Speculation: Sens finances discussions

Discussion in 'Ottawa Senators' started by topshelf15, Feb 4, 2019.

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  1. topshelf15

    topshelf15 Registered User

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    Also seeing as Iam in the right thread,let me pose the question to you guys here....Does the CTC make a profit???And was the CTC not purpose built for the hockey team??
     
  2. Tnuoc Alucard

    Tnuoc Alucard There's more than 1 side to any story or issue.

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    The Arena is a separate business.

    The NHL Franchise is a separate business.

    Under the terms of the CBA, non hockey events, held at the CTC, are not recorded as HRR, because they are not related to hockey.

    The NHLPA is not entitled to a 50% of the cost of beer sold at a Disney on Ice event held at the CTC or any other NHL arena.

    To suggest otherwise show a lack of understanding of how the Senator's franchise is operated, as per the economics of hockey and the CBA.
     
  3. Tnuoc Alucard

    Tnuoc Alucard There's more than 1 side to any story or issue.

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    Which is it?

    Will he suck money away from the development to fund the team, or suck money away from the team to fund the development?

    On one hand you want all profits generated at the CTC, that are NOT Senator games, (concerts, monster track rallies ) to be sucked away and counted as HRR to fund the operations of the Senators franchise ........... even though they're two separately registered businesses.

    Does any other NHL team do this?

    The answer is not, they don't.
     
  4. topshelf15

    topshelf15 Registered User

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    Again ,the arena with most successful teams and owners is an engine that supports the growth of the team ....To grow the team/market any and all revenues should have been used to facilitate more and sustainable revenue sources...In short... Team and market health... Should come far before any profit from anything remotely connected to the team SHOULD BE REALISED BY THE OWNER.....
     
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  5. topshelf15

    topshelf15 Registered User

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    EM has flip flopped on owning the arena outright,to gaining a free one based on a 30 year lease....He isnt doing this to not realise profit at the expense of the team,s health
     
  6. topshelf15

    topshelf15 Registered User

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    EM ,will use the fast cash of a shiny new arena to fill his pockets even more...Then when the shine wears off he will start his BS brand of crying poor and cutting all over again
     
  7. Micklebot

    Micklebot Moderator

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    Edit: It seems I merged some posts from before I created this thread and they took over the top spot; this was supposed to be a jumping point for this thread, oh well...

    Since this keeps getting talked about in other threads where it doesn't belong, here's one where it's actually appropriate to discuss it in.

    Some references that could be pertinent.

    Forbes Valuations
    Current: Ottawa Senators on the Forbes The Business of Hockey List
    Historical: Wayback Machine

    TV deals:

    NHL, Rogers announce landmark 12-year deal
    Rogers Canadian national deal: 5.3 Bil CAD, ~14 mil per year to each year 2014/15 to 2026/27

    NHL, NBC sign record-setting 10-year TV deal
    NBC US national deal, 2 Bil USD, ~6.5 mil USD to each team per year, 2010/11 to 2020/21

    WOW! Ottawa Senators TV deal worth up to $400M
    TSN Sens Regional deal, 400 mil CAD, ~33.3 mil CAD per year. 2014/15 to 2026/27


    Yearly Average Rates | OFX
    End of year average ROE

    31 Dec 20100.970701
    31 Dec 20111.011464
    31 Dec 20121.00023
    31 Dec 20130.971164
    31 Dec 20140.905912
    31 Dec 20150.782992
    31 Dec 20160.755107
    31 Dec 20170.771282
    31 Dec 20180.771588
    03 Feb 20190.752831
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2019
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  8. topshelf15

    topshelf15 Registered User

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    Why the arguement about the fans and the team losing millions hold little to no value
     
  9. Sensung

    Sensung Registered User

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    No one is suggesting non-hockey stuff should count towards HRR. The CBA clearly defines what counts as HRR. The NHL and NHLPA force Melnyk to account for every penny of HRR.

    The business structure that Melnyk sets for his business and how he chooses to account for his businesses is between Melnyk and CRA. Melnyk’s profit/loss statement for any of his business operations or the sum of his business operations has nothing to do with the NHL or the NHLPA.

    What people are suggesting is that the losses Melnyk cites for the franchise are meaningless, as his other business ventures in Ottawa would fail without the Sens. Additionally, the operations as a whole are profitable.

    So YES, Melnyk should spend profits from the CTC to fund the “losses” on the Sens. Multiple businesses world wide operate on this basis. The bottom line matters and claims of losses are irrelevant.
     
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  10. topshelf15

    topshelf15 Registered User

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    Pretty much,instead of crying poor when you are stuffing money into your pockets from the arena...How about you dont take a paycheck ,until you get the team humming and able to stand on its own
     
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  11. coladin

    coladin Registered User

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    Other people suggesting that the CTC "profits" do not cover up the losses on the hockey club. No one knows for sure, but judging by the empty arena this year, it doesn't take much for one to believe that the losses this season will be unprecedented.
     
  12. Ice-Tray

    Ice-Tray Registered User

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    Open books for NHL teams would be pretty amazing for these discussions.

    Speculation is fun until we remember that we don’t actually have any solid numbers to work with.

    Boo :(
     
  13. coladin

    coladin Registered User

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    I don't know. I would think it does. But I don't know how much debt servicing is laid on the arena, or how renovations that have been happening are paid for, or infrastructure/ upgrades and maintenance are paid for.

    The CTC was purpose built for the hockey team, not sure why you need clarification for that, or what your point is.
     
  14. topshelf15

    topshelf15 Registered User

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    Meh it was more directing traffic with a certain poster
     
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  15. Micklebot

    Micklebot Moderator

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    It would be. Arizona was forced into due to bankruptcy proceedings a while back and gives some insight into what it would look like:

    [​IMG]

    A bit dated, but gives an idea as to what revenue streams and expenses exist for the clubs.
     
  16. Ice-Tray

    Ice-Tray Registered User

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    That really would as a whole new element for the more numbers minded fans around the league.

    You’d have drafting, development, trades, and accounting!

    I wonder if there was a way to monetize it.
     
  17. coladin

    coladin Registered User

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    Thanks for this, an incredible 23M of revenue from the NHL. In today's mugh higher revenue sharing based on much higher revenues, one has to think Melnyk might be getting 13M himself this season.
     
  18. Micklebot

    Micklebot Moderator

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    It would potentially undermine owners attempts to get gov't to subsidize new arenas, particularly in the more profitable markets.
     
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  19. Micklebot

    Micklebot Moderator

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    The revenue sharing program is based of a % of total league HRR, 0.06055% to be exact. using 5 bil as the expected HRR this year, that would mean a pool of about 300 mil to be split across the bottom 21 teams. A committee decides the way that pool is divide up. If things are as bad as they appear this year, I suspect he'll get more than 13 mil USD.
     
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  20. coladin

    coladin Registered User

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    Yeah, good point, could be 20M , easy. I wonder how many teams are getting money? Probably Vancouver, Calgary, Ottawa in Canada. Then Anaheim, Carolina, NYI, Arizona, Florida, CBJ, Devils.
     
  21. Micklebot

    Micklebot Moderator

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    With the new CBA, they only differentiate between contributing clubs and recipient clubs. The former is defined as the top 10 revenue generating teams. The latter is left undefined.

    Ken Campbell had an article when the Flames fell out of the top 10 in revenue, and how they would likely receive 2-12 mil depending on where they finished.


    King’s portrayal of Flames as financial bottom-feeder misleading, disingenuous - TheHockeyNews

    We're definitely in the bottom 10, so we're likely getting 12+
     
  22. Ice-Tray

    Ice-Tray Registered User

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    It would definitly never happen for a number of reasons, but it would be nice to have a clear picture though.
     
  23. Spartachat

    Spartachat Disgruntled Melnyk Bot

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    Ticket revenue is almost the same as revenue sharing. LOL Only 4.4 million for broadcast revenue. The Sens get like 40 million. The Yotes should get first dibs on any relocation!
     
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  24. JD1

    JD1 Registered User

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    those numbers are from 2009. idk what our tv revenues were before the big rogers deal and our tsn deal but they were peanuts compared to our current numbers
     
  25. Micklebot

    Micklebot Moderator

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    Before the rogers deal we got 125k per game, and about 55 games a year appear on the regional deal. At that time, the National deals weren't nearly as lucrative either.
     
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