Confirmed with Link: Sens acquire Callahan + pick for Condon + pick

[JD1]

Except this is incorrect. Because Melnyk has taken money out of the team to pay for his other businesses. It happened when he bought the team. He didn't pay it all in cash, because he wanted to keep his liquid cash in Biovale stocks/other ventures because he thought they would appreciate in value faster than the carrying costs of the sens debt. That's why billionaires take on debt. Not because they can't pay it off, but because they believe that they can beat the interest rate investing the money somewhere else. They do it all the time.

But he lost that gamble. No problem for the first ten years when he was paying off the interest himself. But now he is broke, and the team revenue has to cover the interest, tanking the player budget.

Is some of the debt from operations that should be paid of by team revenues? Yes. How much, as you said, we don't know.

But it is clear the original debt was never paid down and it's pretty clear that Melnyk is not willing to pay it down out of his pocket since it's officially in the teams name now and everybody has forgotten where it came from. So now we have to rebuild while carrying 5-10 mil in interest on money Melnyk took out of the business to fund his other projects and YES, this is going to lead fans to wonder if we would have made the same moves, and be more competitive again sooner, if had we not had Melnyk's debt around our neck.

Like maybe we trade Condon for a player/coach type leader, maybe a local guy, who has already won the cup, that is signed for longer than a year and is really committed to the city/rebuild, and can help the youth find their way. It's not like adding 1-2 mid-level players are going to make the difference whether we are int he lottery next year. But maybe it makes the difference between this year being a character building experience for the rookies vs being completely miserable raking up loss after loss after loss.

Tell you what....I read pretty much everything there is to read about this organization and I've never seen a shred of evidence that supports the view that Melnyk uses money from the his ownership of the team to support other business ventures.

That type of statement is made on this board and repeated frequently but apart from reading it here I've never seen anything credible suggesting that to be true.

 

[BonkTastic]

Tell you what....I read pretty much everything there is to read about this organization and I've never seen a shred of evidence that supports the view that Melnyk uses money from the his ownership of the team to support other business ventures.

That type of statement is made on this board and repeated frequently but apart from reading it here I've never seen anything credible suggesting that to be true.

Well, I'm like 99% sure that he definitely engages in creative / "hollywood" accounting along all of the organizational assets (the arena, the hockey team, and formerly CapitalTickets before he got paid off to switch to Ticketmaster). There's almost definitely some book cooking going on there. It was the worst kept secret in-house when I was there YEARS ago.

As for his non-Senators-related stuff, I have no idea. I've never heard of anything, even within the org. I remember when he sold most of his stables / horses, that was probably divorce-related. I can't remember anything... Doesn't mean it never happened I suppose, anything is possible, but I agree that I can't remember hearing of it ever.

 

[Larionov]

Lol,this team...TB was in cap hell,and we bail them out for next to nothing...Like the Zaitsev deal ,we help a rival because our owner cant afford to run the team....

We found a team to take a $3 million a year minor league goalie off our hands without us having to retain salary or take a stinky contract in return. Are you kidding me? Start the car and go. Any team in the league takes that deal, regardless of how broke their owner may or may not be.

It's also worth noting that by the time we are ready to contend, the Bolts and Leafs windows will be closing. We are at a different stage than they are.

The good news is that this all comes to a head in a year anyway - either Melnyk keeps Chabot, or he sells the team to someone who can. Stubborn as he is, he's smart enough to know that his franchise value will take a massive hit if Chabot is allowed to take an offer sheet and the fans go into full riot mode, creditors start calling loans, league starts getting involved, etc.

 

[Micklebot]

You've "told me" where to find the answer..........but you can't seem to post the link.

The expansion fees, for both Las Vegas, and Seattle go to the owners, to do with as they see fit.

I've heard and read this from many sources, and have posted the links, and other posters have also heard/read this and agree with what I've said on this issue for a couple of years now.

For some reason you just can't seem to accept this, and claim to know where to find the definitive answer on this issue, but never seem to be able to post it.

I will accept what sport journalists have said, and the commentators on the local sports radio show that have discussed this issue a few time over the past few years ...... I think it's safe to say that if they were wrong, someone would have called in to correct the record, and I not read a retraction in any paper that I've read concerning expansion fees going directly to the owners.

So its all these sources, vs you, so you can insist you're correct, and ignore what I've posted, if you so choose ............... but with all I've read and heard, I'm pretty sure you're on an island by yourself.

"Expansion fees would be shared among owners, who would not have to share that money with players. That makes the admission of new franchises an attractive prospect to many existing teams."
NHL affirms it will get hefty fees from potential expansion teams


"While the NHL has been accused in the past of expanding to pad owner's pockets"
ESPN.com: NHL - NHL franchise fees: Is price right?



"Even better, at least from the owners’ perspective, is that the expansion fees won’t count as hockey-related revenue, which means it wouldn’t be shared with the players in the form of an increased salary cap. All of that money would essentially go directly into the owners’ pockets"
The Pros and Cons of NHL Expansion

Uh huh.

Like I said, chose your sources for their credibility on the subject, not for whether they fit your narrative.

I offered one from Forbes, in an article discussing revenues for teams. They have a background in financial matters along with a strong reputation wrt that subject and are specifically discussing where revenue goes in the article.

Our income statements include revenue team owners get from non-NHL events at their arena, but do not include the expansion fee from the Knights that was divvied out to the other 30 teams in the league

But seeing as you've ignored that one, here's one from the Canadian press where they relay what Bettman said instead of the quotes you used which are the writers thoughts:

The NHL hasn't decided how many clubs it might add, and it doesn't anticipate expansion before the 2017-18 season, Deputy Commissioner Bill Daly said. Bettman indicated that an expansion fee would be at least $500 million, to be distributed among the existing clubs.

Heck, the last quote you used even say "essentially", as in technically not, which is the point I've been making; if you're going to be pedantic on cost savings being for the team not the owner, be prepared to be called out when you try to twist other comments like where expansion fees go. You can't have it both ways.

 

[Sens]

We found a team to take a $3 million a year minor league goalie off our hands without us having to retain salary or take a stinky contract in return. Are you kidding me? Start the car and go. Any team in the league takes that deal, regardless of how broke their owner may or may not be.

It's also worth noting that by the time we are ready to contend, the Bolts and Leafs windows will be closing. We are at a different stage than they are.

The good news is that this all comes to a head in a year anyway - either Melnyk keeps Chabot, or he sells the team to someone who can. Stubborn as he is, he's smart enough to know that his franchise value will take a massive hit if Chabot is allowed to take an offer sheet and the fans go into full riot mode, creditors start calling loans, league starts getting involved, etc.

I’d expect the Chabot hit pieces to begin popping up by the end of the year by big Bruce to set the narrative for a Chabot move by the draft

 

[Micklebot]

Well, I'm like 99% sure that he definitely engages in creative / "hollywood" accounting along all of the organizational assets (the arena, the hockey team, and formerly CapitalTickets before he got paid off to switch to Ticketmaster). There's almost definitely some book cooking going on there. It was the worst kept secret in-house when I was there YEARS ago.

As for his non-Senators-related stuff, I have no idea. I've never heard of anything, even within the org. I remember when he sold most of his stables / horses, that was probably divorce-related. I can't remember anything... Doesn't mean it never happened I suppose, anything is possible, but I agree that I can't remember hearing of it ever.

I can't imagine Melnyk directly taking money out of the team to prop up other business ventures. but the team, and every other one is guaranteed going to manipulate the numbers to their benefit.

Paul Beeston, former Vice President of the Toronto Blue Jays, was once quoted saying, “Anyone who quotes baseball profits is missing the point. Under generally accepted accounting principles, I can turn a $4 million profit into a $2 million loss and I could get every national accounting firm to agree with me.”
A common technique for both is to “pay yourself first.” Simply put, the owners will pay themselves a salary or get paid in fees by the team itself, which is an expense on the team’s financials, thus reducing net income. This idea could also apply by using the team’s money to purchase services from another company that is owned by the same ownership group.

source

Now, is paying one company for services for another both owned by the same person funneling money out of the team? Idk, nor do I know if he is specifically doing so. There's obviously a relation between the team and the arena that are doing so, as you would expect, but to a degree that it would be considered shady?

 

[The Lewler]

I’d expect the Chabot hit pieces to begin popping up by the end of the year by big Bruce to set the narrative for a Chabot move by the draft

100 %.

If it's going that route, it will start with the "The Sens have made what they feel is a fair offer and the ball is in Chabot's court", followed by "something something, still far apart, Sens now looking at bridge deal".

 

[thinkwild]

I cant say ive read anything about Melnyk using Sens debt for other business purposes either. But then we don’t have a media that I can assume would have looked into that.

Exactly why is this team in so much debt though? Melnyk bought this team knowing the issue was that the previous owner let debt get out of hand and lost control. But it seemed almost immediately the debt was back to the level of the franchise value. And it is has since doubled, saved only by a franchise value that is expected to have tripled or more.

But why so much debt? This is all an accumulation of operational losses over the years? I would expect owners to leverage their teams to use debt. But is any of that on the Sens books at all? I’ve never heard anything about it. But I don’t have the confidence to say im sure we would have were it true.

Expansion fees as non HRR arent expected to be put towards the team, nor shared as salaries with the players. On the other hand it has been considered a payment for the loss of future HRR due to the dilution of the revenue sharing pool percentage by adding a new team.

 

[JungleBeat]

We found a team to take a $3 million a year minor league goalie off our hands without us having to retain salary or take a stinky contract in return. Are you kidding me? Start the car and go. Any team in the league takes that deal, regardless of how broke their owner may or may not be.

Don’t think so. This deal only benefits Melnyk’s wallet.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

You are taking literally what sports journalists have said in shorthand.

The money doesn't go directly into a random owners offshore account. It goes to the teams as a non-HRR payment, after which owners can do with as they wish.

Thank you, this is what I've been saying, on this topic, for a few years now. "The money is the owners, to do with as they please" ....... I've reiterated this exact phrase quite a few times.

Yes, I understand journalist shorthand quite well, and have never suggested the owner(s) share of the expansion fee is squirreled away somewhere that the IRS or CRA can't get at it.

 

[Micklebot]

Thank you, this is what I've been saying, on this topic, for a few years now. "The money is the owners, to do with as they please" ....... I've reiterated this exact phrase quite a few times.

Yes, I understand journalist shorthand quite well, and have never suggested the owner(s) share of the expansion fee is squirreled away somewhere that the IRS or CRA can't get at it.

So thats why when i said it goes to the Org, in the sens case SSE, but just isn't considered HRR you responded with:

expansion fees go directly to the Owners, and not the the franchise, such as SS&E in Ottawa's case

and then searched for whatever media quotes you could find and bolded the word owner?

Yeah, your story sure checks out...

And when you said

Yes the owners can transfer the money into the business he he or she so chooses, but they are not obligated to do so.

that was shorthand for leave the money where it is?

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Dream job you say?

 

[JD1]

Well, I'm like 99% sure that he definitely engages in creative / "hollywood" accounting along all of the organizational assets (the arena, the hockey team, and formerly CapitalTickets before he got paid off to switch to Ticketmaster). There's almost definitely some book cooking going on there. It was the worst kept secret in-house when I was there YEARS ago.

As for his non-Senators-related stuff, I have no idea. I've never heard of anything, even within the org. I remember when he sold most of his stables / horses, that was probably divorce-related. I can't remember anything... Doesn't mean it never happened I suppose, anything is possible, but I agree that I can't remember hearing of it ever.

There's a difference between creative accounting in related companies a, b ,c ,d and e that are inside a parent holding company f and pushing money between completely unrelated entities.

 

[JD1]

Uh huh.

Like I said, chose your sources for their credibility on the subject, not for whether they fit your narrative.

I offered one from Forbes, in an article discussing revenues for teams. They have a background in financial matters along with a strong reputation wrt that subject and are specifically discussing where revenue goes in the article.



But seeing as you've ignored that one, here's one from the Canadian press where they relay what Bettman said instead of the quotes you used which are the writers thoughts:



Heck, the last quote you used even say "essentially", as in technically not, which is the point I've been making; if you're going to be pedantic on cost savings being for the team not the owner, be prepared to be called out when you try to twist other comments like where expansion fees go. You can't have it both ways.

Speaking of having it both ways...when I first started bringing up Forbes data to counter various viewpoints here....you were on me hard about Forbes doing your damndest to discount their material. It's kinda comical seeing this coming from you.

 

[JD1]

I can't imagine Melnyk directly taking money out of the team to prop up other business ventures. but the team, and every other one is guaranteed going to manipulate the numbers to their benefit.

source

Now, is paying one company for services for another both owned by the same person funneling money out of the team? Idk, nor do I know if he is specifically doing so. There's obviously a relation between the team and the arena that are doing so, as you would expect, but to a degree that it would be considered shady?

Ok, so you don't know if he is funneling money out of his Sens holdings. @BonkTastic worked there, he was also a mod, and he doesn't know either.

Here's a little suggestion for you....how about we start deleting this kind of content given the lack of credible sources that can substantiate it being true.

As I've said here before....there is plenty of material to work with to criticize this organization so we shouldn't need to make stuff up

 

[Micklebot]

Speaking of having it both ways...when I first started bringing up Forbes data to counter various viewpoints here....you were on me hard about Forbes doing your damndest to discount their material. It's kinda comical seeing this coming from you.

I said there numbers are estimates and not in themself proof. I never discounted them in term of being a subj matter expert. I called their numbers what they were, an educated guess.

I stand by that.

 

[Larionov]

I’d expect the Chabot hit pieces to begin popping up by the end of the year by big Bruce to set the narrative for a Chabot move by the draft

I'd be willing to make a fair sized wager that this doesn't happen.

Don't misunderstand - I am no Melnyk apologist. I hate how things have gone around here in the last few years, and every time I think about Mark Stone in a Vegas jersey my blood pressure rises 20 points. It goes up another 20 when I think about a franchise icon like Alfie sitting at home because he just can't stomach the owner. I would like him to sell, preferably this morning. Having said all that, he has set a narrative for the franchise now that he either sticks to, or he loses the team. (I actually believe that he wants to win - he just has no clue how and can't control his impulses.) My bet is that he either scrapes together the cash for a Chabot contract, or swallows his pride and finally sells.

 

[JD1]

I'd be willing to make a fair sized wager that this doesn't happen.

Don't misunderstand - I am no Melnyk apologist. I hate how things have gone around here in the last few years, and every time I think about Mark Stone in a Vegas jersey my blood pressure rises 20 points. It goes up another 20 when I think about a franchise icon like Alfie sitting at home because he just can't stomach the owner. I would like him to sell, preferably this morning. Having said all that, he has set a narrative for the franchise now that he either sticks to, or he loses the team. (I actually believe that he wants to win - he just has no clue how and can't control his impulses.) My bet is that he either scrapes together the cash for a Chabot contract, or swallows his pride and finally sells.

Ya I agree with most of this

He set the FYOUS narrative. I am not very caught up the recent transactions and our actual spend. We have a young team full of prospects. Itd be virtually impossible to dress the young roster we have without more Ryan like contracts to get us to a legit 65M situation. I like what we've done. I like that there is some veteran insulation guys like Hainsey and Ennis and that they didn't come with big term and big dollars.

Spending 45 and having a cap hit of 65 or whatever. That is money that stays inside the Corp that can be used when we have to pay chabot, tkachuk etc. There is no sense whatsoever in blowing that cash on a non compete team.

So...I agree with you....he set the narrative so he either delivers on what he set or he is done here.

 

[Sens]

Ya I agree with most of this

He set the FYOUS narrative. I am not very caught up the recent transactions and our actual spend. We have a young team full of prospects. Itd be virtually impossible to dress the young roster we have without more Ryan like contracts to get us to a legit 65M situation. I like what we've done. I like that there is some veteran insulation guys like Hainsey and Ennis and that they didn't come with big term and big dollars.

Spending 45 and having a cap hit of 65 or whatever. That is money that stays inside the Corp that can be used when we have to pay chabot, tkachuk etc. There is no sense whatsoever in blowing that cash on a non compete team.

So...I agree with you....he set the narrative so he either delivers on what he set or he is done here.

The Sens have multiple executive positions opened

Why are they not being filled?

 

[JD1]

The Sens have multiple executive positions opened

Why are they not being filled?

I don't have a clue what positions they have open apart from the poho

But what does that have to do with my post?

 

[Sens]

I don't have a clue what positions they have open apart from the poho

But what does that have to do with my post?

Talking about them being below the cap floor as a means to spend in the future

But they can’t even fill these positions



I think people are delusional if they think the Sens are trying to save money to spend in the future

The Sens are the dollar store of the nhl

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

The Sens have multiple executive positions opened

Why are they not being filled?

I think at this point every executive position is vacant other than Melnyk, Dorion and Mactavish.

Would have been nice to see them invest some of those savings in coaching and exec roles.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

I think at this point every executive position is vacant other than Melnyk, Dorion and Mactavish.

There are a lot more position open now for all kinds of jobs in the office.

Have a look at your local listings.

Why not even apply for some and report back on if EM is working as the HR person now too

 

[Upgrayedd]

Talking about them being below the cap floor as a means to spend in the future

But they can’t even fill these positions



I think people are delusional if they think the Sens are trying to save money to spend in the future

The Sens are the dollar store of the nhl

Imagine still holding on to the most recent incarnation of that claim as hope lol, literal definition of insanity!

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

There are a lot more position open now for all kinds of jobs in the office.

Have a look at your local listings.

Why not even apply for some and report back on if EM is working the HR person now too

C'mon now, you know I'd never work for Melnyk