Speculation: Secondary Scoring is non existent!

[Dragao6]

Gauthier and Engvall for starters here. 1 Goal and 1 assist each the last TWENTY games. Keefe kept Engvall on the Tavares line for almost 2 shifts and seen enough. Spezza and Kappy are in our bottom six and produce, Clifford adds jam and the rest are taking a pay cheque and doing nothing.

Certainly looks like these guys really don’t get the levity of the situation in our battle for accountability and playoff race with a good Florida team that was really good no so long ago. Florida getting hot and these guys adding nothing to team success is concerning.

Top Six carries this team! Maybe we need to ship some players to the Marlies to send a message. Its really annoying the lack of character these softies are providing

This isn't speculation....its fact

This team doesn't deserve the playoffs. And what's concerning to me is we got skilled guys but so obvious this team isn't going anywhere. If these are the type of players dubas is gonna continue to get then oh boy ... is our streak gonna continue for awhile

 

[yubbers]

Kadri has scored over 20 goals, 3 times out of 8 seasons, lets not act as if he was scoring more than he was. Kapanen and Johnsson both surpassed him last season while also being cheaper, which plays a factor in him being expendable. Johnsson not being in the line up has certainly impacted secondary scoring. Also, its not as if Kerfoot is an offensive black hole, the guy scored 19 goals and 43 points in his rookie season in 79 games, and had 15 goals and 42 points in 78 games last season, which was 2 points less than Kadri. Kerfoot has played hurt with a fractured jaw and played out of position as a winger, that's not exactly a recipe for success but he's still on pace for 34-35 points this season , which isn't that bad for a million less. But they're not comparable really, Kerfoot is more suited for the 3rd line, Kadri wasn't.

Also, Barrie has 39 points this season, which is 5 points less than what Kadri had last season. This crap with Barrie is getting tiresome, just because Babcock didn't know how to play him, doesn't mean he hasn't been pretty good offensively under Keefe. I mean, he's on pace for 58 points under him for a reason.

his lowing scoring season is 17

He's good for 20. Funny how you didn't mention 2 of those 3 were 30 goal seasons.

 

[Koolboss]

Kadri has scored over 20 goals, 3 times out of 8 seasons, lets not act as if he was scoring more than he was. Kapanen and Johnsson both surpassed him last season while also being cheaper, which plays a factor in him being expendable. Johnsson not being in the line up has certainly impacted secondary scoring. Also, its not as if Kerfoot is an offensive black hole, the guy scored 19 goals and 43 points in his rookie season in 79 games, and had 15 goals and 42 points in 78 games last season, which was 2 points less than Kadri. Kerfoot has played hurt with a fractured jaw and played out of position as a winger, that's not exactly a recipe for success but he's still on pace for 34-35 points this season , which isn't that bad for a million less. But they're not comparable really, Kerfoot is more suited for the 3rd line, Kadri wasn't.

Also, Barrie has 39 points this season, which is 5 points less than what Kadri had last season. This crap with Barrie is getting tiresome, just because Babcock didn't know how to play him, doesn't mean he hasn't been pretty good offensively under Keefe. I mean, he's on pace for 58 points under him for a reason.

Has the team improved?
NO
End of discussion
Nights

 

[Koolboss]

his lowing scoring season is 17

He's good for 20. Funny how you didn't mention 2 of those 3 were 30 goal seasons.

These are the type of poster that makes me sick to my stomach lol

 

[yubbers]

These are the type of poster that makes me sick to my stomach lol

I've been a Leafs fan a LONG time. I've never seen a GM that has diehard fans like this regardless of what happens.

It was a bad trade. Barrie will walk and Kerfoot is meh at best. Kadri for Kerfoot is a disaster any way you slice it. It's not even debatable at this point. Unless Barrie turns into Ray Bourque down the stretch it's a fail of epic proportions.

 

[Dragao6]

No secondary of primary offense lol

This team is just a mess

 

[Hockey Crazy]

Kerfoot: I fail to see any skill he has that can set him apart
Kapanen: great speed but dumb as nails
Engvall: started well but now looks like an AHL tweeter
Spezza: like him but he cant be our best bottom 6 guy
Clifford: plays a role and does it fine
Malgin: terrible hes a poor man's kerfoot.

 

[seanlinden]

Kerfoot: I fail to see any skill he has that can set him apart
Kapanen: great speed but dumb as nails
Engvall: started well but now looks like an AHL tweeter
Spezza: like him but he cant be our best bottom 6 guy
Clifford: plays a role and does it fine
Malgin: terrible hes a poor man's kerfoot.

This... it's frustrating too -- every time I look back at that Kadri deal, and how little Barrie has actually contributed here... that we gave him up for Alex Kerfoot, who seems to be the very definition of replacement-level, do-nothing, but screw up nothing type of player.

With Hyman, Nylander and Matthews' emergence this year, I can only imagine how good this team would have been with Nazem Kadri as the 3rd line C. He was a guy you could throw into matchup situations, he played with heart night in and night out, and with him on the top powerplay giving the Leafs the bodies to to put together 2 great units rather than 1 predictable one.

Andreas Johnsson will probably go this offseason in favour of cap space. Put me on the Kerfoot bandwagon as well. If the Leafs are going to spend $3.5m on a forward, it's gotta be a high quality 3rd line C who can at least cerment himself in that position. I wonder what Cody Eakin or Chris Tierney are looking at in terms of contracts.

 

[axlrose87]

This is what happens when you spend 40 mill on four players.

Give marner a few million more and he will fix it..... or turn the puck over

 

[Big Muddy]

Meant to say middle six wingers, my bad. Was thinking two of the four.

Its cool. I was thinking that I had a memory lapse. Kerfoot & Marner missed some time, but for several games versus half a season. I was drawing blanks after that.

 

[KuleminFan41]

What Barrie has done this year means little over the term of Kadri’s contract. Your argument dies as soon as Barrie leaves this off season. Kadri is twice the player Kerfoot is and thats the comparable bext season. I would keep Kadri every darn day of the week

I'd imagine if Barrie helps the Leafs get far in the playoffs or at least get past the 1st round, it would mean he helped the team far more in the playoffs than Kadri ever had. Especially when you consider Kadri has hardly played playoff hockey because of his stupid suspensions that didn't help the team. You're also going on the assumption that Barrie does indeed leave, while I think the likelihood of him leaving is greater today than it was in October, its still possible he stays. You nor I know what will happen July 1st.

Kerfoot is a good player and is better suited to the 3rd line role, which Kadri was pretty mediocre at and its clear who has the short term memory on these boards. Kadri simply doesn't fit this team and played himself out of a spot.

his lowing scoring season is 17

He's good for 20. Funny how you didn't mention 2 of those 3 were 30 goal seasons.

If you've paid attention to me in the past, I've always mentioned it. They should be considered anomalies because he's had 8 seasons under his belt and only managed to reach 30 twice . And remember, I'm not even counting the first 2 seasons he played 50 games combined, or else it would be 3 times in 9 seasons worth. Oh, and his lowest scoring season is technically 3, since you want to get further into detail considering you complained about my lack of detail.

Has the team improved?
NO
End of discussion
Nights

We wont really know until the playoffs now will we?

 

[Machinae]

I've been a Leafs fan a LONG time. I've never seen a GM that has diehard fans like this regardless of what happens.

It was a bad trade. Barrie will walk and Kerfoot is meh at best. Kadri for Kerfoot is a disaster any way you slice it. It's not even debatable at this point. Unless Barrie turns into Ray Bourque down the stretch it's a fail of epic proportions.

Kerfoot will still be on the Leafs while Kadri is making 7mil as a 4th line winger in a few seasons. I've been a Leafs fan a LONG time. I've never seen a player that has diehard fans like this regardless of how overrated he is.

 

[yubbers]

Kerfoot will still be on the Leafs while Kadri is making 7mil as a 4th line winger in a few seasons. I've been a Leafs fan a LONG time. I've never seen a player that has diehard fans like this regardless of how overrated he is.

Funny thing is I was never a big Kadri guy. Almost :p

 

[stanleyorbust]

Engvall has really cooled off after earning a spot. Hopefully he turns it up for the playoffs.

whats Malgin’s upside? Would be nice if he showed up on the scoresheet.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Kerfoot: I fail to see any skill he has that can set him apart
Kapanen: great speed but dumb as nails
Engvall: started well but now looks like an AHL tweeter
Spezza: like him but he cant be our best bottom 6 guy
Clifford: plays a role and does it fine
Malgin: terrible hes a poor man's kerfoot.

All of this.

As it stands right now, the bottom 6 does nothing particularly well. It's not overly physcial, there's no real "shutdown" line or really any players that excel defensively, and the one thing we were optimistic about, their offensive skill, hasn't really translated to tangible results. Now yes Mikheyev and Johnsson being injured for large portions of the season has kind of thrown the bottom six out of whack, but that's still no excuse for just how ineffective most of these guys have been.

Aside from the defence the bottom six also needs to be re-worked. Need to turn it into a defensively capable group that can provide some grit. I know that sounds very Burke-ian but clearly they don't have the personnel or the cap space to have the third line be a sort of second line after two 1a and 1b lines. Need this collection of players to provide something, and right now they just aren't.

 

[Blowfish]

This is what happens when you spend 40 mill on four players.

 

[CelticDruid]

Engvall has really cooled off after earning a spot. Hopefully he turns it up for the playoffs.

whats Malgin’s upside? Would be nice if he showed up on the scoresheet.

Can't reach the score sheet (MIA)

 

[Rogie]

First of all, we are the highest scoring team in the league. So, calling out our scoring, in any way, shape, or form, as a problem, is kind of odd. Our problem this season has mainly been goaltending & team defense, as well as injury troubles. So, citing scoring, and where it is or isn't coming from, as an issue, is strange.

A few things to consider though.
- Injuries: Currently our 1st & 3rd most productive defenders (Rielly & Muzzin) are out, and our 6th & 8th most productive forwards (Mikheyev & Johnsson). That has a hit on depth production.
- Relative Stats: Not a definitive measure of depth scoring, but only three teams (MTL, VAN, & PHI) have ten players with 0.5+ ppg, and only three teams (VGK, COL, & NSH) have nine players. Toronto also has nine players with 0.5+ ppg. That has us t-4th in the NHL.
- Overall Performances: These are where our players rank (among forwards with 15+ GP) in points-per-game.

First Line (1-93)
13. Matthews (1.16)
16. Marner (1.14)
33. Tavares (0.95)
47. Nylander (0.86)
70. Hyman (0.76)

Second Line (94-186)
132. Mikheyev (0.59) *injured
157. Kapanen (0.54)
179. Johnsson (0.49) *injured

Third Line (187-279)
202. Spezza (0.45)
205. Kerfoot (0.44)

Fourth Line (280-372)
296. Engvall (0.33)
321. Malgin (0.29)
340. Clifford (0.25)

Sub-Replacement (373+)
384. Gauthier (0.20)
398. Petan (0.19)

So we have 11 forwards producing at NHL levels of production, 13 when we are healthy. Looking at our lines, we've got this:

Hyman (3F) - Matthews (1F) - Marner (1F) --> Three first liners, two #1 forwards
Kerfoot (7F) - Tavares (2F) - Nylander (2F) --> Two upper-tier first liners, a high-end third liner
Clifford (11F) - Spezza (7F) - Kapanen (5F) --> Two second liners, a fourth liner
Engvall (10F) - Gauthier (13F) - Malgin (11F) --> Two legit fourth liners, a sub-optimal centre

Because our team is so good on the top-end, the contributions of the bottom end can feel underwhelming, but stacked up against the rest of the league, they are really doing a fine job, especially considering the roles they play, without much PP time, lack of TOI in general, and lack of productive offensive linemates.

Great work, the numbers look correct, just plain and simple facts, yet, some folks want to focus on scoring; which is very strange, like you say. They just want something else or somewhere else to put blame, I suspect, when we need to look at Defense, team defense.
It's been this way for a few years too, going back to Kessel or so, we've been a good scoring team, or at least, scoring has not been one the team's bigger concerns, - it's always been TEAM DEFENSE, and whatever that entails and requires.

 

[tokyoite]

leafs strength : nothing
leafs weakness : everything

 

[-DeMo-]

This is what happens when you spend 40 mill on four players.

And there are people who advocate signing petro to 10+ million and gut even more of our depth to do so

 

[PromisedLand]

I think we should trade Kadri fit a d-man and a center



#Dubas=MORON

 

[Boxscore]

Was discussing this in another thread--yes, Spezza is a good value contract at 700k but the Leafs could better use a player like Derek Grant for 650k. The Flyers just got him at the deadline for a 5th rounder. The guy is gritty, good in the paint, and hustles his butt off--the Ducks were matching him up against MacKinnon. The Leafs don't need a ton of "production" in their bottom six--they need some contribution but, more importantly, players who are difficult to play against. It's all about mix.

 

[Jeffrey Pedler]

Yeah, but the "nothing" that they give isn't exactly startling.

First of all, all four of those guys are fourth liners. In a healthy world, only two of them are in the lineup (probably Engvall & Clifford). Only one of them (Gauthier) has produced at a sub-4th line rate this season. Otherwise, Engvall is producing like a 10F, and Clifford & Malgin like 11Fs, which is already an above average 4th line right there (nobody in the bottom 1/3 of 4th line production). So I'd argue their production levels, given their roles on the team, is actually fine, if not, above average.

The reason it is frustrating at the moment is because with Mikheyev & Johnsson out, one of these fourth line players is being forced to play in a third line role. At the end of the day though, these guys are here not to score, but to not be scored against, to play 8-12 minutes of low-event, low-risk hockey, and let our loaded top two lines & PP score the league leading amount of goals in the NHL.

Exactly, it's funny how some fans think that fourth liners should be scoring 20 goals a season. I don't even think fourth liners did that during the high scoring 80's.

 

[Boxscore]

Exactly, it's funny how some fans think that fourth liners should be scoring 20 goals a season. I don't even think fourth liners did that during the high scoring 80's.

During the firewagon 80's, 4th liners were comprised of pugilists and thugs looking to inflict punishment. Today, a top-heavy club like the Leafs really just need fiery competitors in the bottom-6 with fast motors, hustle and grit. Then can chip in the occasional offense here and there but their assignments should be to shut down the opponent, swing a little momentum, and kill penalties and/or protect leads. There's 40 mil tied up in forwards who need to carry the offense--right or wrong. Johnsson is needed back.

 

[Pookie]

So just checking in on this thread.

Secondary scoring is down.

(So is their ice time).

We expect more from our bottom 6.

(In less ice time)


Is that a good summary?