Management Senators and League Wide Revenue

[Sweatred]

This fanbase would have turned on EK after his last 2 seasons in a heartbeat.

Maybe ... We seem to be really patient with Ryan and White. The amount of fan protection around those two is impressive for a combined $11 million of mostly negative value. But I agree, EK probably doesn't get the same leeway.

 

[DaveMatthew]

I disagree with that. You see St.Louis showing they won’t pay full market price etc to keep AP. Smart organizations don’t make bad deals loaded with negative value that handy cap them for years.

St.Louis isn't a great example since they have relatively big dollars tied up in O'Reilly, Schenn, Tarasenko and (for some reason) Justin Faulk.

If we had signed Stone, Duchene and Pageau, but let Karlsson go, that'd be a similar situation.

But we let everyone leave.

 

[DaveMatthew]

People also often get too hung up on how much one individual player makes. "This market can't support a $9 or $10M a year player".

That's not true.

This market can't support spending all the way to the cap and needs an internal budget. But how salaries are allocated within the constraints of that budget? That's up to Pierre Dorion.

We could have kept JG Pageau and Dylan Demelo at a combined 9.5-10 million instead of re-signing White for 4.75 and trading for Zaitsev with his 4.5M contract, for example.

My personal opinion is that Mark Stone, Erik Karlsson and Matt Duchene had zero interest in coming back to this dysfunctional organization so the decision was made for Dorion, but we can spend $9-10M on a player, if they want to play here.

 

[BatherSeason]

I disagree with that. You see St.Louis showing they won’t pay full market price etc to keep AP. Smart organizations don’t make bad deals loaded with negative value that handy cap them for years.

The Ottawa Senators are not a "Smart" Organization. They moved on from those players because those players didn't want to be here anymore. The self-inflicted circus they have created over the past few years shows that they are the exact opposite of a "Smart Organization.

 

[BatherSeason]

Maybe ... We seem to be really patient with Ryan and White.

Wait....patient with Ryan??? Its been the complete opposite, minus this past season. And of course we should be patient with Colin White, he only recently signed his extension and is only 23 years old. Just because you have some strange hatred for the guy doesn't mean everyone else should.

 

[Sweatred]

Wait....patient with Ryan??? Its been the complete opposite, minus this past season.

Maybe I misremember .. bit I feel we are harded on Borocop than Ryan.

 

[Sweatred]

The Ottawa Senators are not a "Smart" Organization. They moved on from those players because those players didn't want to be here anymore. The self-inflicted circus they have created over the past few years shows that they are the exact opposite of a "Smart Organization.

4000 posts hating the EK deal say otherwise. Fans wanted to keep EK, MD, RD, MS, JPG etc. For the most part all of those trades were probably good/great hockey trades
and the overall fan sentiment is the part that isn't "SMART".

 

[BatherSeason]

4000 posts hating the EK deal say otherwise. Fans wanted to keep EK, MD, RD, MS, JPG etc. For the most part all of those trades were probably good/great hockey trades
and the overall fan sentiment is the part that isn't "SMART".

This organization has been a sh*tshow for at least 3 years now, complete opposite of "Smart" IMO. Its ok to admit it while defending PD and EM at the same time.

 

[Sweatred]

This organization has been a sh*tshow for at least 3 years now, complete opposite of "Smart" IMO. Its ok to admit it while defending PD and EM at the same time.

I have a hard time finding much fault in the past year .... I also separate the stupid things EM says from the on ice decisions PD makes. I don't like EM, I just don't see him as a total cheepo ... or at least not any more frugal than the Ottawa fan base.

I liked ...
1. The MD acquisition. I know it didn't work out great, however I was happy to move on from KT.
2. All the UFA trades.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Moving everyone of value, and throwing away as many seasons as it takes to be good again and bad money to expire is the easiest job a GM can have. Its not like signing these guys appeared to be an option either way, so the decision was essentially made well before it happened.

We can commend the genius of the Karlsson trade but in an alternate history all you do is not make the Duchene trade and you're in the same spot. You use Turris in a rebuild trade while keeping their lottery pick and shed the rest like they did.

They have done the easy part. Lets see if they can do the hard part and afford to keep the band together.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

The Ottawa Senators are not a "Smart" Organization. They moved on from those players because those players didn't want to be here anymore. The self-inflicted circus they have created over the past few years shows that they are the exact opposite of a "Smart Organization.

Finally people agree that EK and Stone didn't want to sign here. LOL

So, this is the wrong thing. We couldn't sign any of the future stars with 8 year contracts on some old dudes that we had during their peak. It is the best way to do a rebuild. Tear the shit down to the scorched earth. Start over fresh. Little Dorion said this when he let EK and Stoner fly south

 

[JD1]

In any other city Karlsson would have been resigned as well as Stone. Our cheap owner and the players distrust in the organization lead to where we are now.

Actually i kinda think it was the start of a trend

Did NY sign Tavares? He walked for nothing. How's that working out for NY? and for Toronto?

Did St L just tell Pietrangelo to explore free agency?

Would SJ like a do over on the EK trade?

I think the NHL model is shifting and i think we were early on that shift. A point I've made here a few times

 

[GCK]

Maybe ... We seem to be really patient with Ryan and White. The amount of fan protection around those two is impressive for a combined $11 million of mostly negative value. But I agree, EK probably doesn't get the same leeway.

Two different situations. Ryan is basically a lost cause and we just accept we have to wait out the end of the contract, why complain since nothing can be done. White has played 1 year on his contract and most people are open to seeing how things play out this year, because they don’t see him as a lost cause.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Finally people agree that EK and Stone didn't want to sign here. LOL

So, this is the wrong thing. We couldn't sign any of the future stars with 8 year contracts on some old dudes that we had during their peak. It is the best way to do a rebuild. Tear the shit down to the scorched earth. Start over fresh. Little Dorion said this when he let EK and Stoner fly south

I keep hearing this, but I don't think it's true.

I think it's fair to say that the Senators had to do a scorched earth rebuild, because of numerous constraints (they couldn't pay the players, and even if they wanted to, those players didn't want to stay).

But what was the last team that truly tore it down to the ground and rebuilt, the same way Ottawa has, and came out of it with sustained success?

Chicago did it, but the second they drafted Kane, they started spending aggressively to surround him and Toews with talent. Are we going to draft Stutzle and then sign Pietrangelo and Markstrom? I doubt it.

Pittsburgh did it, but they got real lucky Crosby and Malkin. That calibre of player is not available in 95% of drafts. And just like Chicago, once they drafted Crosby, they started spending.

St. Louis didn't tear it down. Dallas didn't tear it down. Boston didn't tear it down. Carolina didn't tear it down. Even Tampa didn't ever really tear it down.

All of those teams have managed to rebuild and inject a lot of young talent into their lineups without completely torching their roster of established players.

What we did over the last 3 seasons is unprecedented, so it's hard to say that it's the best way to do a rebuild. What we're doing now (spending 20 million less than the cup and expecting our young players to learn how to win without any veteran guidance) has never worked before, either.

We'll see what happens.

It works for the Rays in baseball, so maybe it'll work for us in the NHL. But we're following a blueprint that's never really worked before.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Actually i kinda think it was the start of a trend

Did NY sign Tavares? He walked for nothing. How's that working out for NY? and for Toronto?

Did St L just tell Pietrangelo to explore free agency?

Would SJ like a do over on the EK trade?

I think the NHL model is shifting and i think we were early on that shift. A point I've made here a few times

NYI made every possible effort to re-sign Tavares, including hiring Lou Lamiorello and Barry Trotz (one of the best GMs and one of the best coaches in NHL history) to help them keep him, and if they couldn't, help them mitigate the impact.

St.Louis told Pietrangelo to explore free-agency as they already had big-money commitments to Ryan O'Reilly, Brayden Schenn and Vladimir Tarasenko.

These are not similar situations at all.

Ottawa traded Karlsson AND Stone AND Duchene AND Pageau, didn't sign anyone to replace them, and gave the keys to an inexperienced GM and coach.

 

[Sweatred]

The Senators letting the UFA’s walk isn’t about wether they could afford to pay them or not ... their going to spend $60-80 or whatever the number is ...

It’s about who do you want to be paying in 4 years ? Norris, 3OA, 5OA , Brady, Chabot, Brann, JBD, Bath etc or EK, MD, RD, JPG, or MS.

We couldn’t win when those guys were 25, there is no point in trying with the same group until they are 36. You can make the argument that we should keep Stone (if he would stay) but you have to pick which prospects you’ll let go in 3-5 years when you can’t afford Stone and Norris/Bath or whoever.

 

[DaveMatthew]

The Senators letting the UFA’s walk isn’t about wether they could afford to pay them or not ... their going to spend $60-80 or whatever the number is ...

It’s about who do you want to be paying in 4 years ? Norris, 3OA, 5OA , Brady, Chabot, Brann, JBD, Bath etc or EK, MD, RD, JPG, or MS.

We couldn’t win when those guys were 25, there is no point in trying with the same group until they are 36.

You know, it is possible to make trades when, one day, you have to move money around. And nobody is saying that we should have kept ALL of Karlsson, Stone, Duchene, Pageau, Hoffman, Demelo, etc.

But we easily could have kept 1 or 2 of them and still been very well set up for the future.

It's not "keep all the UFAs" or "trade all the UFAs". There's a middle ground.

 

[Sweatred]

You know, it is possible to make trades when, one day, you have to move money around. And nobody is saying that we should have kept ALL of Karlsson, Stone, Duchene, Pageau, Hoffman, Demelo, etc.

But we easily could have kept 1 or 2 of them and still been very well set up for the future.

It's not "keep all the UFAs" or "trade all the UFAs". There's a middle ground.

Sure - but we don’t have a lot of ability to absorb buyouts and Stone and Pager still cost $15 million which is 2-3 of those players you wouldn’t be able to afford when they come off the ELC’s or bridges.

It is a gamble - but I not sure who is better in 3-5 years. Norris, Bath, and Brann or Stone, Pager and RD.

Add Stone and Pagers salaries into the potential 2023 Sens payroll with Chabot, White, Brady, Z and there isn’t much room left for the 16 other players.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

Ottawa traded Karlsson AND Stone AND Duchene AND Pageau, didn't sign anyone to replace them, and gave the keys to an inexperienced GM and coach.

I guess no one should ever promote an assistant GM to GM in the NHL, eh?

 

[DaveMatthew]

I guess no one should ever promote an assistant GM to GM in the NHL, eh?

You can promote Dorion from assistant GM to GM and surround him with other competent people to help him figure out the job.

But all he was given was a contracts-lawyer to be his assistant and a rotating crew of shady "business leaders" as President.

Why not an experienced President of Hockey Ops? Why not a couple of advisors who've been there and done it?

 

[DaveMatthew]

Sure - but we don’t have a lot of ability to absorb buyouts and Stone and Pager still cost $15 million which is 2-3 of those players you wouldn’t be able to afford when they come off the ELC’s or bridges.

It is a gamble - but I not sure who is better in 3-5 years. Norris, Bath, and Brann or Stone, Pager and RD.

Who's going to insulate and support those players to help them become star NHLers? The way Stone helped Tkachuk? Or Alfredsson/Gonchar helped Karlsson?

There are so many variables that go into developing a top-end NHL players.

Do you think it's going to be great for Batherson's or Norris' development if they're out there next year playing without the pick for 90% of shifts?

There's a reason why franchises like Arizona and Buffalo end up with more draft "busts" than Boston and Tampa, and it's not because they have worse scouting staffs.

Prospects like Brannstrom, Batherson, Norris, etc are not generational sure things. They need help.

Would Norris or Brown become a better player if they had Stone on their wing instead of Duclair? How different did Batherson look in his stretch playing with Duchene vs. his abysmal showing last season? Who's going to partner with Brannstrom and insulate him? Wolanin? Zub? Zaitsev? Reilly?

Dorion better start putting a team together that can help these kids develop, because it's not just magically going to happen, and they're at the point where they should start making an NHL impact. Most of them aren't 18 year olds anymore.

Batherson, Norris and Brown have all the talent to make a Cirelli type impact in the NHL next year, if they have support.

 

[BatherSeason]

Who's going to insulate and support those players to help them become star NHLers? The way Stone helped Tkachuk? Or Alfredsson/Gonchar helped Karlsson?

There are so many variables that go into developing a top-end NHL players.

Do you think it's going to be great for Batherson's or Norris' development if they're out there next year playing without the pick for 90% of shifts?

There's a reason why franchises like Arizona and Buffalo end up with more draft "busts" than Boston and Tampa, and it's not because they have worse scouting staffs.

Prospects like Brannstrom, Batherson, Norris, etc are not generational sure things. They need help.

Would Norris or Brown become a better player if they had Stone on their wing instead of Duclair? How different did Batherson look in his stretch playing with Duchene vs. his abysmal showing last season? Who's going to partner with Brannstrom and insulate him? Wolanin? Zub? Zaitsev? Reilly?

Dorion better start putting a team together that can help these kids develop, because it's not just magically going to happen.

But Eugene promised us the big FYOUS

 

[BankStreetParade]

I keep hearing this, but I don't think it's true.

I think it's fair to say that the Senators had to do a scorched earth rebuild, because of numerous constraints (they couldn't pay the players, and even if they wanted to, those players didn't want to stay).

But what was the last team that truly tore it down to the ground and rebuilt, the same way Ottawa has, and came out of it with sustained success?

Chicago did it, but the second they drafted Kane, they started spending aggressively to surround him and Toews with talent. Are we going to draft Stutzle and then sign Pietrangelo and Markstrom? I doubt it.

Pittsburgh did it, but they got real lucky Crosby and Malkin. That calibre of player is not available in 95% of drafts. And just like Chicago, once they drafted Crosby, they started spending.

St. Louis didn't tear it down. Dallas didn't tear it down. Boston didn't tear it down. Carolina didn't tear it down. Even Tampa didn't ever really tear it down.

All of those teams have managed to rebuild and inject a lot of young talent into their lineups without completely torching their roster of established players.

What we did over the last 3 seasons is unprecedented, so it's hard to say that it's the best way to do a rebuild. What we're doing now (spending 20 million less than the cup and expecting our young players to learn how to win without any veteran guidance) has never worked before, either.

We'll see what happens.

It works for the Rays in baseball, so maybe it'll work for us in the NHL. But we're following a blueprint that's never really worked before.

What is the timeframe you're using when you say teams like St. Louis, Dallas, Boston, Carolina and Tampa didn't tear down? Are we talking the last 5 years? 10 years? 15 years? I doubt we can look at just the last 5 years because most of the teams have core players who were drafted in the mid-2000s.

Should we also consider their success during that time period?

Let's look at St. Louis, as an example.

Since 2005-06, they have played 15 seasons:

• Missed the playoffs 6 times
• Lost in the first round 5 times
• Lost in the second round 2 times
• Lost in the WCF once
• Won a Stanley Cup

They won a Cup without many of the best players they drafted in the years leading up to the formation of that core:

• TJ Oshie (#24OA 2005)
• Erik Johnson (#1OA 2006)
• Patrik Berglund (#25OA 2006)
• Lars Eller (#13OA 2007)

They kept the trio of Schwartz (2010), Tarasenko (2010) and Pietrangelo (2008) and supplemented with O'Reilly (trade), Schenn (trade), Bozak (UFA).

So, did they go full scorched earth? Definitely not. But I don't know how I would describe the results of 11/15 years resulting in no playoffs or a first round exit in relation to the way they did do it.

Maybe if we define what time frame we're analyzing these tear downs over we can start assembling some information about the types of results each team had.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

You can promote Dorion from assistant GM to GM and surround him with other competent people to help him figure out the job.

But all he was given was a contracts-lawyer to be his assistant and a rotating crew of shady "business leaders" as President.

Why not an experienced President of Hockey Ops? Why not a couple of advisors who've been there and done it?

Totally agree. They effed up that side.

 

[Sweatred]

Who's going to insulate and support those players to help them become star NHLers? The way Stone helped Tkachuk? Or Alfredsson/Gonchar helped Karlsson?

There are so many variables that go into developing a top-end NHL players.

Do you think it's going to be great for Batherson's or Norris' development if they're out there next year playing without the pick for 90% of shifts?

There's a reason why franchises like Arizona and Buffalo end up with more draft "busts" than Boston and Tampa, and it's not because they have worse scouting staffs.

Prospects like Brannstrom, Batherson, Norris, etc are not generational sure things. They need help.

Would Norris or Brown become a better player if they had Stone on their wing instead of Duclair? How different did Batherson look in his stretch playing with Duchene vs. his abysmal showing last season? Who's going to partner with Brannstrom and insulate him? Wolanin? Zub? Zaitsev? Reilly?

Dorion better start putting a team together that can help these kids develop, because it's not just magically going to happen, and they're at the point where they should start making an NHL impact. Most of them aren't 18 year olds anymore.

Batherson, Norris and Brown have all the talent to make a Cirelli type impact in the NHL next year, if they have support.

I agree with you ... but I also know Bobby Ryan and Colin White (last two F extensions) aren’t insulating anyone either -