Semin vs Horton redux

[bryan579]

Igor Volkov has all of one less point than Semin and is barely a year older. Yet you don't hear anyone hyping him at all, outside of a few Isles fans. RSL is certainly a high level of competition, but it doesn't necessarily translate. People here tend to take more stock in what has been accomplished on NA rinks. Horton's all around game and his physicality combined with the points he's put up, makes him more proven and likely to translate into a big NHL game. This is not to say that Semin's accomplishments are anything to sneeze at either, as he is also a fantastic prospect that any team would love to have. Both have the potential to be fine players.

Nobody around here seems to understand how little Semin played for the first half of the season and how often he was a healthy scracth because he wasnt playing untill stupid Cassidy got fired. When he did start playing a lot thats when all the points came so it was in a short amount of time. Also everybody seems to forget how well he did in the AHL playoffs last year, 11 points in 7 games and it was said that he was dominating those games.

 

[Captain Conservative]

Injury this injury that, is his career over because of bad desicions by his doctor? Hardly.

Semin is great offensively, so what? You honestly would take a decent scorer over an all around forward who has equal offensive power.

"By the way, thanks for acknowleding that you were wrong about your first statement. It let's me know how much credence to give to you."

fyi, trying to show how insignificant your statement was. 3 games, thats nothing. Factor in how horton got injured after each of his dominant streaks and he would have much more points.

His injury(its the same injury he had before, no?) IS what i'm factoring in. I would honestly take a prospect whom I think will score 80+ points in the NHL over a guy whom I think will be oft-injured. Its a matter of opinion. You may think that Hortons shoulder won't be a problem in the long run and that Semin won't evolve into an effective NHL scorer. Its possible. Why do you take it so personally?


Also, a word of advice: don't get into arguments with borro. He is notorious for being the caps biggest homer and regularly makes ridiculous statements with only his opinion to back them up. The only reason I don't have him on ignore is he makes me laugh sometimes.

Make up your mind already. You just called him a bust a couple of hours ago:




http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.php?p=2428024&highlight=bust#post2428024

Brilliant. Idiocy exposed.

 

[Amen evil king]

Nobody around here seems to understand how little Semin played for the first half of the season and how often he was a healthy scracth because he wasnt playing untill stupid Cassidy got fired. When he did start playing a lot thats when all the points came so it was in a short amount of time. Also everybody seems to forget how well he did in the AHL playoffs last year, 11 points in 7 games and it was said that he was dominating those games.

Borro repeatedly argued this point last time 'round. While it certainly holds some truth, it is nothing short of lying to claim that Semin didn't get any points without the help of Lang, Bondra, Jagr or Gonchar (as borro repeatedly did). Nearly half of Semin's points were on goals which involved at least one of the stars, which would lead me to believe that he didn't get all of his points in the short time after they were gone.

 

[bryan579]

Borro repeatedly argued this point last time 'round. While it certainly holds some truth, it is nothing short of lying to claim that Semin didn't get any points without the help of Lang, Bondra, Jagr or Gonchar (as borro repeatedly did). Nearly half of Semin's points were on goals which involved at least one of the stars, which would lead me to believe that he didn't get all of his points in the short time after they were gone.

http://www.washingtoncaps.com/team/plyrgamelogs.cfm?player_id=91160

so the 12 combined in Fed and March were with all teh stars right...

 

[J17 Vs Proclamation]

Geez its bloody funny listen to you guys condicting yourselves. PanthersRule you funniest guy i've ever meet. :lol

Horton injuries are worrying sure but you guys are making out like he can't recover. If he just relaxes and takes enough time off for it to heal completly then he is k.

Semin better than Horton last year sure keep dreamin. :lol

Horton was FLa best player and for the month just before his injury. The best. ppg rate for an 18yr old rookie playing on a bad team. Sure so was Semin but he didn't dominate, play as well or show as much as Horton. If Horton was fit and the nhl was ready he would beat Semin out da park.

I've never been high on Semin and i don't think he'll be the superstar many of you guys are saying. What he is doing is impressive sure.

For me Horton easily.

 

[Drake1588]

Semin has an impressive offensive skill set, and Horton looks to be a solid all-around player, current injury notwithstanding. Can one make an argument that Semin is going to be better? I suppose so... but borro doesn't have to be a smack-talking tool about it, either.

This is still very early when appraising these two players. Both look like they might do some damage at the NHL level. We'll see. I'd like to see an attitude adjustment as well as less diving and stickwork from Semin; and a sustained healthy streak from Horton when he returns. You hate to see shoulder injuries in power forwards. It can take fully a year and a half to shake off their effects, if serious enough. This is still a guy I'd want to have, though. Healthy, Horton is going to have a much easier time adjusting to the NHL grind when compared with Semin. Health is the operative word, of course.

 

[KOVALEV10*]

For me both are and will be great players in the near future but right now I would take horton.

 

[KOVALEV10*]

Oh hey Lehtonen bro did you get my pm? what do you think?

 

[Vincent_TheGreat]

Sorry I'll still take Horton over Semin! Horton is simply better!

 

[PSUhockey34]

because he....get this, hasn't earned it, and check this amazingness out, he ISN'T AS GOOD AS HORTON.

explain to me how Semin hasnt earned it

But it's comparing apple to oranges, both play a different type of style...personally I'd take Horton over Semin b/c of his potential of becoming a strong two-way player and if you're looking for a sniper, then Semin is the better pick

 

[borro]

explain to me how Semin hasnt earned it

But it's comparing apple to oranges, both play a different type of style...personally I'd take Horton over Semin b/c of his potential of becoming a strong two-way player and if you're looking for a sniper, then Semin is the better pick

Horton's play certainly will be affected by his injury. Power Forwards take a consistent pounding. It's just like concussions. They don't just go away. This propensity to injury was pointed out and Florida fans swore it was a one time thing and not a factor. It clearly is a factor and a large one. To lose a few games-ok. To lose a whole season is huge. This is the second time. When he came back to San Antonio he started with VERY ordinary numbers and not the domination that is being claimed.

Lehtonen-I never looked at Semin's breakdown but acknowledged your numbers. Your persistence in trying to make that an issue is deceptive because I acknowledged it but also pointed out he was going against first line checkers. He was our only threat after the firesale. Despite your attempts to minimize that (I guess you were lying because you failed to admit he faced first line checkers and Horton did not.) Semin performed well. He will be back in Washington when hockey resumes. He contributed more than expected for his first year. Horton will be back in the hospital. I'm sure he will start as quick for San Antonio as he did this year.

The Caps have a dman named Yonkman and his value has decreased because of injury. Horton devalues too. When he comes back and re-establishes his value, ok. He hasn't yet.

 

[CRUNK JUICE]

Semin has an impressive offensive skill set, and Horton looks to be a solid all-around player, current injury notwithstanding. Can one make an argument that Semin is going to be better? I suppose so... but borro doesn't have to be a smack-talking tool about it, either.

This is still very early when appraising these two players. Both look like they might do some damage at the NHL level. We'll see. I'd like to see an attitude adjustment as well as less diving and stickwork from Semin; and a sustained healthy streak from Horton when he returns. You hate to see shoulder injuries in power forwards. It can take fully a year and a half to shake off their effects, if serious enough. This is still a guy I'd want to have, though. Healthy, Horton is going to have a much easier time adjusting to the NHL grind when compared with Semin. Health is the operative word, of course.

Excellent post.

That said, I'd take Horton. I feel he's worth the injury risk because when healthy he can bring all of Semin's offence plus physical dominance few players can aspire to. Plus think about him on a line with Stewart someday... just WOW.

 

[Steve Latin*]

Samsonov vs. Thornton anyone? I can't say I know much about Horton or Semin, but it would seem reasonable to say based on what type of players they are that Semin will get off to a better start in his career.

My original comparison, albeit somewhat specious, was Elias vs. Doan. Who's the better player there? Clearly Elias has much more offensive ability but Doan is a more complete player and brings other abilities to the table while remaining competant offensively.

Ultimately this argument boils down to how a player is used and what a team needs. I see Semin doing very, very well for Washington. However, Horton is the type of player Iron Mike likes and if Semin were in his situation he might stagnate like Huselius.

I like both players, but given my team's needs (the Pens) I'd probably rather have a sniper like Semin over a power forward like Horton. If Terrell Owens was my primary receiver, I'd rather have him opposite of Hines Ward rather than Randy Moss. The two player's styles are incomparable, and so is their "worth" outside of any subjective context.

S L

 

[Amen evil king]

Lehtonen-I never looked at Semin's breakdown but acknowledged your numbers. Your persistence in trying to make that an issue is deceptive because I acknowledged it but also pointed out he was going against first line checkers. He was our only threat after the firesale. Despite your attempts to minimize that (I guess you were lying because you failed to admit he faced first line checkers and Horton did not.) Semin performed well. He will be back in Washington when hockey resumes. He contributed more than expected for his first year. Horton will be back in the hospital. I'm sure he will start as quick for San Antonio as he did this year.

I don't know where you got that I was lying from, I certainly don't remember any false statements on my behalf. I also don't think I've ever said that what Semin did after the fire sale wasn't impressive.

All I've done (IIRC ) in both threads is call out the silly claims that are being made, for example: a) 'Because Semin was a top 15 pick and Horton was a top 5 and because Semin has produced and Horton has dissapointed ( ) therefore Semin is better', and b) 'Semin got all of his points after the firesale, and didn't benefit at all from the likes of Bondra, Jagr, Gonchar and Lang' ..when it's fairly obvious that just ain't the case; he did get a fair share of his points on goals which involved one of the stars. I don't remember saying anything about Semin vs first line checkers or anything.

I think this recent injury has dropped Horton's value down a peg; losing another half-year of development is bad enough without considering that this could be a re-occurring injury. At this point though, I'm still a Horton-believer and I think he'll get over the injury troubles. I'm no psychic, so for all I know he may never crack 40 points in any season, but I'm still backing his immense potential at this stage (which isn't a slight against Semin by any means).

 

[Epsilon]

My original comparison, albeit somewhat specious, was Elias vs. Doan. Who's the better player there? Clearly Elias has much more offensive ability but Doan is a more complete player and brings other abilities to the table while remaining competant offensively.

Except you're totally wrong about this. Elias is one of the NHL's best all-around players, certainly much better at this point both offensively and defensively than Doan.

 

[Steve Latin*]

Except you're totally wrong about this. Elias is one of the NHL's best all-around players, certainly much better at this point both offensively and defensively than Doan.

I admitted it was specious -- what else more do you want?? Regardless, unless you're counting cheapshots, Elias doesn't bring the physical game of Doan, and to tell you the truth, I don't think he's as good defensively.

You can nitpick the Elias-Doan comparison all you want, but I still think the point I was trying to make about Semin vs. Horton is valid.

S L

 

[borro]

I admitted it was specious -- what else more do you want?? Regardless, unless you're counting cheapshots, Elias doesn't bring the physical game of Doan, and to tell you the truth, I don't think he's as good defensively.

You can nitpick the Elias-Doan comparison all you want, but I still think the point I was trying to make about Semin vs. Horton is valid.

S L

The point is that Semin is not just a one way player. He has a mean streak in him that is not typical for a one way player. Most of these people who claim Semin has done nothing simply haven't seen him play. A poster called txpd compared him to Tomas Sandstrom. I think that is an excellent comparison. Semin is VERY dangerous with the puck. He may wind up on a line with Ovechkin, which would provide him gift chances or a line with Fehr which will take him away from the checking line and force matchup nightmares. There is also the likelihood of 1-2 very good players being added to this team (Crosby, Brule, Johnson etc.) that will make us dangerous. Semin is definitely in the top lines mix and will be there for the long haul. The bottom line is Semin is undervalued. His points come "easier" than Horton's. I would not trade Semin for Horton at this point.

 

[Winston Wolf]

The point is that Semin is not just a one way player.

He compared Semin to Elias, all around the best two way forward in the league right now. Then you try to make a point that Semin isn't a one way player??? How clueless are you?



Also, while Doan has became a much better player, Elias is still vastly superior right now... and always will be. They're the same age, but because Doan is one of the flavors of the week (it's been a while now with the lockout) and a "powerforward" he all of a sudden becomes comparable to Elias. He's not.

 

[borro]

I don't know where you got that I was lying from, I certainly don't remember any false statements on my behalf. I also don't think I've ever said that what Semin did after the fire sale wasn't impressive.

All I've done (IIRC ) in both threads is call out the silly claims that are being made, for example: a) 'Because Semin was a top 15 pick and Horton was a top 5 and because Semin has produced and Horton has dissapointed ( )

So your expectations are the same for a Top 15th pick that they are for a Top 5 guy? This is ridiculous.

therefore Semin is better', and b) 'Semin got all of his points after the firesale, and didn't benefit at all from the likes of Bondra, Jagr, Gonchar and Lang' ..when it's fairly obvious that just ain't the case; he did get a fair share of his points on goals which involved one of the stars. I don't remember saying anything about Semin vs first line checkers or anything.

But I did. You tried to make it seem like that was all I said. In other words, you took what I said out of context. Semin was practically our only threat after the firesale. I guess using good linemates and putting up points should be to your detriment and not to your credit? Ridiculous to not mention that he also faced better checking and defenders. Your argument is not salient. Horton faced lesser checkers and I am a homer for bringing that up? No, the folks who are homers here are the ones who take only one side of an issue (Horton is great) and haven't even seen Semin or diss his play because of the Caps overall poor play last year. Now, two year long injuries don't bring up any questions. Yeah right.

Try watching Semin. He is not a power forward but he has some moves and he is going to be a producer. His career track thus far is much more impressive than Horton's.

I think this recent injury has dropped Horton's value down a peg; losing another half-year of development is bad enough without considering that this could be a re-occurring injury.

Finally, someone is hearing what I am saying.

At this point though, I'm still a Horton-believer and I think he'll get over the injury troubles. I'm no psychic, so for all I know he may never crack 40 points in any season,

You are a believer, I am not. The dilemma exists regardless of the side you are on.

but I'm still backing his immense potential at this stage (which isn't a slight against Semin by any means).

Potential is a mans greatest burden. In this case it probably is just staying healthy. fact is, we haven't seen much of this "potential." We may never see it. Doug Wickenheiser had great potential too.

I still like Yonkman and root for him but I am not ridiculous enough to claim injuries aren't a huge factor with him. It would be appropriate for you and others on the Horton bandwaggon to either embrace Yonkman's potential as unchanged or perhaps even admit he may have lost some lustre. Really, that is all I am saying. As far as actual point production, Semin diplayed his skills EQUAL to and in fact slightly better than Horton.

 

[borro]

He compared Semin to Elias, all around the best two way forward in the league right now. Then you try to make a point that Semin isn't a one way player??? How clueless are you?



Also, while Doan has became a much better player, Elias is still vastly superior right now... and always will be. They're the same age, but because Doan is one of the flavors of the week (it's been a while now with the lockout) and a "powerforward" he all of a sudden becomes comparable to Elias. He's not.

No, how clueless are you? Most of the claims are saying Semin is strictly one way. That simply isn't true from what I've seen. I see it was too difficult a leap for you to take the point of one post and apply to faulty logic in general. But then, you are a Flyers fan...

 

[Amen evil king]

Potential is a mans greatest burden. In this case it probably is just staying healthy. fact is, we haven't seen much of this "potential." We may never see it. Doug Wickenheiser had great potential too.

I still like Yonkman and root for him but I am not ridiculous enough to claim injuries aren't a huge factor with him. It would be appropriate for you and others on the Horton bandwaggon to either embrace Yonkman's potential as unchanged or perhaps even admit he may have lost some lustre. Really, that is all I am saying. As far as actual point production, Semin diplayed his skills EQUAL to and in fact slightly better than Horton.

You could equally say Horton made the NHL a full year younger than Semin and equalled Semin's production despite Alex having an extra year of development under his belt.

And I've already said Horton's been knocked down a peg in my eyes because of his injuries, I'm not sure what else you expect of me.

 

[Winston Wolf]

No, how clueless are you? Most of the claims are saying Semin is strictly one way. That simply isn't true from what I've seen. I see it was too difficult a leap for you to take the point of one post and apply to faulty logic in general. But then, you are a Flyers fan...

And you're the ******- bag that thinks Brendan Witt is a #1 defenseman.

S L mentions that he thinks Elias isn't as physical or as good defensively as Doan and of course, out pops borro to the rescue of a Caps player!

I personally have better things to do than waste my time on the ultra-homer/***** of HFBoards.

 

[borro]

And you're the ******- bag that thinks Brendan Witt is a #1 defenseman.

You are excellent at misrepresenting. After the firesale, he was our #1. Too difficult a concept for you.

S L mentions that he thinks Elias isn't as physical or as good defensively as Doan and of course, out pops borro to the rescue of a Caps player!

He mentions it in a thread where he makes a claim about Elias that Epsilon disputes as incorrect. Borro sees it as an opportunity to say..."You know what, it is exactly that kind of unfounded claim that alot of people make about Semin." These is more to be said about Semin's game just as Epsilon pointed out there was more to Elias' game. Excuse me for engaging my brain.


I personally have better things to do than waste my time on the ultra-homer/***** of HFBoards.

Yeah like looking in a mirror? If you don't want to discuss you don't have to. You clearly have no clue about Semin's game, at least not that has been brought to light.

How many times have you seen Semin?

 

[borro]

And you're the ******- bag that thinks Brendan Witt is a #1 defenseman.

S L mentions that he thinks Elias isn't as physical or as good defensively as Doan and of course, out pops borro to the rescue of a Caps player!

I personally have better things to do than waste my time on the ultra-homer/***** of HFBoards.

I like Witt's game alot more then others. I just don't cater to popular opinion like SOME do. I am capable of making my own. Just like all the *****-bag's who claimed Oates would only bring a 3rd. I am wrong for even mentioning that though I am told. It will happen again if Witt is traded. He would bring far more than many here believe. That is my opinion. I have given lots of good reasons for my opinion. Maybe I should be like all the other sheep here and follow the shepherd.

HF-Home of Isbister worship. Check out the prospect threads and tell me how many times defenseman are rated solely by how many points they have? DOH! Is this all that matters? To stat following sheep it is.

 

[borro]

You could equally say Horton made the NHL a full year younger than Semin and equalled Semin's production despite Alex having an extra year of development under his belt.

And I've already said Horton's been knocked down a peg in my eyes because of his injuries, I'm not sure what else you expect of me.

I'll give you credit for that! You did at least admit that. I hope you see what I am saying about Semin. There is more that Horton can bring to the table if you are looking for a Power Forward. He has some questions too. Semin looks to have the potential to be an elite scorer. That is not his whole game though. He brings a bit of chippiness too.