News Article: Senators won’t be competitive until they prioritize talent over finances

[TeamRenzo]

Are you trying to argue that signing Stone isnt a good play for the long term? Just trying to wrap my head around what your argument is. I want them to spend money on making the team better, they are spending 13 million below the cap floor I do want them to spend money to be good in the future yes. You know instead of when they eat salary to get real assets not dump other salary back not hard to understand. I have a very good concept of where this team is thanks. They just finished dead last with Stone, Duchene, Dzingel on the team for most of the year. Why do you think they will be so much better with only Stone? .... They are going to be the worst team in hockey this year with or without him. Atleast if he was here he could show them good work habits, lead by example and take the hard matchups.

Dude, you sound like you are becoming unhinged, you are all over the place.

Why would Stone want to sign a long term extension to stay with a team that is going to be awful for the foreseeable future?

My point (not argument) is that this team is not going to be a playoff team for several years and our fate won't change with a few mediocre pieces. With that being understood, it only makes sense to remove as much cost as possible. I don't see how a reasonable person isn't able to grasp this concept.

 

[bert]

Dude, you sound like you are becoming unhinged, you are all over the place.

Why would Stone want to sign a long term extension to stay with a team that is going to be awful for the foreseeable future?

My point (not argument) is that this team is not going to be a playoff team for several years and our fate won't change with a few mediocre pieces. With that being understood, it only makes sense to remove as much cost as possible. I don't see how a reasonable person isn't able to grasp this concept.

Stone was a 6th round pick. If they had traded that pick to save money they never would have him.

A reasonable person would understand that it wasnt a cost that needed to be removed for any purpose other than the owner wanting to make more money at the expense of the team getting better. You are the one that cant grasp the concept. There are hundreds of posters in this thread that grasp it. Tim Mcaliffe can grasp the concept. Why cant you?

 

[TeamRenzo]

Yes because when a team is **** its the good players fault.

How did you get that from my post?

I love MS as a player and would love to see him lift the cup, he stands very little chance of doing so in Ottawa for quite a few years. Signing long term with VGK is a good move for his career and I am happy for him.

MS playing on our team next year does nothing to improve our team in the standings.

 

[TeamRenzo]

Stone was a 6th round pick. If they had traded that pick to save money they never would have him.

A reasonable person would understand that it wasnt a cost that needed to be removed for any purpose other than the owner wanting to make more money at the expense of the team getting better. You are the one that cant grasp the concept. There are hundreds of posters in this thread that grasp it. Tim Mcaliffe can grasp the concept. Why cant you?

What was Stone offered from Ottawa? Why would Stone stay with Ottawa?

 

[bert]

What was Stone offered from Ottawa? Why would Stone stay with Ottawa?

Done with this argument you dont understand the sens are giving away assets for money despite being 14 million below the cap. Once you can grasp this then come back.

Mark Stone wanted to stay in Ottawa with solid ownership commited to winning. He left because Melnyk is doing exactly what everyone around here is pissed off about its a direct correlation.

 

[TeamRenzo]

Done with this argument you dont understand the sens are giving away assets for money despite being 14 million below the cap. Once you can grasp this then come back.

Mark Stone wanted to stay in Ottawa with solid ownership commited to winning. He left because Melnyk is doing exactly what everyone around here is pissed off about its a direct correlation.

Perhaps considering other points of view and not thinking this is an argument will help you gain piece of mind.

 

[stempniaksen]

Just piggybacking off this thread to post Greg Wyshynski's article (we made ESPN!)

If mods feel like this is better served as it's own thread or somewhere else feel free to move it.

https://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/27300549/the-wysh-list-senators-violating-spirit-cba

Same general idea as Warren's article. This is now the 3rd or 4th article in the MSM that has been on this topic since the Callahan trade. That's because there's nothing normal about this. Saving money in a rebuilding/down year is fine, but this team is taking it to the next level.

I've been keeping a close eye on capfriendly and if the team does what I think they will with White (strong arm him into a 1 or 2 year deal that pays out < $2 million next season this team will be spending $20+ million less than their closest competitor (closer to $23 million, but nothing is set in stone obviously).

 

[BonkTastic]

Some yes definitely, all? Naw, that so tiresome.

Yeah... that's why I specifically went out of my way to use the word "some" in the post you quoted.

 

[Micklebot]

Yeah... that's why I specifically went out of my way to use the word "some" in the post you quoted.

I think he meant some transactions are due criticism, not all, as opposed to some fans not all.

The premise being that some posters criticize everything warranted or not, which is somewhat hyperbolic.

 

[BatherSeason]

I think he meant some transactions are due criticism, not all, as opposed to some fans not all.

The premise being that some posters criticize everything warranted or not, which is somewhat hyperbolic.

Have there been any moves that don't fit the criteria to be criticized?

 

[Micklebot]

Have there been any moves that don't fit the criteria to be criticized?

That's a pretty subjective question to answer.

If I think Zaitsev is great, I probably don't think trading Ceci for him is something that should be criticized.

Personally, I haven't seen to many moves of later that weren't at least debatable in terms of whether criticism was valid. Landing on either side of the debate being defensible. Some people might like the Ennis signing because maybe we can trade him at the deadline and get some free assets, others might dislike it because it blocks a prospect. I imagine there are a few posters who have been critical of all the moves, there are some that have been split, and some that have approved of all moves. That said, the overall tone of the board has been fairly negative, so even when a move is mostly seen as positive (like the Smith trade) there's always the additional commentary about an extra pick thrown in or financial implications which becomes all some posters will focus on. So even if the consensus is positive around a move, the perception of the consensus might not be because of the tone of the comments focusing of the overall picture of the org and not the individual transaction.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

Dude, you sound like you are becoming unhinged, you are all over the place.

Why would Stone want to sign a long term extension to stay with a team that is going to be awful for the foreseeable future?

My point (not argument) is that this team is not going to be a playoff team for several years and our fate won't change with a few mediocre pieces. With that being understood, it only makes sense to remove as much cost as possible. I don't see how a reasonable person isn't able to grasp this concept.

The problem isn't so much that the team is making efforts to save money, it's that their efforts to save money are hindering any chance of building a successful team in the future. We're not accruing assets by "weaponizing cap space". We're not adding any elite talent to replace the many that we lost in our GMs trades. We're not investing said saved money into the front office to make sure good decisions are being made but instead letting the people who destroyed the team in the first place continue to run amok. We're not reinvesting in coaching but going with unsuccessful cast offs. We're not creating a good environment for prospects. In 2011 when we started a rebuild, we had Alfredsson, Spezza, Phillips and Gonchar stick around and mentor Silfverberg, Turris, Karlsson and Zibanejad. Do we have any anologues to those guys? No, certainly not. There are almost no proper mentors or veterans to support our young stars. Tkachuk and Chabot are going to be like teenage moms out there. Kids parenting kids. We are setting up all these draft picks to fail.

The team is CLEARLY showing that it is prioritizing saving cash above all else. That doesn't bode well for the future. They are not committed to building success.

EDIT: Another area we're NOT spending our savings on is a new downtown arena and that is an absolute embarrassment.

 

[2CHAINZ]

Have there been any moves that don't fit the criteria to be criticized?

The moves this off-season seriously are whatever but they could've been better in getting some actual value for helping teams in the division that needed help with cap relief given the fact that we had all the leverage.

If this team shed all this actual salary and you know spent even a little bit of money on things like scouting department, analytics department, front office, warm water, getting Instagram models to come to games, or even investing in a mix tape that probably won't work out. I think people would be a lot more receptive to being cheap and making money moves. But when a team is in a position such as the sens and sabotage their own ability to win trades by making teams pay signing bonuses and/or take salary it paints a pretty sad picture.

Anyways I understand we aren't going to spend 100 million like the leafs which is fine with me but when Melnyk is telling people we are going to spend in the future FYOUS! Why not spend a little now on things to help this rebuild go faster and smoother and build some confidence in management ? Why not spend on a president who can actually help this team rebuild competently ?

 

[Xspyrit]

This should be considered for the Nobel prize

 

[Sweatred]

The moves this off-season seriously are whatever but they could've been better in getting some actual value for helping teams in the division that needed help with cap relief given the fact that we had all the leverage.

If this team shed all this actual salary and you know spent even a little bit of money on things like scouting department, analytics department, front office, warm water, getting Instagram models to come to games, or even investing in a mix tape that probably won't work out. I think people would be a lot more receptive to being cheap and making money moves. But when a team is in a position such as the sens and sabotage their own ability to win trades by making teams pay signing bonuses and/or take salary it paints a pretty sad picture.

Anyways I understand we aren't going to spend 100 million like the leafs which is fine with me but when Melnyk is telling people we are going to spend in the future FYOUS! Why not spend a little now on things to help this rebuild go faster and smoother and build some confidence in management ? Why not spend on a president who can actually help this team rebuild competently ?

The one angle that rarely gets mentioned is - perhaps we are saving money to pay down debt to give EM a realistic chance of selling the franchise. That would be better then an extra pick or two

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

The one angle that rarely gets mentioned is - perhaps we are saving money to pay down debt to give EM a realistic chance of selling the franchise. That would be better then an extra pick or two

He hasn't done much of anything over the years to pay down the debt when the team made profits year after year. And paying off any debt won't make a difference to any buyer. Once it all shakes out, Melynk will get the same amount of money in his pocket either way.

The whole "Melynk is paying down the debt so we can sell the team!" is another false herring to get folks excited for nothing.

 

[BatherSeason]

Just piggybacking off this thread to post Greg Wyshynski's article (we made ESPN!)

If mods feel like this is better served as it's own thread or somewhere else feel free to move it.

https://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/27300549/the-wysh-list-senators-violating-spirit-cba

Same general idea as Warren's article. This is now the 3rd or 4th article in the MSM that has been on this topic since the Callahan trade. That's because there's nothing normal about this. Saving money in a rebuilding/down year is fine, but this team is taking it to the next level.

I've been keeping a close eye on capfriendly and if the team does what I think they will with White (strong arm him into a 1 or 2 year deal that pays out < $2 million next season this team will be spending $20+ million less than their closest competitor (closer to $23 million, but nothing is set in stone obviously).

https://www.tsn.ca/ltir-a-lingering-issue-in-cba-negotiations-1.1345265

Senators continue cutting costs to shockingly low levels

Meanwhile, TSN1200 making excuses for the team again this morning.

 

[2CHAINZ]

The one angle that rarely gets mentioned is - perhaps we are saving money to pay down debt to give EM a realistic chance of selling the franchise. That would be better then an extra pick or two

Of course if thats the case no one will care about the moves that have been made. However it seems unlikely that will happen at least anytime soon.

For me personally it's the standing in front of a microphone saying we are going to spend later then minimizing value in trades by forcing teams to eat salary/pay signing bonuses. Especially when this team is in dire need of front office staff and a president for starters. Like I said before if even a little bit of money and effort were being made in hiring scouts, president, analytics or whatever it would be tolerable. To spend below the cap floor and have a bare bones staff is just what it is sad and embarrassing.

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

The moves this off-season seriously are whatever but they could've been better in getting some actual value for helping teams in the division that needed help with cap relief given the fact that we had all the leverage.

If this team shed all this actual salary and you know spent even a little bit of money on things like scouting department, analytics department, front office, warm water, getting Instagram models to come to games, or even investing in a mix tape that probably won't work out. I think people would be a lot more receptive to being cheap and making money moves. But when a team is in a position such as the sens and sabotage their own ability to win trades by making teams pay signing bonuses and/or take salary it paints a pretty sad picture.

Anyways I understand we aren't going to spend 100 million like the leafs which is fine with me but when Melnyk is telling people we are going to spend in the future FYOUS! Why not spend a little now on things to help this rebuild go faster and smoother and build some confidence in management ? Why not spend on a president who can actually help this team rebuild competently ?

Won't be putting a lien on my house for this

 

[Sweatred]

Of course if thats the case no one will care about the moves that have been made. However it seems unlikely that will happen at least anytime soon.

For me personally it's the standing in front of a microphone saying we are going to spend later then minimizing value in trades by forcing teams to eat salary/pay signing bonuses. Especially when this team is in dire need of front office staff and a president for starters. Like I said before if even a little bit of money and effort were being made in hiring scouts, president, analytics or whatever it would be tolerable. To spend below the cap floor and have a bare bones staff is just what it is sad and embarrassing.

I look at is as most fans want two things.

1. Melnyk out
2. The first overall 2020 pick.

I think most of the cost saving moves support both in the short term. Would we really want to sell 3rd round picks for $2-3 million and delay #1?

The Senators clearly are not currently an attractive purchase for any billionaire.

 

[stempniaksen]

The Senators clearly are not currently an attractive purchase for any billionaire.

There have been confirmed offers, so I'm not sure how you can say that with a straight face.

Obviously the debt load is less than ideal, and tearing the team down like this could be a way to sell the team at "full value" (offsetting the high debt load with a lower than usual spending on players, hockey ops, exec staff, ect) but that's a far cry from not being an attractive purpose.

They are one of 31 "toys" for billionaires. The demand will always be there regardless of other external factors.

 

[BatherSeason]

The first overall 2020 pick.

Dorion gonna trade down and accumulate more draft picks to brag about so they can avoid paying a #1 overall pick down the line.

 

[Spartachat]

There have been confirmed offers, so I'm not sure how you can say that with a straight face.

Obviously the debt load is less than ideal, and tearing the team down like this could be a way to sell the team at "full value" (offsetting the high debt load with a lower than usual spending on players, hockey ops, exec staff, ect) but that's a far cry from not being an attractive purpose.

They are one of 31 "toys" for billionaires. The demand will always be there regardless of other external factors.

If there is another financial crisis like 2008, Melnyk may be forced to sell low due to lack of liquidity.

 

[Sweatred]

There have been confirmed offers, so I'm not sure how you can say that with a straight face.

Obviously the debt load is less than ideal, and tearing the team down like this could be a way to sell the team at "full value" (offsetting the high debt load with a lower than usual spending on players, hockey ops, exec staff, ect) but that's a far cry from not being an attractive purpose.

They are one of 31 "toys" for billionaires. The demand will always be there regardless of other external factors.

The offers are clearly below EM’s expectation or he would have accepted them. As the debt load drops it should make it easier for someone to offer something closer to his ask.

EM probably thinks he has tried selling tickets/playoffs etc and that didn’t successfully increase revenues. His current tear down strategy hopefully will.

 

[bert]

The one angle that rarely gets mentioned is - perhaps we are saving money to pay down debt to give EM a realistic chance of selling the franchise. That would be better then an extra pick or two

This is a good point if true. Id give up our first next year for nothing if it meant new ownership.