Dark Shadows
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While Manning may have dominated the NFL in 2003 and 2004, his 2008 MVP award came in a year when he had a lower passer rating, 7 fewer TDs, and 1000 fewer yards than Drew Brees. Manning finished 5th-6th in each category, but his team won games, so Manning = MVP.
In his 2 MVP seasons Lebron James was outscored by Dwyane Wade and Kevin Durant. His team was the equivalent of the President's Trophy-winner at the end of each season, so he won the MVP.
Steve Nash won MVP in 2005 when the Suns were the best team in the regular season. In 2006 the Suns may not have been the best regular season team, but they were second in the West with 54 wins, after Nash managed to keep the run-and-gun offense going even though the 2nd best player on the team (Amare Stoudemire) missed almost the entire season. Nash led the league in assists both years, and is/was a clutch free throw shooter. Nash nearly won it again in 2007, but the award went to the best player on the best team - Nowitzki in Dallas.
I think MVP voters are impressed by players who win. Michael Jordan was better at his sport than Lebron and Manning are at theirs, and even Jordan never won the MVP award on a team that didn't win at least 50 games.
Steve nash was always a defensive liability, besides assists, the rest of his game is rather mediocre, maybe thats why hes never made it to the finals. From 2005-2007, Tim Duncan had a better player eficiency rating than nash, he averaged more points, rebounds, was 10X better defensively, and come playoff time Duncan showed who was truly better. Bill Simmons doesn't think very highly of nash's mvps.
Last year, Lebron's overall stats dwarfed durant's.
In the last 15 years, the nhl focuses more on which player scores the most points. In 2002, iginla nearly won the hart and his team didnt even make the playoffs. In 2008 and 2009, Datsyuk had a much better two way game than ovechkin, but since ovechkin put up 12 more points, he got the harts.
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You know, Steve Nash was pretty good too, it's just a little ridiculous that people thought he was better than Shaq, Kobe or Dirk. In the same way, it's a ridiculous that people thought that Messier was better than Lemieux and Bourque.
Oh good lord.
Messier's performance in both of those seasons were outstanding.
Heh. Simmons. I'm sure he doesn't think too highly of Peyton Manning's MVP awards either.
Perhaps Nash's defensive play has kept Phoenix from the Finals, but I believe far more people would agree that Phoenix has lost in the playoffs due to the lack of a big man. Nash routinely gets the better of Tony Parker, whether Phoenix wins or loses against San Antonio. Of course, the MVP is a regular season award and Phoenix's W-L record would indicate that Nash's offense more than compensates for his defense during the season.
(And so long as we go by what Bill Simmons thinks, Simmons wrote that Steve Nash should have won the MVP award in 2007, and the Suns should have beaten the Spurs in 2007 if not for Suns players being questionably removed/suspended.)
Durant: 30.1 PPG, 7.6 RPG, 2.8 APG, 1.4 SPG, 1.0 BPG
James: 29.7 PPG, 7.4 RPG, 8.6 APG, 1.6 SPG, 1.0 BPG
LBJ's assists "dwarf" Durant's assists. Beyond that, I don't see how James can dwarf Durant, particularly in categories where his numbers are lower. And while James once made it to the Finals by sneaking through the lowly Eastern Conference, he has won just as many Finals games as Nash and Durant have, and they haven't been there.
And by picking the last 15 years, you have selected a time frame where defenseman and goaltenders have won 4 of 14 MVP awards, which is fairly high for the Hart.
For the players you mentioned...
2005 NBA Net +/-
(On Court Team Plus Minus) - (Off-Court Team Plus Minus)
Nowitzki 15.3
Nash 15.0
O'Neal 6.8
Bryant 2.8
This is measured in net points per 100 possessions, and doesn't take into account the fast pace of Phoenix's "seven seconds or less" offense. Or the fact that through March 15th 2005 (can't find end of year stat
) Nash's Clutch PER (4th quarter with the lead/deficit 5 points or less) was a league-leading 55.1. (Nowitzki - 44.7, O'Neal - 26.0, Bryant - 25.3)In Phoenix, the 29-win Suns who missed the playoffs a year before, became a 61-win #1 seed. It also helped that everyone seemed to notice that Phoenix was 60-15 with Nash, and went 1-5 without him.
Kyle McMahon
Registered User
- May 10, 2006
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No, I don't agree. There were definitely seasons during Selanne's prime where he was better Jagr... and most definitely where he was better than Hasek! I still think dominik Hasek is number 1 all time when he is on, which is a lot.
Selanne should have won the Pearson in 97' , Hasek still would have had the Hart+ Vezina in 97... even in 1999 when Jagr won all three... had they not introduced the Rocket Richard trophy that year (which Selanne won) I think he would have probably won the pearson, considering who infrequently players win all three... Hart+Art Ross+ Pearson.
from 92/93-1999 who scored more goals than Selanne? ... no one, but all he has to show for it is the Rockey in 99'? I think it's complete crap Selanne only has a Calder + one Rocket Richard for how much he dominated the league in the 1990's.
Also, I think Selanne probably should have got at least the Pearson over Crosby in 2007. (by far leading scorer on a team 3 points away from the Presidents trophy, and eventual cup winner.. hell you could even argue for the Hart that season. (since playoffs aren't supposed to be taken into account, right) this is basically the argument used for why Messier won the Hart in 1992... except his team did win the Presidents trophy...
Regardless, Selanne's 2007 season is very comparable to the Pearson win / Hart win of Messier in 1992, where Messier was 24 points behind the Art Ross winner Mario (who in my opinion.. his 92' season getting 131 points in 64 games is way more impressive than Sid getting 120 in 79) except the only difference is that Selanne didn't even take one piece of hardware home.
I'm not trying to cut down Messier at all, he was a great player... but I think his "leadership" is a tad over-exaggerated... I can't argue that Selanne should have won the Art Rossbecause he never did... but he sure as hell could have at least won a single Hart, and especially a single Pearson.
yes, I was a live in 1992, but a very small child, stat's speak for themselves. If Mario can loose out on the Hart AND pearson that year, while completely outperforming Messier on the scoresheet... Selanne could have definitely had 1 Hart or Pearson over the years, especially in 2007.
1st bold: If you're going to seriously suggest that in 2007 Selanne was a better player than Sidney Crosby, clearly the discussion is not worth pursuing further.
2nd bold: I'm of the opinion that a player's on-ice play is what does the talking as opposed to numbers on a piece of paper, so I think we can cite irreconcilable differences here and call it a day.
Heh. Simmons. I'm sure he doesn't think too highly of Peyton Manning's MVP awards either.
Perhaps Nash's defensive play has kept Phoenix from the Finals, but I believe far more people would agree that Phoenix has lost in the playoffs due to the lack of a big man. Nash routinely gets the better of Tony Parker, whether Phoenix wins or loses against San Antonio. Of course, the MVP is a regular season award and Phoenix's W-L record would indicate that Nash's offense more than compensates for his defense during the season.
(And so long as we go by what Bill Simmons thinks, Simmons wrote that Steve Nash should have won the MVP award in 2007, and the Suns should have beaten the Spurs in 2007 if not for Suns players being questionably removed/suspended.)
Durant: 30.1 PPG, 7.6 RPG, 2.8 APG, 1.4 SPG, 1.0 BPG
James: 29.7 PPG, 7.4 RPG, 8.6 APG, 1.6 SPG, 1.0 BPG
LBJ's assists "dwarf" Durant's assists. Beyond that, I don't see how James can dwarf Durant, particularly in categories where his numbers are lower. And while James once made it to the Finals by sneaking through the lowly Eastern Conference, he has won just as many Finals games as Nash and Durant have, and they haven't been there.
And by picking the last 15 years, you have selected a time frame where defenseman and goaltenders have won 4 of 14 MVP awards, which is fairly high for the Hart.
For the players you mentioned...
2005 NBA Net +/-
(On Court Team Plus Minus) - (Off-Court Team Plus Minus)
Nowitzki 15.3
Nash 15.0
O'Neal 6.8
Bryant 2.8
This is measured in net points per 100 possessions, and doesn't take into account the fast pace of Phoenix's "seven seconds or less" offense. Or the fact that through March 15th 2005 (can't find end of year stat
In Phoenix, the 29-win Suns who missed the playoffs a year before, became a 61-win #1 seed. It also helped that everyone seemed to notice that Phoenix was 60-15 with Nash, and went 1-5 without him.
1. For comparing lebron and durant, I combine ppg, apg and rpg and lebron comes out ahead very clearly. I also look at PER, another category where lebron was superior, and lebron was also a much better defender.
2. I thought Steve Nash could have been mvp in 2007. However, in 2005 Shaq made a bigger impact on his teams win/loss record by simply comparing how lakers/heat did in 2004 and 2005 respectively, he also had superior overall stats than steve nash. Then again this is nothing new, shaq was robbed of many mvps. How can a player lead the league in PER nearly every year and only get 1 mvp?
3. Not only did Tim Duncan have an excellent PER from 2005 to 2007, he also lead the league in 'defensive rating' every year from that time span and was a consistent candidate for defensive player of the year. Steve Nash was the best point guard from 2005 to 2007, but he was never better than duncan, not even close.
Fedorov, Lindros, Jagr, Lemeux and Hasek all had better mvp seasons than messier.
Slapshooter
Registered User
- Apr 25, 2007
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Messier played a better two way game than prime lindros and fedorov, wow thats news to me. Team success is also based on supporting cast, lindros wishes he had the teams that mesier did.
Slapshooter
Registered User
- Apr 25, 2007
- 717
- 2
I did not say that and the whole issue is rather off topic. There is already a very recent thread called "Messier overrated?":
http://hfboards.ca/showthread.php?t=870332.
WHy has this thread devolved into a discussion on the merits of Steve Nash's MVP seasons? Last time I checked there is a basketball thread where you can talk about this. Let's stick to the subject at hand.....
I like Teemu and if he can finish strong with 85-90 points I believe he has a good chance to win the Lady Byng. I also think he should have made the second all-star team in 2006-2007. Why he didn't is beyond me.
you clearly think Messier was better than Gretzky and Lemieux in 1992... so this discussion isn't not worth pursuing.
Selanne was the most important player in the Ducks that season... and they had just as good of a regular season as the Rangers in 1992, and ended up going allll the way in the playoffs.
without Selanne's performance in 2006/2007, Ducks don't go into the playoffs as number 3 seed, and might win the cup. what more do you want to prove that his performance was more important to his team, than Sids was in 2006/2007.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Are you still comparing Messier's 1992, when he was 5th in scoring while playing a compete game with Selanne's 2007, when he was 11th in scoring while playing an offense-only game?
In 2007, Crosby had 120 points as the Penguins made the playoffs for the first time in a long time, with home ice advantage in the first round, to boot. Malkin was second on the Penguins with 85 points, not exactly close. While Gonchar certainly helped Crosby, he wasn't exactly Pronger/Niedermayer back there.
The homer in me says that Brodeur should have won it (I believe the finalists were Crosby, Brodeur, and Luongo). But if they were giving it to a forward, I don't see how you can argue with Crosby.
vadim sharifijanov
Registered User
- Oct 10, 2007
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ha ha. the homer in me would have given it to luongo. that canucks team couldn't score to save its life.
i didn't realize selanne is scoring at over a PPG pace while still playing most of his team's games this year. that is very impressive. not nearly as impressive as '92 messier of course, but credit where credit is due. i might throw him another masterton.
Sky04
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- Jan 8, 2009
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sadly, I doubt that.
St.louis has 8 more games played, 13 more points and 16 less penalty minutes.
The Hart Trophy is not suppose to be about who is the best player in the NHL. It is given to the one who is considered more valuable to his team. Mark Messier was never better then Gretzky or Lemieux. Even when Messier won the Conn Smyth in 1984 he wasn't better then Gretzky he was just deemed to be more valuable.
You might disagree with Messier being a great player or being up there with the the greatest players to ever play the game. But in 1992 Mark Messier went to the Rangers and just drove them with his talent and winning attitude to the best team in the regular season. That is why he won the Hart not because he was the best player in the NHL.
Of course you would be hard press to see Messier's value for you feel Selanne was the best player in 2007. Better then Crosby that is so funny. Selanne wasn't even the best player on the Ducks team. If each team gave out their Hart Trophy in 2007 it would have went to either Neidermayer or Pronger. They were the reason that the Ducks were so good and composed. Selanne was an important part of the Ducks in the regualr season and pretty important too in the playoffs. But he was never worthy of the Hart Trophy. What Selanne won for awards were just and that is it. It doesn't diminish his career or make him any less better. But Selanne was never the best player in the NHL in any year.
People are making Selanne out to be so much better then he was. One day he will be a Hockey Hall of Famer which means that he will be considered one of the greatest players to ever play the game. But let's not get carried away here. He is no Lemieux or Messier he is not even in the Guy Lafleur category. He was just very very good to great that is it.
Selanne had 25 PPG's, and 10 game winners, first in both categories.
it's a shame he couldn't have got more shots off that season. I'd say Selanne was player number 1 for Anaheims success in scoring the goals to win that many games.
Neids and Pronger were basically equally important, Selanne's consistent offensive totals ensured they made the playoffs in a high spot. Defence wins playoffs, offence wins the regular season. but obviously, your dman ultimately decide if you win the game or lose.
it's a shame he couldn't have got more shots off that season. I'd say Selanne was player number 1 for Anaheims success in scoring the goals to win that many games.
Neids and Pronger were basically equally important, Selanne's consistent offensive totals ensured they made the playoffs in a high spot. Defence wins playoffs, offence wins the regular season. but obviously, your dman ultimately decide if you win the game or lose.
Slapshooter
Registered User
- Apr 25, 2007
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IIRC Selanne had his thumb broken in 2007 playoff series against Vancouver. After that he could not take a proper wrister nor a slapshot during the remaining playoff run. Selanne had to rely on light snappers and backhanders, which obviously hurt his 07 playoff stats.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
The fact that he had the most PP goals but not the most goals overall hints at him being a PP specialist... which, at this point in his career, he is. A useful producer, but not even the most valuable player on his own team.
He gets the 5th-most icetime on his team among forwards.
He is just 7th on the team with 6 ESG.
jepjepjoo
Registered User
- Dec 31, 2002
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He is 9th in ES TOI with 689:50. TOI/G is useless since he has missed games. He is 3rd in even strength points with 29pts despite playing only the 9th most.
Ryan-Getzlaf-Perry
Blake-Koivu-Selanne
ES TOI per ES point:
Selanne 23.76min
Ryan 24.42min
Perry 25.49min
Getzlaf 27.33min
Koivu 41.7min
Blake 42.24min
Pretty good for a PP specialist playing with lesser talent.
This was just a response to Selanne being a PP specialist. There's no way he should win Pearson this season.
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yeah, I'm under no illusion that Selanne would even be top 10 in consideration for the Lindsay right now... but if he managed to have a 95-100pt season, somehow... it wouldn't be totally out of the question. Still he should at least be considered for the Byng if he keeps his PM under 35 minutes... he's a very gentlemanly player, who I haven't seen take a "dirty penalty" in a quite a long time.
He's been assisting A LOT this season, and the more PP's Anaheim is awarded, the bigger chance he has of cracking 30 goals this season.
anyways, all this talk about Selanne never being the best player in the NHL is definitely up for debate. To me the demise of the Jets, and his trade to the Ducks ensured his popularity and rank among Canadian hockey fans would decline, simply because he was not on a popular, and especially not a Canadian team.
If the Jets stayed in Winnipeg, or Selanne gets traded to Vancouver, or Montreal, or really any established and popular Canadian or American club... and he continues to be one of the most celebrated players in the NHL... which he most definitely was in his Winnipeg days. I'm totally affected by growing up in Winnipeg, with Selanne as the Jets star player... but to go on like debating he wasn't ever the top player in the NHL during the 1990's as if its a 100% fact, is just silly.
He's been assisting A LOT this season, and the more PP's Anaheim is awarded, the bigger chance he has of cracking 30 goals this season.
anyways, all this talk about Selanne never being the best player in the NHL is definitely up for debate. To me the demise of the Jets, and his trade to the Ducks ensured his popularity and rank among Canadian hockey fans would decline, simply because he was not on a popular, and especially not a Canadian team.
If the Jets stayed in Winnipeg, or Selanne gets traded to Vancouver, or Montreal, or really any established and popular Canadian or American club... and he continues to be one of the most celebrated players in the NHL... which he most definitely was in his Winnipeg days. I'm totally affected by growing up in Winnipeg, with Selanne as the Jets star player... but to go on like debating he wasn't ever the top player in the NHL during the 1990's as if its a 100% fact, is just silly.
SidGenoMario
Registered User
Well not exactly. If someone 60 years old would get 50 pts in the NHL, he might not be the best, but IMO that would be quite outstanding.
