Sportsnet: Senators’ Dorion talks team’s payroll, off-season moves and 2019-20 optimism

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Micklebot

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Colorado is another example. Not better. Different. But another example.
So are you contending that TO was organically a last place team instead of strategically one? The idea that a last place team can just flick a switch imo is flawed. Toronto went out of it's way to temporarily be last. They also didn't have to contend with today's lottery format. Why aren't you instead bringing up Edm or Buffalo? The reason is because toronto did something different. They weren't a team that was just bad and rebuilt by drafting a top pick, they were a team that had most of the pieces and gamed the system to get that coveted final piece.
 

DaveMatthew

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Colorado is another example. Not better. Different. But another example.

Toronto's rebuild cannot, in any way, be compared to what Ottawa is doing. They kicked it off by firing the former regime and bringing in Shanahan, Lamiorello, Babcock, Hunter and Dubas. They put a management staff together that was incredibly experienced and credible, with Championship pedigree.

We have done nothing of that sort. We have Pierre Dorion (who created the mess) and a contract lawyer.

It's like apples and oranges.

There's this expectation around here that once you tear it down and say the world "rebuild", you'll be exponentially better every season and after 3 years, you'll be competing again. It hardly every works like that.

Look at Edmonton, Florida, Arizona and Buffalo - teams that have been perpetually "rebuilding" for years.

Draft picks and prospects don't matter if you surround them with crap and provide zero support.
 

DaveMatthew

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TML is not living up to expectations. They are chokers. The end.

21 year old's Drake Batherson and Logan Brown combine for 104 points in 115 AHL games, but miss the playoffs.
"These guys are future studs! FYOUS incoming! Dorion is a drafting savant and the rebuild is great!"

21 year old Auston Matthews and 22 year old Mitch Marner combine for 167 points in 150 NHL games, but lose in the first round.
"These guys are chokers! They'll never get better! Terrible rebuild!"
 

Upgrayedd

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Toronto's rebuild cannot, in any way, be compared to what Ottawa is doing. They kicked it off by firing the former regime and bringing in Shanahan, Lamiorello, Babcock, Hunter and Dubas. They put a management staff together that was incredibly experienced and credible, with Championship pedigree.

We have done nothing of that sort. We have Pierre Dorion (who created the mess) and a contract lawyer.

It's like apples and oranges.

There's this expectation around here that once you tear it down and say the world "rebuild", you'll be exponentially better every season and after 3 years, you'll be competing again. It hardly every works like that.

Look at Edmonton, Florida, Arizona and Buffalo - teams that have been perpetually "rebuilding" for years.

Draft picks and prospects don't matter if you surround them with crap and provide zero support.

Senators fans balking at how Toronto went about their rebuild and their chances of future success has to be one of the funnier things I have read on here in awhile, incredible even for the internet!
 
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JackieDaytona

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As much as I hate the leafs - and love hating on the leafs - they are currently a good team, and in my view a contender. Perhaps their defence as a whole is a relative weakness, but it's not in bad shape. They have an amazing set of forwards and decent depth all around - a dangerous team offensively. All they need is a good run to do damage in the playoffs.
It is f***ing painful to write this out. BRB, vomited a little in my mouth.
 

JackieDaytona

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Oct 21, 2007
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As much as I hate the leafs - and love hating on the leafs - they are currently a good team, and in my view a contender. Perhaps their defence as a whole is a relative weakness, but it's not in bad shape. They have an amazing set of forwards and decent depth all around - a dangerous team offensively. All they need is a good run to do damage in the playoffs.
It is f***ing painful to write this out. BRB, vomited a little in my mouth.
 

SPF6ty9

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^This.

Toronto's defense is nowhere close to being championship caliber. And in today's game, no goalie is going to be able to save them.

They will be competitive and very fun to watch....but don't put money on them to win when it matters.

Do not buy this at all. There is no cookie cutter model to win the cup, a lot of different style teams have got it done. Pittsburgh won it all 2 years with Schultz as their #1 in the playoffs; Toronto may have 3 defensemen better than that.

Whether Sens fans like it or not, the Leafs have built a great team. I'd be surprised if they don't make the finals in the next 5 years and maybe even win. One extra bounce in the first round and that might have just happened this past year.
 

Ice-Tray

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We are pretty stacked in net and on D so far in this young rebuild, with some pretty good looking forwards, and a captain and heart and soul already locked up. We also have a brand new coaching staff designed around team building and development, with loads of head coaching experience, and a player lived head coach.

We’re not a playoff team yet, and have two big drafts coming up, but in my opinion we are rebuilding the exact way that any of us, or most hockey people around the league, would outline a proper rebuild.

If you you tune out the noise on the outside, the actual team and staff look very promising, more so than this team has ever put together in a ‘rebuilding’ situation.

I understand it’s hard for many to turn away from the front office train wreck, but when you do, as many of us do (for enjoyments/sanity’s sake) this rebuild looks pretty good so far.


People hate him, but I’m actually pretty stoked that we finally have a GM that can make the difficult and unpopular decisions and moves, and is able to swing for the fences, and make big trades. He takes a lot of heat, as is par for the course given that he’s the GM, but I respect that he’s out there rebuilding this team according to his vision, keeping news quite, and getting things done, rather than leaking to the media constantly, or sitting frozen in his office, terrified of making changes, being crushed under the weight of budget restraints. Given how much we all feel that the owner meddles, and how tight we all feel the budget is, and how embarrassing the owner is, and the damage he has done to the team’s image, it really is quite something that the rebuilding team actually looks really promising, with so many more pucks coming up shortly.

It’s a credit to the GM in my opinion.
 

Micklebot

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Apr 27, 2010
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We are pretty stacked in net and on D so far in this young rebuild, with some pretty good looking forwards, and a captain and heart and soul already locked up. We also have a brand new coaching staff designed around team building and development, with loads of head coaching experience, and a player lived head coach.

We’re not a playoff team yet, and have two big drafts coming up, but in my opinion we are rebuilding the exact way that any of us, or most hockey people around the league, would outline a proper rebuild.

If you you tune out the noise on the outside, the actual team and staff look very promising, more so than this team has ever put together in a ‘rebuilding’ situation.

I understand it’s hard for many to turn away from the front office train wreck, but when you do, as many of us do (for enjoyments/sanity’s sake) this rebuild looks pretty good so far.


People hate him, but I’m actually pretty stoked that we finally have a GM that can make the difficult and unpopular decisions and moves, and is able to swing for the fences, and make big trades. He takes a lot of heat, as is par for the course given that he’s the GM, but I respect that he’s out there rebuilding this team according to his vision, keeping news quite, and getting things done, rather than leaking to the media constantly, or sitting frozen in his office, terrified of making changes, being crushed under the weight of budget restraints. Given how much we all feel that the owner meddles, and how tight we all feel the budget is, and how embarrassing the owner is, and the damage he has done to the team’s image, it really is quite something that the rebuilding team actually looks really promising, with so many more pucks coming up shortly.

It’s a credit to the GM in my opinion.

Our D and goaltending was considered stacked in 2012 too, but we traded Rundblad, Wiercioch and Cowen busted, Lee flopped, lehner turned out to be a headcase and what was supposed to be the strength of our turnaround ended up as our ongoing problem.

It's not all bad, i like our prospects too, but history suggests a bunch won't live up to the expectations.

I was willing to excuse some decisions Dorion has made because he doesn't control the budget and has to work within it but so often i find he backs himself into corners.
 

JD1

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Our D and goaltending was considered stacked in 2012 too, but we traded Rundblad, Wiercioch and Cowen busted, Lee flopped, lehner turned out to be a headcase and what was supposed to be the strength of our turnaround ended up as our ongoing problem.

It's not all bad, i like our prospects too, but history suggests a bunch won't live up to the expectations.

I was willing to excuse some decisions Dorion has made because he doesn't control the budget and has to work within it but so often i find he backs himself into corners.

I think it is pretty fair to say that Rundblad and wiercioch flopped. Not so sure that applies to Cowen and Lee...their flameouts were more injury driven imo
 

AchtzehnBaby

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Do not buy this at all. There is no cookie cutter model to win the cup, a lot of different style teams have got it done. Pittsburgh won it all 2 years with Schultz as their #1 in the playoffs; Toronto may have 3 defensemen better than that.

Whether Sens fans like it or not, the Leafs have built a great team. I'd be surprised if they don't make the finals in the next 5 years and maybe even win. One extra bounce in the first round and that might have just happened this past year.

I think most agree.

They have the biggest bank account.

It is a no brainer. The MLSE wants each Toronto team to win. They invested huge amounts.

The hardest thing is winning the championship.

TFC
Raptors
Argonauts
Leafs ... maybe
 

JD1

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So are you contending that TO was organically a last place team instead of strategically one? The idea that a last place team can just flick a switch imo is flawed. Toronto went out of it's way to temporarily be last. They also didn't have to contend with today's lottery format. Why aren't you instead bringing up Edm or Buffalo? The reason is because toronto did something different. They weren't a team that was just bad and rebuilt by drafting a top pick, they were a team that had most of the pieces and gamed the system to get that coveted final piece.

I am contending that Toronto went from last place overall, won the draft and 3 straight years in the playoffs followed. That's actually what factually happened so I'm not really contending that. I'd call it highlighting a historical fact.

So I asked why it is going to take us 6 to 7 years to get anywhere
 

Micklebot

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I think it is pretty fair to say that Rundblad and wiercioch flopped. Not so sure that applies to Cowen and Lee...their flameouts were more injury driven imo
Agree that Cowen and Lee were injury related but the point is don't count your chickens before they hatch. In the end whether it's because of injuries , commitment or talent the final result is the same.
 

Micklebot

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So I asked why it is going to take us 6 to 7 years to get anywhere
I think if you read people's posts in response to yours you would have a pretty clear answer to that question...

I also suspected that you follow the league close enough to not have to ask that question in the first place but here we are.
 

Ice-Tray

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Our D and goaltending was considered stacked in 2012 too, but we traded Rundblad, Wiercioch and Cowen busted, Lee flopped, lehner turned out to be a headcase and what was supposed to be the strength of our turnaround ended up as our ongoing problem.

It's not all bad, i like our prospects too, but history suggests a bunch won't live up to the expectations.

I was willing to excuse some decisions Dorion has made because he doesn't control the budget and has to work within it but so often i find he backs himself into corners.

Absolutely, but if you can’t be hopeful about prospects over and over again, it may be time to give up being a sports fan!! Haha...

This group is pretty exciting, Cowen and Rundy, sure, but I don’t think anyone was excited about Lee, and Weir was never exciting to me either. We did have Lehner, which was good, but we have at least 3 goalie prospects right now that are looking good, and a couple dark horses.

Perhaps it’s the depth of quality at those two positions that is most exciting. We actually have room for a bust or two and still have a solid core group, with two more massive drafts to add more.

With Chabot, Branstrom, and Thompsen, I’m more stoked about our D than I have been since Redden and Chara and Phillips. Throw JBD in there as well and I personally haven’t been this hopeful for a group.

Anyways, I’m naturally positive, and I enjoy being hopeful about my sports teams. This young group, and the ground up rebuild (finally) has me looking forward to following along.
 
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GrantLemons

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Perhaps it’s the depth of quality at those two positions that is most exciting. We actually have room for a bust or two and still have a solid core group, with two more massive drafts to add more.

His point is that we need to be a little more realistic. Only one or two succeeding and transforming into bonafide top 4D is much more likely than only one or two busting. It's not being not optimistic, it's just being real. Lehner projected to be better than any goaltender we have in our system right now at just about every stage of his development, and he still didn't turn out to be our goaltender of the future.

Anything can happen. If we manage to pull one or two top 4 D out of our current crop of Brann, Jaros, Lajoie, JBD, Tychonick, Thompson (whoever else I'm missing) we should be ecstatic.
 
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AchtzehnBaby

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I think if you read people's posts in response to yours you would have a pretty clear answer to that question...

I also suspected that you follow the league close enough to not have to ask that question in the first place but here we are.

6 or 7 years sounds a little extreme. I have read some of the posts you talk about. I think that maybe a worse case scenario.

I am hoping we are good to go in 3-4 years. i can`t wait 7
 

Micklebot

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6 or 7 years sounds a little extreme. I have read some of the posts you talk about. I think that maybe a worse case scenario.

I am hoping we are good to go in 3-4 years. i can`t wait 7

Fair enough, hyperbole is the nature of the game here, 6 or 7 could be a stretch, but it could be never too. Oiler have made the playoffs what, 2 times in the last 15 years? Lots of shiny prospects means nothing if the team isn't managed well. Personally i see our management team or lack there off as being far closer to Edm than TO's.
 
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RaMai

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Fair enough, hyperbole is the nature of the game here, 6 or 7 could be a stretch, but it could be never too. Oiler have made the playoffs what, 2 times in the last 15 years? Lots of shiny prospects means nothing if the team isn't managed well. Personally i see our management team or lack there off as being far closer to Edm than TO's.
How you phrased it would mean you put our Management team (PD and his contract guy) between the Oilers and Toronto...you're right, we are closer to Edmonton.
But I would put it more like we are as far away from EDM as they are from Toronto.
 

DaveMatthew

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I am contending that Toronto went from last place overall, won the draft and 3 straight years in the playoffs followed. That's actually what factually happened so I'm not really contending that. I'd call it highlighting a historical fact.

So I asked why it is going to take us 6 to 7 years to get anywhere

Well a few reasons:

• Toronto hired a proven, winning coach in Mike Babcock to turn a young team into a playoff team, and paid him an exorbitant amount of money to do it. Now, Babcock may not be the guy to take them from playoff team to Stanley Cup winner, but he was certainly the right guy to get them contending in the first place.
• The Leafs also hired Lou Lamiorello to lead the rebuild - you know, the guy who's one of the most successful executives of all-time? He set the tone for all of those young players, just like he did for Brodeur, Niedermayer and Stevens.

What has Ottawa done?

They still have same guy who thought the team was a Stanley Cup contender and went "all-in" in November 2018 and only to declare a major rebuild 3 months later running the show.
 

Tnuoc Alucard

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As much as I hate the leafs - and love hating on the leafs - they are currently a good team, and in my view a contender. Perhaps their defence as a whole is a relative weakness, but it's not in bad shape.

Cody Ceci put them over the top.
 

DaveMatthew

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Cody Ceci put them over the top.

I'd say Tyson Barrie, who outscored 59 points last season, is the bigger add.

Rielly (Norris calibre), Barrie (top-end offensive D), Muzzin (stay-at-home top 4 with Cup winning pedigree) is nothing to sneeze at.

I mean, that's the type of core we hope Chabot, Brannstrom and Jaros develop into...
 

BonkTastic

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Cody Ceci put them over the top.

tenor.gif
 
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