Sedin comparables

[Jyrki21]

TBH Henrik was a slow puck distributor that couldn't shoot. Daniel was a slow winger with an above average shot. I honestly think that individually they were middle six forwards.

Maybe one could be forgiven for thinking this before Henrik absolutely went off in 2009-10 when Daniel was out injured. I honestly think that stretch is why he won the Hart.

 

[racerjoe]

Middle 6 is a bit absurd. As I recall, Henrik was still close to a PPG player when Daniel was injured, playing with Burrows and I think either Hansen or Samuelsson.

In the 2009-10 season I think it was the year Daniel missed 20 games, and Hank scored 112 pts, was the MVP. Either twin being a middle six forward is talk as bad as this thread and the few that popped up like it.

 

[Shareefruck]

In the 2009-10 season I think it was the year Daniel missed 20 games, and Hank scored 112 pts, was the MVP. Either twin being a middle six forward is talk as bad as this thread and the few that popped up like it.

That's probably the year I'm referring to. To be clear, he definitely didn't score anything close to a 112 point pace while away from Daniel that year, of course. I think he was near-PPG without Daniel and then with Daniel back, had to score at greater than a 112 point pace in order to end up with that number.

 

[MS]

In the 2009-10 season I think it was the year Daniel missed 20 games, and Hank scored 112 pts, was the MVP. Either twin being a middle six forward is talk as bad as this thread and the few that popped up like it.

That's probably the year I'm referring to. To be clear, he definitely didn't score anything close to a 112 point pace while away from Daniel that year, of course. I think he was near-PPG without Daniel and then with Daniel back, had to score at greater than a 112 point pace in order to end up with that number.

Henrik went 10-8-18 in the 18 games Daniel missed in October-November of 2009.

 

[82Ninety42011]

No idea but they had eyes on back of helmet for each other. Just magic together and they played very well with others to.

 

[Kryten]

When Daniel broke his foot and missed 18 games Henrik went 10g 8a over that span including his first hat trick
edit damn you MS

 

[RobertKron]

Middle 6 is a bit absurd. As I recall, Henrik was still close to a PPG player when Daniel was injured, playing with Burrows and I think either Hansen or Samuelsson.

Yeah, the Twins' elite twinniness (twinosity?) has really caused people to underrate them very badly as individual players.

 

[iceburg]

I’m obviously in the minority by a big margin here. Interestingly after I called them elite! Middle 6 maybe was a little harsh but the point is they were elite because they played with each other. They are hall of famers because of it. Absent playing with each other they would be at least a tier down.
To cite a point per game 18 game stretch for Henrik during the peak of his career doesn’t convince me otherwise.
Interested to know what others think the production bump was for them because they played with each other their entire careers? 0%, 10%, 20%

As it is Henrik was about a 0.8 point per game player. Without Daniel would he be 0.7 point per game? Where does that put him all time?

Once again I’m in the weird position of arguing against a player I think was elite…

 

[Hit the post]

Middle 6 is a bit absurd. As I recall, Henrik was still close to a PPG player when Daniel was injured, playing with Burrows and I think either Hansen or Samuelsson.

But 'unique points' man.

 

[RobertKron]

I’m obviously in the minority by a big margin here. Interestingly after I called them elite! Middle 6 maybe was a little harsh but the point is they were elite because they played with each other. They are hall of famers because of it. Absent playing with each other they would be at least a tier down.
To cite a point per game 18 game stretch for Henrik during the peak of his career doesn’t convince me otherwise.
Interested to know what others think the production bump was for them because they played with each other their entire careers? 0%, 10%, 20%

As it is Henrik was about a 0.8 point per game player. Without Daniel would he be 0.7 point per game? Where does that put him all time?

Once again I’m in the weird position of arguing against a player I think was elite…

I mean, yeah, if you take away their other top-end linemate, most top-end players are going to suffer. I don't think anyone is arguing that they're the greatest of all time or anything, but even separate they're likely both still high-end first liners.

 

[vancityluongo]

idk, i mean people compared henrik to other elite playmaking centers like oates or turgeon or thornton, and daniel to cerebral wingers who could pass and shoot like kariya or elias. but they were quite unique in terms of the full package of what they could individually do as players and how they played. a lot of the comparisons in this thread are good; jagr, francis, marc savard.

had they been drafted separately, i don't think either makes the HHOF but i think henrik is basically an 800 point player that finishes with a couple top-3 assists seasons. daniel is a 700 point player with a 40 goal season or two, but not at a richard or art ross level.

of current players, i feel like rnh and draisaitl are what would happen if you sucked a bunch of talent out of henrik and gave it to daniel (the angrier of the two), respectively.

 

[Shareefruck]

But 'unique points' man.

I mean, the argument below is getting pretty close to the unique points argument.

I’m obviously in the minority by a big margin here. Interestingly after I called them elite! Middle 6 maybe was a little harsh but the point is they were elite because they played with each other. They are hall of famers because of it. Absent playing with each other they would be at least a tier down.
To cite a point per game 18 game stretch for Henrik during the peak of his career doesn’t convince me otherwise.
Interested to know what others think the production bump was for them because they played with each other their entire careers? 0%, 10%, 20%

As it is Henrik was about a 0.8 point per game player. Without Daniel would he be 0.7 point per game? Where does that put him all time?

Once again I’m in the weird position of arguing against a player I think was elite…

I don't think there's a superstar player out there whose production doesn't get a massive bump from playing with another superstar-caliber player. Everyone would be a tier down playing only with less dynamic supporting players. I don't see the evidence that this is more of the case with the Sedins than anybody else. People seem to just assume this because of their chemistry/twinness, despite the only real sample sizes that we have suggesting otherwise (small as they may be).

 

[iceburg]

I mean, the argument below is getting pretty close to the unique points argument.

I don't think there's a superstar player out there whose production doesn't get a massive bump from playing with another superstar-caliber player. Everyone would be a tier down playing only with less dynamic supporting players. I don't see the evidence that this is more of the case with the Sedins than anybody else. People seem to just assume this because of their chemistry/twinness, despite the only real sample sizes that we have suggesting otherwise (small as they may be).

I get your point that every player benefits from playing with other good players. But, is your position that they had no added benefit from playing their entire lives with each other and thinking the game very similarly?

 

[Shareefruck]

I get your point that every player benefits from playing with other good players. But, is your position that they had no added benefit from playing their entire lives with each other and thinking the game very similarly?

It's highly ambiguous exactly how much of an effect that had, and potentially may be blown out of proportion. While no doubt they have incredible chemistry and it's a great anecdotal story, there's really no evidence to support that their production relied on them "growing up together" any more than any other hall of famer who regularly sparked chemistry with other great linemates that fit them like a glove. Essentially, we know that they had a security blanket playing with each other, because it's a known commodity, but there's no reason to think that similar chemistry couldn't have sparked with anyone else. In fact, they were better than fine what little we did see of them individually, playing with linemates that not every hall of famer would have done similarly well with. (I would not expect PPG from most hall of famers playing with Burrows and Hansen/Samuelsson)

Does Paul Kariya deserve to be in the Hockey Hall of Fame any less simply because his peak years involved tremendous chemistry with Selanne? What's your opinion on Zetterberg and Datsyuk's career?

On top of that, since when did Hall of Fame status remotely have anything to do with career average PPG? What you end up accomplishing cumulatively, combined with how good you were your good years tend to dictate worth-- having additional less productive twilight years or development years that lower your average shouldn't lower your worthiness-- it's just icing.