Sportsnet: Senators’ Dorion talks team’s payroll, off-season moves and 2019-20 optimism

[DaveMatthew]

Dave, I simply disagree with your assessments concerning trades, but then again, you are in the group of people who assumes that we could have gotten better deals for every trade we have made, without any evidence to support the theory by the way, so we fundamentally disagree on the trading front anyways.

I don’t think anyone was excited for Prusek, maybe I’m wrong. Bishop and Lehner we’re both exciting, until Lehner tried to rush his development and flopped. Bishop would have been nice to keep, but the reality was that Andy was just better than both of them, so there was no real need to overly care about who was going to be back up. Emery was a great character, but I don’t think anyone looked at him as a special goalie. He was the unfortunate substitute for Hasek. Again to each their own, I’m getting a sense that you really liked those guys.

You're really re-writing history here. Here's a blast from the past: http://www.hockeysfuture.com/articles/7087/senators_top20_prospects/

Emery is the Ottawa Senators’ top prospect now and has been since Jason Spezza graduated to the NHL.

And this: http://www.hockeysfuture.com/articles/7354/hockeys_future_top50_prospects2650/

Emery’s stock has skyrocketed since being selected in the fourth round of the 2001 draft. In his three years since the draft, his list of achievements is impressive: CHL Goaltender of the Year, a place on the AHL All-Rookie Team, and two AHL All-Star Game appearances to his credit.

He was the 29th ranked prospect in the entire league by HF in 2004, better than Batherson, Formenton, Brown, Norris, etc are today. Hell, they ranked him above Getzlaf and Perry.

But no, nobody ever looked at him as a top prospect, unlike Hogberg, Gustavsson and Sogard.

I don't know, maybe you just weren't around in the 2000's, but you're saying a lot of things that simply aren't true.

If you want to say that our goalie prospects are better than ever, go right ahead, but you should provide some background (scouting reports, stats, etc). Saying, "well I just like them better" isn't an argument, neither is making things up about the past.

 

[GrantLemons]

Honestly I’m pretty bullish on this crop of kids. I love the focus on character and ‘playing the right way’ was well as building from the net out. This group and the young core are trending towards the exact type of team that I want to watch, and that I think can be a long-term successful squad (not getting into ownership crap).

If I’m wrong, then I’ll be wrong, and disappointed like those of you I’m disagreeing with. If I’m right, then I’ll be right, and everyone will be happy together.

How we each decide to conduct ourselves in the meantime is down to personal preference. Me, I’m stocked and don’t really care much about the guys we traded away anymore, what can I say, Duchene was the closest of all of them to the type of player I like most, and he was only here for a year.

I guess I’m just an ‘onward and upward’ type of fan. I respect your potion Dave, don’t take my position personal

No one is trying to persecute you for your optimistic outlook on our prospects, but in most cases here you're flat out overrating them. There's no way in any world we are in better shape now goaltender wise than when we had Lehner and Bishop. Both guys went on to be Vezina caliber goaltenders. We'll be lucky if one of our guys turns our to be a starter, let alone competing for Vezinas.

We're on a forum to discuss such things. Overrating prospects will more often than not be met with a reality check. What do you think non-biased fans on the main board would think about our prospects? Probably similar to how Dave and I tend to see things. Lots of 'good' pieces, but no sure things.

Now if we add a top 3 OA forward to that next June, things will change very quickly.

 

[JD1]

I think we have a deep prospect pool in the “quantity” sense but that it’s very light in the “quality” sense.

Getting a bunch of 23-26yo 3rd & 4th liners from drafting isn’t how you build a winning team. These kind of players can be acquired for cheap through free agency.

I’m also not saying all of them will bomb, but statistically speaking (if you want to bring out the “basic math”), the odds are not good. Outside of the first round, very few players become consistent NHLers. Now, we’re not talking star players, just players that manage to hang around for a couple hundred games.

Although it’ll never happen, I’ve already lost 2 pro sports teams (Nordiques & Expos) so I couldn’t possibly care any less if the Sens eventually leave.

So why do you believe our prospect pool is full of bottom 6 players? Everything I read pegs a bunch of them as middlec6 players. Weve already got Tkachuk who will be a top line player. We've got White who will/is a top 6 player. Chabot isa 1st pair guy. Brannstrom may be that we well, except he is also an LD. We need one of our recent picks to become a top 4 which gives us 3 young top 4 guys.

Any list of top prospects I look at contains a bunch of 2019 guys. Our 2019 picks haven't done anything to move up since the draft so no surprise there. What will a top prospect list look like next year after the 2020 draft? If we suck as hard as people believe we are going to have a top 4 pick. I agree we don't have an abundance of top line prospects....but I asked the question probably a month ago what a top prospect is...the top guys every year go from the draft to the nhl in September...outside of the top 3 to 5 guys chosen every year the 1st liners that emerge 5 years down the road are drafted somewhere after 5th overall

 

[GrantLemons]

group of people who assumes that we could have gotten better deals for every trade we have made

I'm failing to see how not waiting until the 11th hour to trade all of our big 3 wouldn't have resulted in better returns for each of the trades (minus maybe Dzingel).

Is Pierre at his best when his leverage is the lowest?

 

[JD1]

Now if we add a top 3 OA forward to that next June, things will change very quickly.

So you are someone who is of the view we are going to suck this coming season. Amirite? As in dead last suck, book it now?

If that's the case wouldn't we have that top 3 OA on the way?

I think adding that top 3 0A in 2020...we'll be a playoff contending team in 2021.

 

[topshelf15]

Davidsson is 22 years old. He's not a prospect to be excited about. Every single NHL team has tons of guys like him.

This year, we drafted Thomsen, Pinto, Sogaard, Lodin, Kastelic and Guenette. Every single one of those players was considered a reach, and outside of Thomsen, no one should be pencilled into a lineup anytime soon.

But you wanted to evaluate year 1 of the rebuild, so you have to look at all the assets that changed hands in year 1.

Out:
Erik Karlsson
Matt Duchene
Mark Stone
Mike Hoffman
Ryan Dzingel
4th OA pick (Bowen Byram)

In:
Erik Brannstrom
Josh Norris
Vitali Abramov
Anthony Duclair
Jonathan Davidsson
Chris Tierney
Dylan Demelo
Mikkel Boedker
Rudolfs Balcers
19th OA pick (Lassi Thomsen)
37th OA pick (Mads Sogard)
1st round pick 2020 (TBD)
2nd round pick 2020 (TBD)
2nd round pick 2020 (TBD)

That is not good.

Yep,add in the amount of money EM saved,is also another factor in why we got torched on value on almost everything...

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

I am relaxed having a beer on the patio.

Anyone who is stating the team will be playoff bound within 2 years is drinking the Melnyk Dorion Koolaid.

I don’t think anyone believes that two years....

PS I am drinking beer , making beer can chicken all while watching the police and news helicopters fly around

 

[Micklebot]

So you are someone who is of the view we are going to suck this coming season. Amirite? As in dead last suck, book it now?

If that's the case wouldn't we have that top 3 OA on the way?

I think adding that top 3 0A in 2020...we'll be a playoff contending team in 2021.

At best we have just shy of a 50% chance at a top 3 pick. Add in the odds that we don't finish last and it's probably closer to 30-40%

I still think we'll get a great pick even if we land outside the top 3, and under normal circumstances, I'd like how this team is positioned to make big improvements, but you have to seriously question whether a team that is currently running a bare bones front office will be able to make the right moves come to fruition going forward.

Maybe the inexperience/lack of support will lend itself to poor decisions. Maybe it will be players not buying the way Karlsson, Stone, and Duchene all essentially opted out. But you can guarantee it wont all go as planed, even the best run orgs make mistakes and run into the unexpected.

Time will tell, things can change quickly, if the team starts spending on support both on and off the ice, it would drastically reduce our handicap. Hopefully things turn out, but I think the odds are not in our favour atm.

 

[Cosmix]

I don’t think anyone believes that two years....

PS I am drinking beer , making beer can chicken all while watching the police and news helicopters fly around

What’s happening where you are?

No police or helis around the east end of Ott.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Davidsson is 22 years old. He's not a prospect to be excited about. Every single NHL team has tons of guys like him.

This year, we drafted Thomsen, Pinto, Sogaard, Lodin, Kastelic and Guenette. Every single one of those players was considered a reach, and outside of Thomsen, no one should be pencilled into a lineup anytime soon.

But you wanted to evaluate year 1 of the rebuild, so you have to look at all the assets that changed hands in year 1.

Out:
Erik Karlsson
Matt Duchene
Mark Stone
Mike Hoffman
Ryan Dzingel
4th OA pick (Bowen Byram)

In:
Erik Brannstrom
Josh Norris
Vitali Abramov
Anthony Duclair
Jonathan Davidsson
Chris Tierney
Dylan Demelo
Mikkel Boedker
Rudolfs Balcers
19th OA pick (Lassi Thomsen)
37th OA pick (Mads Sogard)
1st round pick 2020 (TBD)
2nd round pick 2020 (TBD)
2nd round pick 2020 (TBD)

That is not good.

Thomson was a reach as well . He was slotted late first early 2nd. He does look like he has potential however.
2019 Draft was a strange one for the Sens IMO. Taking Pinto at 32 was a real eyebrow raiser. I really don't like the 2019 draft results. We passed on too much skill upside for my liking. Taking Lodin in the 4th. He would very likely have gone through and we could have had him for nothing. I don't mind the Kastelic and Guenette picks in the later rounds.

Dorion has blown it with the Zib trade, the Duchene coming in trade; The Stone 1 year and trade return, the Karlsson trade and the Hoffman trade.. Huge pieces ... not close to enough quality coming back .. and the writing was on the wall well in advance. He unrealistically hoped those guys would stay and/or his boss would pony up. His big chance to rebuild with some quality pieces is gone which will prolong the rebuild and likely keep us in the world of under-spending the floor because the results will not warrant anything more. Its sickening that we have the Melnyk - Dorion combo running this team. Lets see how the smug piece of shyte handles Chabot, White and Tkachuk going forward.

 

[Micklebot]

What’s happening where you are?

No police or helis around the east end of Ott.

He's in enemy territory...

 

[Cosmix]

He's in enemy territory...

The blue and white!

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Even if we suddenly start drafting perfectly, we still need more. Even McDavid can't drag the Oilers anywhere when he's stuck with poor coaching and idiots in the front office and no depth on the ice. Success is a total organization concept.

 

[Ice-Tray]

You're really re-writing history here. Here's a blast from the past: http://www.hockeysfuture.com/articles/7087/senators_top20_prospects/



And this: http://www.hockeysfuture.com/articles/7354/hockeys_future_top50_prospects2650/



He was the 29th ranked prospect in the entire league by HF in 2004, better than Batherson, Formenton, Brown, Norris, etc are today. Hell, they ranked him above Getzlaf and Perry.

But no, nobody ever looked at him as a top prospect, unlike Hogberg, Gustavsson and Sogard.

I don't know, maybe you just weren't around in the 2000's, but you're saying a lot of things that simply aren't true.

If you want to say that our goalie prospects are better than ever, go right ahead, but you should provide some background (scouting reports, stats, etc). Saying, "well I just like them better" isn't an argument, neither is making things up about the past.

I was definitely doing other things in the 2000’s than following prospects on the internet. I stand corrected, it looks like people were really excited about Emery, I watched him when he came up to the Sens and enjoyed him, but never felt that he was an elite tender.

Also, I’m not trying to make an argument here, I’m sharing how I feel about our prospects. I will never ever spent the time to provide you with scouting reports or stats, or anything really. I’m into having discussions, but not at all into doing any work to try and sway your opinion. When I’m excited about our prospects, I don’t really care what HF has to say about rankings, I just don’t look at that stuff.

I simply don’t care, sorry if that sounds rude. I’m happy to allow you the pleasure and freedom to enjoy your chosen opinions

 

[Ice-Tray]

No one is trying to persecute you for your optimistic outlook on our prospects, but in most cases here you're flat out overrating them. There's no way in any world we are in better shape now goaltender wise than when we had Lehner and Bishop. Both guys went on to be Vezina caliber goaltenders. We'll be lucky if one of our guys turns our to be a starter, let alone competing for Vezinas.

We're on a forum to discuss such things. Overrating prospects will more often than not be met with a reality check. What do you think non-biased fans on the main board would think about our prospects? Probably similar to how Dave and I tend to see things. Lots of 'good' pieces, but no sure things.

Now if we add a top 3 OA forward to that next June, things will change very quickly.

I don’t feel persecuted in the slightest, no worries.

Bishop was good, but took a massive leap to be Vezina caliber, after we traded him.

Lehner was not consistently good for a long stretch after trading him. He did have a ton of potential, he just went off the rails for a few years. Good for him to make it back, but it was never going to be with us, or his original team.

Perhaps it’s just that I’m more interested in our prospects now than I have been previously. I enjoy the concept of a rebuild.

I’ll just be stoked on this group and leave the rankings to you guys, I honestly don’t mind.

 

[Ice-Tray]

I'm failing to see how not waiting until the 11th hour to trade all of our big 3 wouldn't have resulted in better returns for each of the trades (minus maybe Dzingel).

Is Pierre at his best when his leverage is the lowest?

You always wait until the 11th hour, because that’s when teams have to piss or get off the pot.

I don’t see how we could have expected better deals by making them earlier, makes no sense in the spirit of a negotiation period.

You wait out the clock and see if anyone else steps up to to the current offer. If not, you make the deal, if so, boom.

 

[Ice-Tray]

No one is trying to persecute you for your optimistic outlook on our prospects, but in most cases here you're flat out overrating them. There's no way in any world we are in better shape now goaltender wise than when we had Lehner and Bishop. Both guys went on to be Vezina caliber goaltenders. We'll be lucky if one of our guys turns our to be a starter, let alone competing for Vezinas.

We're on a forum to discuss such things. Overrating prospects will more often than not be met with a reality check. What do you think non-biased fans on the main board would think about our prospects? Probably similar to how Dave and I tend to see things. Lots of 'good' pieces, but no sure things.

Now if we add a top 3 OA forward to that next June, things will change very quickly.

Why would that change things, that would one player who is more of a sure thing than others.

The ‘reality’ is that no one’s prospect pool is filled with sure things, because there really is no such thing. The best prospects who are ‘guaranteed’ to be awesome are already in the NHL, everyone else is a lottery ticket of various odds.

We have a lot of good pieces, and a couple are pretty great, I’m good with that.

I also don’t care what the main board thinks, nor do I need a somber ‘reality check’ when trying to enjoy our pool, lol. It’s you guys that seem to have the issue operating in the same space as people who are stoked, not the other way around.

As I’ve said numerous times, I’m not looking to change your minds, I simply don’t care. You do you, I’m totally fine with that. Me? I’m going to continue to be more stoked about this group than I have been about any other leftover group.

Cheers!

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

What’s happening where you are?

No police or helis around the east end of Ott.

Mob hit down the road.

All is well.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

If you really want to see how we compare around the league you can find the leafs front office here: Maple Leafs Management

Yes let's compare arguably one of the smallest NHL Markets with the largest NHL Market.

 

[Sens]

I like to compared the 67s management team to the Sens

OHL management is more structured then the Sens lol

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

At best we have just shy of a 50% chance at a top 3 pick. Add in the odds that we don't finish last and it's probably closer to 30-40%

I chuckled when I read this.

Not at you, or your post, but at all the posts made over the past (almost) 2 years, that complained that PD had traded Jack Hughes away, when he made the trade to acquire Matt Duchene.

Even before it became obvious that Ottawa was finishing dead last, and Colorado was going to have an 18% chance at the first overall draft pick, the complaining racketed up even more, Hughes was going to become a member of the Avalanche, it was pretty much guaranteed ........ and when the lottery results were announced ............. it was all forgotten.

And now, when Ottawa seems destined, again, to finish dead last, there is zero expectations that the Senators will win the draft Lottery, or even finish dead last.

It's too funny.

 

[Upgrayedd]

Similar to Eugene and Pierre...."I've been consistently wrong for years now but you should continue to respect and appreciate my opinion" is how I read the few defenders left on here, good for a laugh and thats about it.

 

[BatherSeason]

I chuckled when I read this.

Not at you, or your post, but at all the posts made over the past (almost) 2 years, that complained that PD had traded Jack Hughes away, when he made the trade to acquire Matt Duchene.

Even before it became obvious that Ottawa was finishing dead last, and Colorado was going to have an 18% chance at the first overall draft pick, the complaining racketed up even more, Hughes was going to become a member of the Avalanche, it was pretty much guaranteed ........ and when the lottery results were announced ............. it was all forgotten.

And now, when Ottawa seems destined, again, to finish dead last, there is zero expectations that the Senators will win the draft Lottery, or even finish dead last.

It's too funny.

The expectation is that Dorion is somehow going to blow a top 5 pick by going on off the board and passing up high end skill for character. That's my expectation at least

 

[harrisb]

Yes let's compare arguably one of the smallest NHL Markets with the largest NHL Market.

So you ignored comparing the 67’s staff to the Sens, seems logical. Is it also logical that the leafs front office is many multiples larger than ours?

Let’s take a look at arguably the worst market in hockey, the Arizona coyotes, what do you say to that one?
Staff

Heck, name any team and I’m more than happy to debate, given your flippant response there must be tons of them that mirror the sens?

 

[Micklebot]

So you ignored comparing the 67’s staff to the Sens, seems logical. Is it also logical that the leafs front office is many multiples larger than ours?

Let’s take a look at arguably the worst market in hockey, the Arizona coyotes, what do you say to that one?
Staff

Heck, name any team and I’m more than happy to debate, given your flippant response there must be tons of them that mirror the sens?

Holy carp... I just checked out Arizona's font office and the list goes on for days...

I think they list everybody down to the mail room on there...

Staff