News Article: Senators Showdown: Patrick Lalime vs. Craig Anderson

[bert]

Next up we can have a poll of whether Brian Pothier or Karel Rachunek was more important to the franchise.

Rachunek all the way! haha

 

[umma gumma]

Of course there were many factors but the proof is in the results and the stats he wasnt good enough. It wasnt only on him, but due to the position he plays he gave away multiple series as his counterpart outplayed him. Not sure why you didnt quote my entire post that the specific part you isolated was put there to roll into the rest. I backed up my point, it doesnt really do that statement justice without including the entire explanation.

It was the only part of your post I took issue with. I agreed with the JM portion of it. There were too many games and too many skaters where the offense went impotent to put all of the losses on the goalie. Everyone on those teams earned those loses, its not down to two individuals. Its not like we were being outscored 7-6 and couldn't keep the Leafs off the board because of bad goaltending.

We couldn't score so too often that left Lalime in the position to have to play mistake free hockey, something he was never capable of and surely weighed on his psyche, knowing that the only goal he lets in could be the game.

No excuse for that game 7 though; that was atrocious.

 

[trentmccleary]

Craig Anderson, clearly and without hesitation. This question to me is like asking whether you'd prefer Hasek in Buffalo or Chris Osgood in Detroit.

Anderson and Lalime finished with the same playoff records in Ottawa. Except Lalime was backstopping a powerhouse team and Craig Anderson was helping a bubble team make the playoffs.

Anderson was facing 32 shots per 60 minutes, at a time when 2.58 goals were scored on average in the playoffs.
Lalime was facing 24 shots per 60 minutes, at a time when 2.33 goals were scored on average in the playoffs.

2.33 goals is very low in the middle of the deadpuck, trapping, clutch and grab era. More games were decided by one goal and you can almost imagine that .33 tacked on the end accounted for lots of empty netters in the last few minutes of a tight game. So it's important to understand the value of a goal against, when it means the opposition is automatically going to go into shutdown trap mode... while getting away with holding, obstruction, etc.

Lalime played in 7 playoff series with a line of: 41, 21-20, 1.77, 0.926, 5 so
Looks pretty good, until you realize that he was playing for a powerhouse in the lowest scoring era and he also did this:
Didn't give up the first goal = 17x
Gave up the 1st goal in the 1st period = 20x
Gave up the 1st goal after the 1st period = 4x

In shorthand, I'll write Lalime's record giving up the first goal as 41 GP, 17-20-4 (didn't, gave up 1st in 1st, gave up 1st after 1st)

Now let's isolate 02-Phi, 02-Tor and 03-NYI, 3 consecutive series played across two postseasons.

Overall = 41, 21-20, 1.77, 0.926, 5 so
02&NYI = 17, 11-6, 1.36, 0.947, 5 so
Other = 24, 10-14, 2.07, 0.909, 0 so

First goal against record (didn't, gave up 1st in 1st, gave up 1st after 1st):
Overall = 41, 17-20-4
02&NYI = 17, 11-4-2
Other = 6-16-2

In the 2004 series against Toronto, Lalime gave up the first goal in all 7 games. He also posted a sub .900 SV% in 4 of 7 games.

 

[NyQuil]

If they had put Andy in net instead of Hammond after the Hamburgler blew Game 1, I honestly believe we would have upset the Habs again.

 

[Wallet Inspector]

Sens win the Stanley Cup in 2003 and 2006 if they had prime Anderson those years(I know Lalime wasn't on the team in 06 but still).

 

[Laphroaig]

Sens win the Stanley Cup in 2003 and 2006 if they had prime Anderson those years(I know Lalime wasn't on the team in 06 but still).

You can't award a guy a Cup for games he never played.

 

[CanadianHockey]

I feel like people are overstating Anderson's consistency here. He clearly alternated between borderline Vezina calibre play and being a middling or even below average starter from one season to the next. Yes, Lalime had better teams, but he was the starter and got it done during the regular season consistently. Anderson was nearly usurped twice as a starter to Hammond and Condon, both career backups who had a flash in the pan season. If you go back to those years, Anderson was under the microscope by quite a few around here for soft goals and inconsistent play, and those backups were praised for bringing confidence back to the guys up front.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

I feel like people are overstating Anderson's consistency here. He clearly alternated between borderline Vezina calibre play and being a middling or even below average starter from one season to the next. Yes, Lalime had better teams, but he was the starter and got it done during the regular season consistently. Anderson was nearly usurped twice as a starter to Hammond and Condon, both career backups who had a flash in the pan season. If you go back to those years, Anderson was under the microscope by quite a few around here for soft goals and inconsistent play, and those backups were praised for bringing confidence back to the guys up front.

He had many injuries along the way. There really was no usurping, IMO.

 

[Satoru Gojo]

Besides 2012-2013 Anderson was never that good stat wise, that said he was facing the most shots against in the League most other years.

 

[JD1]

I don't think ottawa has ever had a real advantage as far as goaltending goes. It's just never been a strength

I'd generally lean to Anderson because of his franchise records but even with that, he had quite a few seasons where on average he just wasn't good enough

I think it's hard to also not consider during the Lalime era that the offence just never got it done. Think about how much better Lalime's stats would have needed to be to get it done. We had some awesome teams that just weren't able to get it done and far more than Lalime were to blame for that. I'll quote myself on something i said on here months back "tkachuk is the antidote for what ailed our team from 2000 to 2005"

Choosing between Lalime and Anderson is kind of like deciding which of the last two girls without a date to the prom you're going to ask.

 

[Neil Patrick Harris]

I feel like people are overstating Anderson's consistency here. He clearly alternated between borderline Vezina calibre play and being a middling or even below average starter from one season to the next. Yes, Lalime had better teams, but he was the starter and got it done during the regular season consistently. Anderson was nearly usurped twice as a starter to Hammond and Condon, both career backups who had a flash in the pan season. If you go back to those years, Anderson was under the microscope by quite a few around here for soft goals and inconsistent play, and those backups were praised for bringing confidence back to the guys up front.

How can you possibly count Hammond as a mark against Anderson's consistency? Hammond went on a historic, unsustainable run and was only put into that position because Anderson was injured. And, as I recall correctly, he promptly fell to pieces in the playoffs and it fell to Anderson to try and salvage the series - which he nearly did.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Yeah Hammond was awful in Games 1 and 2 against the Habs in 2015

 

[bert]

Sens win the Stanley Cup in 2003 and 2006 if they had prime Anderson those years(I know Lalime wasn't on the team in 06 but still).

And 2004 that might have actually been the best team

 

[bert]

I don't think ottawa has ever had a real advantage as far as goaltending goes. It's just never been a strength

I'd generally lean to Anderson because of his franchise records but even with that, he had quite a few seasons where on average he just wasn't good enough

I think it's hard to also not consider during the Lalime era that the offence just never got it done. Think about how much better Lalime's stats would have needed to be to get it done. We had some awesome teams that just weren't able to get it done and far more than Lalime were to blame for that. I'll quote myself on something i said on here months back "tkachuk is the antidote for what ailed our team from 2000 to 2005"

Choosing between Lalime and Anderson is kind of like deciding which of the last two girls without a date to the prom you're going to ask.

They were the highest scoring team in the NHL. Its really not close here.

Lalime and Jaques Martins were to blame. Some goes to Alfie he was no good in 2003 the year they should have won.

 

[JD1]

They were the highest scoring team in the NHL. Its really not close here.

Lalime and Jaques Martins were to blame. Some goes to Alfie he was no good in 2003 the year they should have won.

But they couldn't get it done in the playoffs when it mattered and that's the issue.

 

[bert]

But they couldn't get it done in the playoffs when it mattered and that's the issue.

Yup because Lalime couldnt make a save in 2003 against new Jersey in games 2 and 4 he had a sub 800 save percentage gifting jersey two games. In 2004 he was just no good. Obviously the team needed to score more in 2004, that had alot to do with the coaching. But he was still outplayed in all 7 games of that series against Belfour. That wouldnt have happened to Anderson.

In the 2004 season Spezza was 4th on the team in scoring while only dressing for 4 of the 7 playoff games. I specifically remember a game in Colorado who was considered the most talented team in the NHL where the sens walked into their barn and destroyed them. It was one of the few games they loaded up a line with two centermen Bonk Spezza Hossa were unstopable. It was a real breakout performance for Spezza as he was given real opportunity. Well in that playoff series the line wasnt put together once, they were shut out 3 times. Jaques Martins hatred for Spezza likely cost the sens the cup. That along with Lalime's choke job.

 

[CanadianHockey]

How can you possibly count Hammond as a mark against Anderson's consistency? Hammond went on a historic, unsustainable run and was only put into that position because Anderson was injured. And, as I recall correctly, he promptly fell to pieces in the playoffs and it fell to Anderson to try and salvage the series - which he nearly did.

Half that storyline was how terribly the team played in the first half. Anderson's struggles and inconsistency played into that. Injuries ended up hurting an already poor season, but from what I remember he was playing poorly while healthy that first half too. I agree, though, that it was hard for him to play his way back in when the hot hand stayed hot that long.

FWIW I give Andy the playoff edge over Lalime, and I certainly think he's one of the best goalies we've had. I just think some are glossing over his own inconsistent play.

 

[Beville]

Hasek
Anderson
Emery
Lalime

 

[h2]

This is not even a debate.

Anderson.

I will never forget Lalime's struggles vs the Leafs. Anderson has a rival victory on his resume vs MTL.

 

[umma gumma]

Amazing people remember Lalime's struggles but don't remember that the offense stunk. We were always one of the highest scoring teams in the regular season only to dry up in the playoffs. If posters want to claim the team had no confidence in Lalime these struggles began before Lalime was a Sen.

We averaged 1.5 GF against Buffalo in 1999, shut out once in 4 games with Tugnutt and Rhodes. In 2000 we averaged 1.6 GF and were shut out once in 6 games with Barrasshole in nets. Enter Lalime in 2001 and we averaged 0.75 GF (!!!!) and were shut out twice in 4 games. In 2002 against the Leafs we jumped to 2.2 and were shut out twice. Come to 2004 and we're back to averaging 1.5 and were shut out 3 times.

We have 4 different goalies in Rhodes, Tugnutt, Barasso and Lalime....and we averaged less than 2 goals a game with all of them. Common denominators being the coach and the core players.

No one is denying Lalime struggled at times, but the free pass the skaters are getting at the expense of one player is not right.

 

[topshelf15]

Andy all the way,Lalime was never a starter,he just looked like one on a stacked team

 

[umma gumma]

While obviously not in the same tier as the Belfours and Josephs, Lalime was no worse than Osgoode and we should have been able to do with Lalime what Detroit did with Osgoode. We were that deep. Osgood got run support though. I mean, his save % over the first three games in 98 was 0.835 with a GA of 4.3! He also gave up the first goal half way through the 1st in game 4.

I still take Andy.

 

[Sensung]

While obviously not in the same tier as the Belfours and Josephs, Lalime was no worse than Osgoode and we should have been able to do with Lalime what Detroit did with Osgoode. We were that deep. Osgood got run support though. I mean, his save % over the first three games in 98 was 0.835 with a GA of 4.3!

I still take Andy.

Coaching was a major hurdle. Jacques never adapted to the playoff rulebook and refused to use the nuclear deterrent he had in Chara with his turn the other cheek attitude.

 

[topshelf15]

While obviously not in the same tier as the Belfours and Josephs, Lalime was no worse than Osgoode and we should have been able to do with Lalime what Detroit did with Osgoode. We were that deep. Osgood got run support though. I mean, his save % over the first three games in 98 was 0.835 with a GA of 4.3!

I still take Andy.

We had a soft team up front,and couldnt get to the front of the net ...As Toronto played exactly the way we did against MTL ,bar the front door and punish anyone on the doorstep

 

[trentmccleary]

Sens win the Stanley Cup in 2003 and 2006 if they had prime Anderson those years(I know Lalime wasn't on the team in 06 but still).

Good call on 2006. Emery got diced up laterally by Buffalo, was terrible all series and especially in OT.

I feel like people are overstating Anderson's consistency here. He clearly alternated between borderline Vezina calibre play and being a middling or even below average starter from one season to the next. Yes, Lalime had better teams, but he was the starter and got it done during the regular season consistently. Anderson was nearly usurped twice as a starter to Hammond and Condon, both career backups who had a flash in the pan season. If you go back to those years, Anderson was under the microscope by quite a few around here for soft goals and inconsistent play, and those backups were praised for bringing confidence back to the guys up front.

From 2011-2017, Anderson posted a line of 293, 151-99-34, 2.59, 0.920, 24so. That's incredible for a bubble team that probably wouldn't have made the playoffs without him.
In his 3 worst seasons during that 6+ season stretch, he was better than Lalime's best 3 seasons of his career... and one of those happened in Pittsburgh.

2011-2017 Team Point Pace based on goalie record
Anderson = 97 points per 82 GP
Backups = 87
1999-2004 Team Point Pace based on goalie record
Lalime = 96
Backups = 105

For 6+ seasons, Anderson provided approximately the level of goaltending I would have expected out a CuJo in his prime.

Also, it's disgusting that Anderson had a better record considering the large disparity in team quality.

The top 4 D-men in Lalime's days were Redden, Chara, Phillips and York/Salo/Rachunek.
During Anderson's tenure, it was Karlsson, Methot and a largely awful rotation of unsuitable middle pairing d-men.

Besides 2012-2013 Anderson was never that good stat wise, that said he was facing the most shots against in the League most other years.

2013 was the only time that Anderson played behind a trapping defense like Lalime played behind his whole time in Ottawa.

I don't think ottawa has ever had a real advantage as far as goaltending goes. It's just never been a strength

I'd generally lean to Anderson because of his franchise records but even with that, he had quite a few seasons where on average he just wasn't good enough

I think it's hard to also not consider during the Lalime era that the offence just never got it done. Think about how much better Lalime's stats would have needed to be to get it done. We had some awesome teams that just weren't able to get it done and far more than Lalime were to blame for that. I'll quote myself on something i said on here months back "tkachuk is the antidote for what ailed our team from 2000 to 2005"

Choosing between Lalime and Anderson is kind of like deciding which of the last two girls without a date to the prom you're going to ask.

There's no way that Lalime could have dueled Price, Lundqvist and Rask in the playoffs.

His last 3 decline years haven't been great, but I'd take his first 6 seasons over and over if we could. The team would have been a monster if Anderson had been backstopping them between 2003-2008.

I understand what you mean, but Keith Tkachuk was a notoriously bad playoff performer who didn't produce and took dumb penalties.

They were the highest scoring team in the NHL. Its really not close here.

Lalime and Jaques Martins were to blame. Some goes to Alfie he was no good in 2003 the year they should have won.

They were the highest scoring team from 2003-2008.
From 1999-2002, it was more like 7-8th on average and it was dependent on Yashin's presence or absence. He contributed 1 point in those 4 postseasons.

Alfredsson's ice time clearly looks like they were managing an injury in 2003. He averaged 16:57 minutes per game for 12 straight games after game 3 vs NYI. That doesn't fit with his career postseason averages unless it was an injury.

2007	23:20	_
2010	22:54	_
1999	22:23	_
2002	21:43	_
2001	21:20	_
2006	21:10	_
1998	20:51	_
2000	20:22	_
2004	20:03	_
2008	19:20	Knee injury
2013	19:10	40yo
2003	18:00	???
2012	17:58	Concussion
2014	15:49	Back injury

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Amazing people remember Lalime's struggles but don't remember that the offense stunk. We were always one of the highest scoring teams in the regular season only to dry up in the playoffs. If posters want to claim the team had no confidence in Lalime these struggles began before Lalime was a Sen.

We averaged 1.5 GF against Buffalo in 1999, shut out once in 4 games with Tugnutt and Rhodes. In 2000 we averaged 1.6 GF and were shut out once in 6 games with Barrasshole in nets. Enter Lalime in 2001 and we averaged 0.75 GF (!!!!) and were shut out twice in 4 games. In 2002 against the Leafs we jumped to 2.2 and were shut out twice. Come to 2004 and we're back to averaging 1.5 and were shut out 3 times.

We have 4 different goalies in Rhodes, Tugnutt, Barasso and Lalime....and we averaged less than 2 goals a game with all of them. Common denominators being the coach and the core players.

No one is denying Lalime struggled at times, but the free pass the skaters are getting at the expense of one player is not right.

There's no doubt about that. Here are two tables that illustrate the difference between Alfredsson (who gets his share of criticism) vs the other stars we've had:
PPG RS (times they went PPG for us in the regular season - min 41 GP)
PPG (times they posted a PPG in a playoff series)
PS (total playoff series played)
PPG/PS% (% of the series they played in and posted a PPG or more.

Player	PPG RS	PPG	PS	PPG/PS%
JS	4	4	12	0.33
DH	3	3	7	0.43
MH	2	2	9	0.22
AY	2	0	5	0.00
AYMHJSDH	11	9	33	0.27
DA	8	11	23	0.48

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

And those numbers look better than what actually happened, because 6 those times that a star other than Alfredsson went a PPG in a series was when Spezza & Heatley did almost all of their damage in the same 3 series', as you'll see below.

This is number of times a player went a PPG in a playoff series: Alfredsson alone vs the Rest of Team from 1997-2013 and not just the stars:

_	DA	RoT	# series'
Total	11	18	23
2006.1	0	5	1
2010.1	1	4	1
2002.1	1	2	1
2007.2	1	2	1
2007.3	1	2	1
5 series'	4	15	5
Other 18	7	3	18

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

All of the damage was done in a handful of series with strong support and/or a weak opponent.

While obviously not in the same tier as the Belfours and Josephs, Lalime was no worse than Osgoode and we should have been able to do with Lalime what Detroit did with Osgoode. We were that deep. Osgood got run support though. I mean, his save % over the first three games in 98 was 0.835 with a GA of 4.3! He also gave up the first goal half way through the 1st in game 4.

I still take Andy.

Osgood helped blow it for a historic team in 1996.
There were 7 HHoF'ers on the 1998 Wings.
So what would it have taken Ottawa to overcome Osgood and how many chances would he get to blow before he finally won?