

Ice-Tray

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It would potentially undermine owners attempts to get gov't to subsidize new arenas, particularly in the more profitable markets.

It would definitly never happen for a number of reasons, but it would be nice to have a clear picture though.
 

Spartachat

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Aug 2, 2016
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It would be. Arizona was forced into due to bankruptcy proceedings a while back and gives some insight into what it would look like:

main-qimg-b638a5007cc8a49a2b2aaa73cfcd6fee-c


A bit dated, but gives an idea as to what revenue streams and expenses exist for the clubs.

Ticket revenue is almost the same as revenue sharing. LOL Only 4.4 million for broadcast revenue. The Sens get like 40 million. The Yotes should get first dibs on any relocation!
 
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JD1

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Sep 12, 2005
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Ticket revenue is almost the same as revenue sharing. LOL Only 4.4 million for broadcast revenue. The Sens get like 40 million. The Yotes should get first dibs on any relocation!

those numbers are from 2009. idk what our tv revenues were before the big rogers deal and our tsn deal but they were peanuts compared to our current numbers
 

Micklebot

Moderator
Apr 27, 2010
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those numbers are from 2009. idk what our tv revenues were before the big rogers deal and our tsn deal but they were peanuts compared to our current numbers

Before the rogers deal we got 125k per game, and about 55 games a year appear on the regional deal. At that time, the National deals weren't nearly as lucrative either.
 
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