Selke trophy - top fives (1978 to 2023)

DisgruntledGoat*

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Honestly, he just needs a 2nd half of his career exactly like his first half (obviously not a guarantee especially without Chara), and I'd consider Bergeron up there. The guy just flat out owns whatever center he's put against.

Couldn't much the same argument be made for Toews then?
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Couldn't much the same argument be made for Toews then?

Toews is a better all-round player because of his offense, but does anyone really think he's on the same level as Bergeron in terms of pure defense?

Back to the topic (Selke voting):

I see Toews getting an awful lot of Selke votes from voters who prefer to vote for two-way players over more purely defensive ones. Basically, if he has an off-year offensively, I don't see him getting many votes. While Bergeron would still get votes regardless of his point totals (but probably wouldn't get nearly as many in an off-year offensively).

Edit: To add to what I've said, these are Bergeron's last 3 Selke finishes: 1st by a landslide, close 2nd, 1st by a landslide. Here are Toews: 6th, 1st by narrow margin, 3rd.
 

DisgruntledGoat*

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Toews is a better all-round player because of his offense, but does anyone really think he's on the same level as Bergeron in terms of pure defense?

I see Toews getting an awful lot of Selke votes from voters who prefer to vote for two-way players over more purely defensive ones. Basically, if he has an off-year offensively, I don't see him getting many votes. While Bergeron would still get votes regardless of his point totals (but probably wouldn't get nearly as many in an off-year offensively).

I think Bergeron is better at classic defense. Positioning, reading plays in his own zone, etc.

But Toews is no slouch, and I think he's the best forechecking center in the game right now. Maybe the best since Forsberg. That and his physical play bring a lot of defensive value.

I actually think Toews may be a little underrated defensively. Every time he goes against a Zetterberg or a Kopitar in the playoffs, people are quick to say he got shut down if he doesn't score, but it doesn't get mentioned that neither do the other guys. Seems like with Toews, the best you can hope for is a saw-off with your top center.

I haven't given 'Toews vs Bergeron defensively' much thought but maybe I will in the future. I can't see one being too far ahead of the other, though.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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I think Bergeron is better at classic defense. Positioning, reading plays in his own zone, etc.

But Toews is no slouch, and I think he's the best forechecking center in the game right now. Maybe the best since Forsberg. That and his physical play bring a lot of defensive value.

I actually think Toews may be a little underrated defensively. Every time he goes against a Zetterberg or a Kopitar in the playoffs, people are quick to say he got shut down if he doesn't score, but it doesn't get mentioned that neither do the other guys. Seems like with Toews, the best you can hope for is a saw-off with your top center.

I haven't given 'Toews vs Bergeron defensively' much thought but maybe I will in the future. I can't see one being too far ahead of the other, though.

Not that it's the be-all end-all, but Bergeron is also much better than Toews (and basically everyone else) at driving shot differential (Corsi), and I think that it's becoming more and more important for the writers who vote on things like the Selke.

It also helps that Bergeron is, by far, the best defensive forward in the Eastern Conference, while Toews has more competition out west.
 

BenchBrawl

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Toews is a better all-round player because of his offense, but does anyone really think he's on the same level as Bergeron in terms of pure defense?

Back to the topic (Selke voting):

I see Toews getting an awful lot of Selke votes from voters who prefer to vote for two-way players over more purely defensive ones. Basically, if he has an off-year offensively, I don't see him getting many votes. While Bergeron would still get votes regardless of his point totals (but probably wouldn't get nearly as many in an off-year offensively).

Edit: To add to what I've said, these are Bergeron's last 3 Selke finishes: 1st by a landslide, close 2nd, 1st by a landslide. Here are Toews: 6th, 1st by narrow margin, 3rd.

Couldn't agree more with this post.This is like the philosophy that "offense is the best defense".Since the award is given to the best defensive player, voters mostly judge defensive skills, but they insert a x amount of value on offense in their judgement because it seems they believe offensive skills are also defensive skills.

I think this is none-sense.And yes, I understand that when you're in the offensive zone the other team can't score.But the whole context of the award is to celebrate pure defensive skills.I think those who consider offense in their selke voting have a too large definition of defense.

I would define "selke" defense as any play that makes the other team struggle to score AND isn't directly aimed at creating an opportunity for your team to score.
 
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silkyjohnson50

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Jan 10, 2007
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Honestly, he just needs a 2nd half of his career exactly like his first half (obviously not a guarantee especially without Chara), and I'd consider Bergeron up there. The guy just flat out owns whatever center he's put against.

Although the sample size have been very small due to them being in separate conferences prior to last season, Datsyuk has seemingly always had really good games against Boston in recent years - games where they are often matched up head-to-head.

Truthfully, I wish we got to see Bergeron play the guys in the West more often. I'd argue the majority of elite defensive, 2-way centers have played in the West this era. Datsyuk, Toews, Kesler, Zetterberg, Kopitar, Backes, even a guy like Mikko Koivu.
 

silkyjohnson50

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Jan 10, 2007
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Couldn't agree more with this post.This is like the philosophy that "offense is the best defense".Since the award is given to the best defensive player, voters mostly judge defensive skills, but they insert a x amount of value on offense in their judgement because it seems they believe offensive skills are also defensive skills.

I think this is none-sense.And yes, I understand that when you're in the offensive zone the other team can't score.But the whole context of the award is to celebrate pure defensive skills.I think those who consider offense in their selke voting have a too large definition of defense.

I would define "selke" defense as any play that makes the other team struggle to score AND isn't directly aimed at creating an opportunity for your team to score.

Offense and defense aren't completely separated though. They're often one in each other. Take for instance 50/50 puck battles. Do you count that as an offensive play or a defensive play? You can make offensive plays in all 3 zones. Likewise, you can make defensive plays in all 3 zones. The flow of the game makes offense and defense a constantly intertwining thing.

Isn't winging board and puck battles, making smart plays with the puck, and controlling the flow of the game making it harder for the other team to score?

The majority of elite defensive guys this day and age have 2-way games. That's part of the reason why they're so difficult to play against and why many coaches like using them against opposition top lines rather than 3rd/4th line grinding type that may have been more prevalent in the past.

I don't think it's a complete coincidence that every Cup winner since the lockout has had a Selke level center. And many teams that lost in the Finals also had Selke level centers. That's why I rate 2-way centers so highly. Being able to play against anybody and still control the ice is absolutely enormous in hockey.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Offense and defense aren't completely separated though. They're often one in each other. Take for instance 50/50 puck battles. Do you count that as an offensive play or a defensive play? You can make offensive plays in all 3 zones. Likewise, you can make defensive plays in all 3 zones. The flow of the game makes offense and defense a constantly intertwining thing.

Isn't winging board and puck battles, making smart plays with the puck, and controlling the flow of the game making it harder for the other team to score?

The majority of elite defensive guys this day and age have 2-way games. That's part of the reason why they're so difficult to play against and why many coaches like using them against opposition top lines rather than 3rd/4th line grinding type that may have been more prevalent in the past.

I don't think it's a complete coincidence that every Cup winner since the lockout has had a Selke level center. And many teams that lost in the Finals also had Selke level centers. That's why I rate 2-way centers so highly. Being able to play against anybody and still control the ice is absolutely enormous in hockey.

I guess you're counting Sami Pahlssen and Jordan Staal as "Selke level centers?"
 

kmad

riot survivor
Jun 16, 2003
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Truthfully, I wish we got to see Bergeron play the guys in the West more often. I'd argue the majority of elite defensive, 2-way centers have played in the West this era. Datsyuk, Toews, Kesler, Zetterberg, Kopitar, Backes, even a guy like Mikko Koivu.

I think it's interesting how the East and West conferences have split, kind of like in baseball. The West is a plodding, tough, defensive chess game whereas the East is a north-south exciting scorefest.

I wonder what made this happen. I know it's the lack of interconference play that led for the disparate styles to develop, but why one style in one league and another in the other?
 

struckbyaparkedcar

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Mar 1, 2008
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They were each finalists once and Pahlsson's 07 was pretty deserving.

And I'd liken Toews/Bergeron to Sherman/Revis/Peterson in the NFL. Like Sherman blanking one side of the field instead of matching up 100% against top receivers, the Blackhawks get so much value at ES from the Toews-Keith unit regardless of getting slightly easier matchups (and lapped the league when Toews won the Selke), that I don't so much mind rewarding their corerstone pieces in spite of usage.
 

DisgruntledGoat*

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I think it's interesting how the East and West conferences have split, kind of like in baseball. The West is a plodding, tough, defensive chess game whereas the East is a north-south exciting scorefest.

I wonder what made this happen. I know it's the lack of interconference play that led for the disparate styles to develop, but why one style in one league and another in the other?

The really weird thing is about 15 years ago, the conferences were the opposite of what they are now.
 

Hawkey Town 18

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I think I posted this in another thread but I'll say it again...for what it's worth, Babcock chose Toews over Bergeron to match up against Team Canada's opponents' top lines in this last Olympics.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Which raises another question, why would he have one of the most effective centres in the game playing RW?

Because he had too many centers and not all of them could play wing? Because Toews is a better overall player (and center) than Bergeron even if not (quite) as strong defensively?
 
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Ishdul

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Jan 20, 2007
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They were also taken with playing Bergeron together with Crosby, and they werent moving Crosby to wing.
 

Hockey Outsider

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Updated for 2015. A few significant changes:

- Pavel Datsyuk now has the second best Selke voting record (behind only Carbonneau).
- Bergeron continues to climb and is now just behind Lehtinen, in 6th place.
- Toews and Backes continue to move up, while Kopitar joined the list.
 
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Iceman

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Would love to see top 10 finishes like that. There are plenty of players in that range who were considered great defensive players but nominations of something like 3, 6, 6, 7, 8, 8, 10 (made up numbers).
 

Hockey Outsider

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Would love to see top 10 finishes like that. There are plenty of players in that range who were considered great defensive players but nominations of something like 3, 6, 6, 7, 8, 8, 10 (made up numbers).

Unfortunately I don't have a full set of data for this (yet). It's on my to-do list, but would anybody else have that?
 

Hockey Outsider

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Updated for 2016:

Patrice Bergeron (2nd) now has the second-best Selke trophy voting record dating back to the inception of the award (1978). Only Bob Gainey won more trophies, and only Guy Carbonneau has more seasons in the top five.

Anze Kopitar won the Selke this year. He now has a (slightly) better voting record than Ron Francis, Steve Yzerman and Jari Kurri.

Ryan Kesler (3rd) earned his fifth season in the top five, and Jonathan Toews (4th) now has six seasons.

Joe Thornton (5th) has his first top five (or top ten) finish for the award.
 

Hockey Outsider

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Update for 2017:

Patrice Bergeron is in the midst of a remarkable run. He now has eight consecutive seasons in the top five for the Selke trophy, including four victories in six years. He's tied with Bob Gainey for most Selke trophy victories ever, and is behind only Guy Carbonneau for most years in the top five.

Ryan Kesler was runner-up. He now has six years in the top five.

Miko Koivu finished third. He previously finished 4th (and earned multiple votes in many other seasons, but never enough to crack the top five).

Mikael Backlund was fourth. As far as I can tell, he never received a single Selke vote prior to this season.

Jonathan Toews placed fifth. His Selke voting record is now roughly on par with Mike Peca and Craig Ramsay's.
 

Hockey Outsider

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This thread (specifically the first post) has been updated after the data migration on HFBoards. Let me know if you see any errors/problems.
 

Hockey Outsider

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This thread has been updated for 2018.

Patrice Bergeron has placed in the top five for the 9th time in his career, tying Guy Carbonneau for the all-time record. He placed in the top three for the 7th time - an all-time record.

Anze Kopitar won the trophy, and now has five seasons in the top five (on par with Fedorov and Madden).

Mikko Koivu placed in the top five for the third time in his career (so he joins this list).

Sean Couturier and Aleksander Barkov both placed in the top five for the first time in their careers.
 

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