Management Senators and League Wide Revenue

DaveMatthew

Bring in Peter
Apr 13, 2005
14,507
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I don’t think they are too worried about who they attend games with... selling the ticket for cash makes it look like they give them away anyway. The way the tickets are priced they pay $80 for a $110 F’a e value ticket and pocket $110 of cash from the secondary market after already writing down the initial cost of the ticket.

Yes, they may not care, but if the CRA were to find out, they would. This is what we call tax fraud. People and businesses have paid stiff penalties for much less...
 

Sweatred

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Jan 28, 2019
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Yes, they may not care, but if the CRA were to find out, they would. This is what we call tax fraud. People and businesses have paid stiff penalties for much less...

I agree - but I’m not pretending to be super plugged in ... but I’ve never heard of anyone having to fight that. Same with all the work trucks at the grocery store or hockey rinks. Stub hub type sites are full of corporate/business tickets being sold off for cash that have been used to lower taxable incomes. This is another tier of government support that we don’t get.
 
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IlTerrifico

Registered User
Oct 24, 2016
615
432
Regardless of the fan base composition and finances, the simple fact is that as a small market team, the Sens, like other small markets, can afford to spend near the cap when the roster is at its best and selling more seats plus adding some playoff revenue, and get down near the cap when the roster trend is low.

You can assume these strategies leave the team positioned to roughly break even on operations annually in both situations, but the owner can see an average appreciation in team value as his financial gain of $15 - $20M per year, which has proven out based on his $100M purchase and current valuation.

The fan base would understand this cycle, if they actually went for it when they have a shot, unlike 2017 where they added mediocre scraps when they lost to Pittsburgh, who always add quality at the deadline, and if the Sens didn't reach the salary floor with IR contracts and filler in the low years.

Properly run small market teams like Calgary, when they bottom out, keep their core top talent around, and clean out the middle tier short term contracts to save money and lose enough to get reasonable draft picks.

Cheapo nickling and diming on both ends of the success meter is what pisses people off, along with his comments.

Who in their right mind would keep buying seasons tickets in years like last year where they had Tkachuk, Chabot, and a bunch of kindling? At least in 2018-19 they had Stone and Duchesne and the few youngsters to watch while they were losing.

By the way, in the last 3 seasons, the Sens have 71 more losses than wins. 82-153. That level of crapiness will see StooEuge's golden media contract egg reduced big time next negotiation, you can be sure. I imagine the ratings have dropped similar to rink attendance.
 
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AchtzehnBaby

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Mar 28, 2013
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Regardless of the fan base composition and finances, the simple fact is that as a small market team, the Sens, like other small markets, can afford to spend near the cap when the roster is at its best and selling more seats plus adding some playoff revenue, and get down near the cap when the roster trend is low.

You can assume these strategies leave the team positioned to roughly break even on operations annually in both situations, but the owner can see an average appreciation in team value as his financial gain of $15 - $20M per year, which has proven out based on his $100M purchase and current valuation.

The fan base would understand this cycle, if they actually went for it when they have a shot, unlike 2017 where they added mediocre scraps when they lost to Pittsburgh, who always add quality at the deadline, and if the Sens didn't reach the salary floor with IR contracts and filler in the low years.

Properly run small market teams like Calgary, when they bottom out, keep their core top talent around, and clean out the middle tier short term contracts to save money and lose enough to get reasonable draft picks.

Cheapo nickling and diming on both ends of the success meter is what pisses people off, along with his comments.

Who in their right mind would keep buying seasons tickets in years like last year where they had Tkachuk, Chabot, and a bunch of kindling? At least in 2018-19 they had Stone and Duchesne and the few youngsters to watch while they were losing.

By the way, in the last 3 seasons, the Sens have 71 more losses than wins. 82-153. That level of crapiness will see StooEuge's golden media contract egg reduced big time next negotiation, you can be sure. I imagine the ratings have dropped similar to rink attendance.

From a business perspective, makes more sense to clean house, including the core so that you do not carry anything forward while you are building from scratch. The cash in reserves from the rebuild years is available to pay the contracts required for the young talent the team picked up in those down years.

Instead of keeping a Karlsson or Stone around for $10+ M per year ...it is easily used for good leaders from trades with short contracts.
 

BonHoonLayneCornell

Registered User
Oct 16, 2006
15,228
10,450
Yukon
Regardless of the fan base composition and finances, the simple fact is that as a small market team, the Sens, like other small markets, can afford to spend near the cap when the roster is at its best and selling more seats plus adding some playoff revenue, and get down near the cap when the roster trend is low.

You can assume these strategies leave the team positioned to roughly break even on operations annually in both situations, but the owner can see an average appreciation in team value as his financial gain of $15 - $20M per year, which has proven out based on his $100M purchase and current valuation.

The fan base would understand this cycle, if they actually went for it when they have a shot, unlike 2017 where they added mediocre scraps when they lost to Pittsburgh, who always add quality at the deadline, and if the Sens didn't reach the salary floor with IR contracts and filler in the low years.

Properly run small market teams like Calgary, when they bottom out, keep their core top talent around, and clean out the middle tier short term contracts to save money and lose enough to get reasonable draft picks.

Cheapo nickling and diming on both ends of the success meter is what pisses people off, along with his comments.

Who in their right mind would keep buying seasons tickets in years like last year where they had Tkachuk, Chabot, and a bunch of kindling? At least in 2018-19 they had Stone and Duchesne and the few youngsters to watch while they were losing.

By the way, in the last 3 seasons, the Sens have 71 more losses than wins. 82-153. That level of crapiness will see StooEuge's golden media contract egg reduced big time next negotiation, you can be sure. I imagine the ratings have dropped similar to rink attendance.
As a big time critic of basically anything Melnyk does, I don't think they were that off base to go full on scorched earth rebuild. The main issue for them was communication and talking like they were signing all of them until the bottom fell out. The Duchene trade leading in to it made it all a bit comical and just added another big piece to make the exodus look worse.

The issue though now is that they will end up with likely 4 and possibly 5 throwaway seasons and that might be too much of a killer when fan interest was already at an all time low.

It feels like they are starting from scratch on everything, including a fan base.
 

IlTerrifico

Registered User
Oct 24, 2016
615
432
I disagree that cleaning house is the way to go, as it has several negatives:
- single game fan expectation goes from hoping top players can pull one out to almost certain loss = huge enthusiasm loss and sad mood around the franchise.
- related attendance in the Sens case was a 3000/game drop this year = 123000 over 41 games normal season x say $50 ticket = $6.15M less income, plus all extending impacts on advertising, rink sales, community enthusiasm. Pays for keeping some core assets.
- when rebuild is done, few team vets to lead when actually contending for something.
- in the case of Team Cheapo, have never acquired a key vet with term to speed up the rebuild, so extra years of sucking added to get talent needed or a botched effort like Duchesne possible.
Sens had Flames-like steady, high attendance when the core players offered some hope every year. Trust in management to put an entertaining product on the ice ruined a 20 year streak of over 16K per game.
 
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DueDiligence

Registered User
Nov 16, 2013
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Private sector workers can't write tickets off either, let's be clear on that. Businesses can right off tickets, not employees of businesses
I know but I didn't want to write a 6 page thread!
But as long you are running a business, including being self-employed , you can write off 50% of the cost. And you don't pay for them in after tax dollars like a civil servant or "joe worker" would.
 

GCK

Registered User
Oct 15, 2018
15,487
9,739
Scorched earth was done to save money BUT now that it’s done I will enjoy watching this team grow. The most enjoyment I had as a Sens fan was watching Hossa, Havlat, Alfie and Redden grow into really good players. Hopefully Melnyk doesn’t rip this apart before we get that excitement again.
 

AchtzehnBaby

Global Matador
Mar 28, 2013
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I disagree that cleaning house is the way to go, as it has several negatives:
- single game fan expectation goes from hoping top players can pull one out to almost certain loss = huge enthusiasm loss and sad mood around the franchise.
- related attendance in the Sens case was a 3000/game drop this year = 123000 over 41 games normal season x say $50 ticket = $6.15M less income, plus all extending impacts on advertising, rink sales, community enthusiasm. Pays for keeping some core assets.
- when rebuild is done, few team vets to lead when actually contending for something.
- in the case of Team Cheapo, have never acquired a key vet with term to speed up the rebuild, so extra years of sucking added to get talent needed or a botched effort like Duchesne possible.
Sens had Flames-like steady, high attendance when the core players offered some hope every year. Trust in management to put an entertaining product on the ice ruined a 20 year streak of over 16K per game.

The timing was perfect... everyone has an excuse to hate the team... because of the owner. Why not clear the decks and lay the new floor... no one there to notice.
 
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Stylizer1

SENSimillanaire
Jun 12, 2009
19,276
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We went through 10 years of missing the playoffs one year to just making it the next year? that lowers expectations too.

This has a lot to due with lower revenues. Management should have been shown the door but this organization wasn't trying to win, they were managing finances. People figured it out.

Remember Alfie's last season? Everyone wanted to play with him one last time. Spezza even had a bad back and played because everyone knew Alfie wasn't coming back. Fans found out later with the whole give him a blank check bullshit.
 

Micklebot

Moderator
Apr 27, 2010
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The timing was perfect... everyone has an excuse to hate the team... because of the owner. Why not clear the decks and lay the new floor... no one there to notice.

Fans don't need somebody to blame, they need faith that things will get better. By that metric, the timing of this rebuild was pretty terrible. We are pretty foutunate that SJ completely bombed instead of a more gradual decline. That's really given the team a bit of hope for the future.
 

Sweatred

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Fans don't need somebody to blame, they need faith that things will get better. By that metric, the timing of this rebuild was pretty terrible. We are pretty foutunate that SJ completely bombed instead of a more gradual decline. That's really given the team a bit of hope for the future.

We are really lucky that PD ignored the fans and made the decision to trade an aging super star. Nobody liked that deal but it was genius regardless of where the 1RD SJ pick fell.
 

Micklebot

Moderator
Apr 27, 2010
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We are really lucky that PD ignored the fans and made the decision to trade an aging super star. Nobody liked that deal but it was genius regardless of where the 1RD SJ pick fell.
By all accounts the player made the decision not the gm. But thats not the point nor is re-litigating the trade really relevant to the discussion.
 
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Sweatred

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By all accounts the player made the decision not the gm. But thats not the point nor is re-litigating the trade really relevant to the discussion.

Pretty sure PD made the trade. I can’t see how you can try to package that as a 100% player decision. You made the claim that we are “pretty fortunate” that SJ bombed. That’s isn’t accurate, we are lucky we made the trade, SJ doing as poor as they did is just the bonus.

Comments like that unfairly suggest PD was lucky with the deal. It was a great deal even if Ottawa picks 16th with the SJ pick.
 
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Micklebot

Moderator
Apr 27, 2010
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Pretty sure PD made the trade. I can’t see how you can try to package that as a 100% player decision. You made the claim that we are “pretty fortunate” that SJ bombed. That’s isn’t accurate, we are lucky we made the trade, SJ doing as poor as they did is just the bonus.

Comments like that unfairly suggest PD was lucky with the deal. It was a great deal even if Ottawa picks 16th with the SJ pick.

The player refused to sign leaving the gm little choice but to trade him. How bout you not derail a thread by rehashing a trade long past though? I made no judgement on the trade, just that the SJ 1st being higher than likely anyone could have reasonably predicted, was fourtunate and does a lot to help fans hope going forward.
 

Sweatred

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The player refused to sign leaving the gm little choice but to trade him. How bout you not derail a thread by rehashing a trade long past though? I made no judgement on the trade, just that the SJ 1st being higher than likely anyone could have reasonably predicted, was fourtunate and does a lot to help fans hope going forward.

Lots of players refuse to sign offers ... it happens in most negotiations... and hey... your the one that brought up how fortunate we were for the trade (based on the pick falling) which isn’t accurate. The Sens were fortunate that PD didn’t extend EK as that he was able to get a great trade deal.

It’s part of the EM is cheap and PD is a fluke fallacy that gets pushed around here and directly related to how they act within the realities of their market place and league wide revenues.
 
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Sweatred

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We are pretty foutunate that SJ completely bombed instead of a more gradual decline. That's really given the team a bit of hope for the future.

The team would have had “a bit” of hope if SJ gave us a 20OA pick, Norris, Balcers, 2RD pick, 3RD pick etc. Not paying EK $11.5 x8 is a bonus in itself. That would of sunk the Sens payroll given its revenue stream.

SJ falling to 3OA is just extra bonus, not the deciding factor in what determines the trade to be good or whatever.
 

Micklebot

Moderator
Apr 27, 2010
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The team would have had “a bit” of hope if SJ gave us a 20OA pick, Norris, Balcers, 2RD pick, 3RD pick etc. Not paying EK $11.5 x8 is a bonus in itself. That would of sunk the Sens payroll given its revenue stream.

SJ falling to 3OA is just extra bonus, not the deciding factor in what determines the trade to be good or whatever.
Again, not relitigating the trade or judging it. 3rd oa is the only piece we have right now that has a very good chance of becoming a superstar, maybe 5th oa too. It's the high end pieces that give fans hope imo, not well managed cap space or depth of good but not great players. If the team is going to increase revenue in the short term it will be on the backs of premier prospects breaking into the league, not guys like Batherson and Norris, as much as i like them. They don't move the needle for the casual fans that checked out.
 

AchtzehnBaby

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Fans don't need somebody to blame, they need faith that things will get better. By that metric, the timing of this rebuild was pretty terrible. We are pretty foutunate that SJ completely bombed instead of a more gradual decline. That's really given the team a bit of hope for the future.

I am somewhat hopeful we can pull this off. This organization has made us the laughing stock of the league, but at least the team is no longer the lowest stock in the league. Top 5 next season for prospects, IMO.
 

Sweatred

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Again, not relitigating the trade or judging it. 3rd oa is the only piece we have right now that has a very good chance of becoming a superstar, maybe 5th oa too. It's the high end pieces that give fans hope imo, not well managed cap space or depth of good but not great players. If the team is going to increase revenue in the short term it will be on the backs of premier prospects breaking into the league, not guys like Batherson and Norris, as much as i like them. They don't move the needle for the casual fans that checked out.

That might be your opinion but I don’t think it representative of casual fans. The causal fan knows that Norris is a good prospect and they wouldn’t trade Norris back for EK let alone NYI for EK’s contract. The separation hurt but fans know we don’t need 2021–> EK at $11.5 in this marketplace.
 

JD1

Registered User
Sep 12, 2005
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The player refused to sign leaving the gm little choice but to trade him. How bout you not derail a thread by rehashing a trade long past though? I made no judgement on the trade, just that the SJ 1st being higher than likely anyone could have reasonably predicted, was fourtunate and does a lot to help fans hope going forward.

There are a lot of ways you can look at this.

IIRC, the consensus view on the board at the time was the offer put forward wasn't legit or am I misremembering that?

Was the view from the GM suite we'll only sign the player on a below market contract?

The SJ pick being higher is a big bonus. SJ not making the playoffs is a debatable issue many here including myself saw that coming
 
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Micklebot

Moderator
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There are a lot of ways you can look at this.

IIRC, the consensus view on the board at the time was the offer put forward wasn't legit or am I misremembering that?

Was the view from the GM suite we'll only sign the player on a below market contract?

The SJ pick being higher is a big bonus. SJ not making the playoffs is a debatable issue many here including myself saw that coming
Thats fair, there is the possibility that Dorion was lying all along about his desire to sign the player, but again, that's a topic for another thread.

The sj pick being where it is is a huge boon for a team looking to inspire hope, thats all i was saying. If you loved the trade at the time, the pick becoming 3rd is still huge. For those that hated the trade it makes it a lot more palatable than even a 10th oa would. Anyway you frane it, we are lucky to have 3rd oa.
 
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Stylizer1

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Jun 12, 2009
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Lots of players refuse to sign offers ... it happens in most negotiations... and hey... your the one that brought up how fortunate we were for the trade (based on the pick falling) which isn’t accurate. The Sens were fortunate that PD didn’t extend EK as that he was able to get a great trade deal.

It’s part of the EM is cheap and PD is a fluke fallacy that gets pushed around here and directly related to how they act within the realities of their market place and league wide revenues.
In any other city Karlsson would have been resigned as well as Stone. Our cheap owner and the players distrust in the organization lead to where we are now.
 

Sweatred

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In any other city Karlsson would have been resigned as well as Stone. Our cheap owner and the players distrust in the organization lead to where we are now.
I disagree with that. You see St.Louis showing they won’t pay full market price etc to keep AP. Smart organizations don’t make bad deals loaded with negative value that handy cap them for years.
 
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