Secondary Pro League in Canada...

hockeyguy0022

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Feb 20, 2016
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Why is there no secondary pro league in Canada? Sure there's a couple AHL teams in the east, but there's really nothing outside of that. (Marlies/Laval)

LNAH or the Quebec fighting league doesn't count.

CHL is pretty boring now a days. Physicality is not there anymore and you're paying almost NLL ticket prices in some places.

University/Usport is packed most games, but arenas only usually hold 3-4K, game is much more exciting compared to the CHL now.

Senior mens - decent hockey, but not a career, just beer league with the odd semi-pro guy and CHL players 10 years later.

Seems to me there's definitely room for a pro-league which could suck up the CAN ECHL/Older AHL players/Overseas. The AHL would then be reduced to basically an under 26 league.

Don't have to go with the Hockey Canada flow/rules etc...

Just an interesting thought experiment.
 

hockeyguy0022

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Feb 20, 2016
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Truth be told I'd go if tickets were reasonable. The NHL has priced itself out of my market other than the odd game now if I wanna take family.

That's what im saying, there's a reason why the NLL packs the house at 40-100 bucks a ticket.

Let the corporations etc pay for the NHL etc... people are poor, the NHL is pretty much priced out of the "working mans" price range.

NHL is $175-500 a seat now in Canada for anything remotely decent. There's absolutely a market for 25-125 range, but people aren't going to pay that for CHL or CIS/USPORT.

Players would be paid in that 80-300K range type of thing. Keep the overseas guys closer to home to play the last 5-6 years of their career etc..

You should try the USPORT in the mean time, very affordable for the family and good hockey.
 
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Barclay Donaldson

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Why is there no secondary pro league in Canada? Sure there's a couple AHL teams in the east, but there's really nothing outside of that. (Marlies/Laval)

LNAH or the Quebec fighting league doesn't count.

CHL is pretty boring now a days. Physicality is not there anymore and you're paying almost NLL ticket prices in some places.

University/Usport is packed most games, but arenas only usually hold 3-4K, game is much more exciting compared to the CHL now.

Senior mens - decent hockey, but not a career, just beer league with the odd semi-pro guy and CHL players 10 years later.

Seems to me there's definitely room for a pro-league which could suck up the CAN ECHL/Older AHL players/Overseas. The AHL would then be reduced to basically an under 26 league.

Don't have to go with the Hockey Canada flow/rules etc...

Just an interesting thought experiment.

What do you mean <<no secondary pro league>>? Canada and USA share sports setups, save for gridiron football. USA doesn't have one, naturally Canada won't have one either.

There are only 7 Canadian NHL teams, so to have 4 Canadian AHL teams is a pretty high rate. The other 3 in the West don't have them in Canada because of the horrible travel and decreased prospect development that would ensue. That's just completing a cost/benefit analysis.

There will be 3 Canadian ECHL teams in 2021-22. Considering the preference for junior hockey, that is a pretty high rate as well.

LNAH is independent pro. Their low fan count shows the interest of a secondary pro league in Canada is low. CHL is junior and college is amateur, not sure why you would count them. Senior men's is free/paid beer league, not sure why you're counting them either.

If what you mean is why isn't there some IHL-type league to challenge the AHL, then the answer is simple. Not enough markets, not enough interested markets, not enough interested and open markets.
 

No Fun Shogun

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The AHL covers a few decently-sized markets and the CHL covers pretty much everywhere else. I get that Quebec City and Hamilton and the GTA and even Saskatoon all want a major pro team of their own, but I don't see how a rogue league would be remotely viable in this day and age.
 
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Nac Mac Feegle

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Depends on how it's set up, and the traveling expenses. If you had a 6-team league in a smallish area like Ontario and Quebec, it may work. You would also have to keep tickets under $75 or so, and have a salary cap/revenue distribution scheme of some sort.
 

Number 57

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Depends on how it's set up, and the traveling expenses. If you had a 6-team league in a smallish area like Ontario and Quebec, it may work. You would also have to keep tickets under $75 or so, and have a salary cap/revenue distribution scheme of some sort.

The way I see it is there is definitely space for an independant pro league that can rival the ECHL or AHL but like you said it has to be around the North East. And you need wealthy owners so they can sign a couple of older AHL veterans guys. Most of these players would be from the North East who would rather live and play close to family and are willing to sacrifice some salary (instead of going to Europe or playing in a boring midwest ECHL town or something).

There are probably guys aged 30+ who actually retire because they don't want to go to Europe and don't feel like traveling around the AHL/ECHL. Maybe even former NHLers or top AHLers. They could be interested in a smaller league where travel is minimal and the level of play is fairly high.

There is more than enough hockey fans around Ontario, Quebec, Maritimes, Vermont, Maine, New Hampshire, New York, Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania to find 6 spots to install teams in. Pay the players between 50k-150k and charge $20-$50 per tickets.

It would be fun to watch but probably won't happen.
 

Golden_Jet

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Sep 21, 2005
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Also Belleville in Ontario for AHL.

ECHL is another one
lots of Junior teams to follow, another league not needed.
 
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BKIslandersFan

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There is more than enough hockey fans around Ontario, Quebec, Maritimes, Vermont, Maine, New Hampshire, New York, Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania to find 6 spots to install teams in. Pay the players between 50k-150k and charge $20-$50 per tickets.
Who would pay that to watch AHL hockey???

I am sure average AHL ticket prices are cheaper than that.
 

Number 57

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Who would pay that to watch AHL hockey???

I am sure average AHL ticket prices are cheaper than that.

They are right around that price range. You can't see much nowadays for less than $20-$30, and if you get some of the better seats you are likely to pay $40-$50. I mean, it's much cheaper than NHL at around $100-$500 range. Even junior hockey is expensive.

I am only speaking from experience in Quebec, though. Go check out price range for Laval Rocket, Blainville-Boisbriand Armada, Drummondville Voltigeurs, etc
 

ArmadilloThumb

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Apr 20, 2018
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Honestly my first thought seeing the thread title was probably not... But the more I think outside the box it could be great.

Have it affiliated with the NHL, market it as NHL Senior, with a minimum age the same as UFA age. Salary min 100K, max 250K. All air travel over 100 miles. 50 game reg season. 12 teams:

Halifax
Quebec City
Montreal
GTA 1 (North of Toronto)
GTA 2 (Hamilton)
London
Saskatchewan (in Saskatoon)
Hartford
Some of Cleveland/suburban Detroit/Suburban Chicago/suggest some other American cities. Fort Wayne, Albany, Indy,

If teams emphasized signing guys who are from the region it might up interest with both fans and players. So a bit of a return to roots but with a big league vibe.
 

Yukon Joe

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Why is there no secondary pro league in Canada? Sure there's a couple AHL teams in the east, but there's really nothing outside of that. (Marlies/Laval)

Manitoba Moose say hi.

But really, how much more hockey options do Canadians need? Here in Edmonton I can watch NHL, WHL, USPORTS, or AJHL. Honestly the market is pretty saturated I think.
 

JMCx4

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Honestly my first thought seeing the thread title was probably not... But the more I think outside the box it could be great.

Have it affiliated with the NHL, market it as NHL Senior, with a minimum age the same as UFA age. Salary min 100K, max 250K. All air travel over 100 miles. 50 game reg season. 12 teams:

Halifax
Quebec City
Montreal
GTA 1 (North of Toronto)
GTA 2 (Hamilton)
London
Saskatchewan (in Saskatoon)
Hartford
Some of Cleveland/suburban Detroit/Suburban Chicago/suggest some other American cities. Fort Wayne, Albany, Indy,

If teams emphasized signing guys who are from the region it might up interest with both fans and players. So a bit of a return to roots but with a big league vibe.
So what would that make ... 1 ... 2 ... 3 ... IHL4, is it?
 

Barclay Donaldson

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Honestly my first thought seeing the thread title was probably not... But the more I think outside the box it could be great.

Have it affiliated with the NHL, market it as NHL Senior, with a minimum age the same as UFA age. Salary min 100K, max 250K. All air travel over 100 miles. 50 game reg season. 12 teams:

Halifax
Quebec City
Montreal
GTA 1 (North of Toronto)
GTA 2 (Hamilton)
London
Saskatchewan (in Saskatoon)
Hartford
Some of Cleveland/suburban Detroit/Suburban Chicago/suggest some other American cities. Fort Wayne, Albany, Indy,

If teams emphasized signing guys who are from the region it might up interest with both fans and players. So a bit of a return to roots but with a big league vibe.

It would absolutely not for many reasons.

It wouldn't be affiliated with the NHL. They only want the AHL and ECHL. They've actively helped killed off competing leagues like the IHL. They wouldn't just create another league. They have fought tooth and nail to keep the AHL as one entity instead of letting the western teams split off to create a rival league.

Those markets you listed all have other forms of hockey which are well supported and either wouldn't jump or can't support both.

Travel is a non-starter. Anything which is east coast based and then includes Saskatoon is ridiculous. And Halifax's closest opponent is a 10 hour ride away. Absolute non-starter.

If I had a Euro for every North American-based league which was started on the principles that local guys and a grass roots presence would be a good idea. Have fun pitching that to investors.
 
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Big McLargehuge

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Manitoba Moose say hi.

But really, how much more hockey options do Canadians need? Here in Edmonton I can watch NHL, WHL, USPORTS, or AJHL. Honestly the market is pretty saturated I think.

And is support really going to go top-down across the board? Football is huge in Pittsburgh and yet every time a lower level football team sets up shop around Pittsburgh they either fail quickly or play in front of a mostly empty stadium because they're not the Steelers and thus not worth Pittsburghers' time and/or money, even if their stated purpose to exist is to provide an affordable alternative.

(just using this example since it's one I'm familiar with)
 

Zenos

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Any new pro league would have a very tough go of it...

Just look at the CFL. Despite being the highest level of gridiron available in Canada, with a century of history and tradition, a very solid media partner (it’s basically TSN‘s top product for the summer/fall sports season), and Canada’s most watched television event (grey cup), it’s still a bit shaky financially.

i can’t imagine NHL teams playing nice with a new competitor either- they’d lock them out of their arenas, and probably put pressure on their sponsors and media partners as well.
 
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Ted Hoffman

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Have it affiliated with the NHL, market it as NHL Senior, with a minimum age the same as UFA age. Salary min 100K, max 250K. All air travel over 100 miles. 50 game reg season. 12 teams:
1. The NHL is unlikely to affiliate with another league outside the AHL. (Not including the ECHL here, even though there are affiliations.) But, let's pretend that it could possibly happen.

2. Affiliation likely means players assigned will have to be under contract to an NHL team. Given the number of prospects in the AHL already on contracts, it probably means an expansion of the 50-contract limit and the 90-man reserve list. Not sure there's an appetite for the owners on that unless they're getting something back in return (i.e., salaries for players so assigned count against the Players Share / some aggregate amount of players assigned outside the NHL count against the Players Share)

3. 12 teams might be too few to effectively affiliate. Or, it might mean there's a max # of players that can be assigned by an NHL team and the lower-league team has discretion to be able to sign players as well.

4. Not sure how many players are going to play for 100 min/250 max just to stay in North America if they can get 2-3x that in Europe. Meaning, those that do stay for that are probably going to be similar in talent level to fringe NHLers with an occasional "we need to dump a guy somewhere." That 100/250 min/max would have to get worked into the SPC and would create a mismatch where players under-27 who were in the AHL could earn higher salaries and not be subject to a max; not sure if that's something the NHLPA would balk on, but I can see the over-27 group asking why they have to get crammed like that as part of taking an NHL contract.
 

HugoSimon

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Jan 25, 2013
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Any new pro league would have a very tough go of it...

Just look at the CFL. Despite being the highest level of gridiron available in Canada, with a century of history and tradition, a very solid media partner (it’s basically TSN‘s top product for the summer/fall sports season), and Canada’s most watched television event (grey cup), it’s still a bit shaky financially.

i can’t imagine NHL teams playing nice with a new competitor either- they’d lock them out of their arenas, and probably put pressure on their sponsors and media partners as well.

The CFL is a prairie league. I'm 33 years old and I've never seen a Canadian Football. Think about that for a minute.

Canadians don't care about football. It competes with Lacrosse and Rugby despite having a much bigger footing in the country.

The success of the league is a testament to how quickly Canadians will jump to anything Canadian.

There's this weird form of Stockholm syndrome that is so deep seated in Canada.

Everyone else in the world has strong preferences for local teams, only in Canadian hockey are people freaked out by the idea of having a local league with some relevance.

The trick of making a league work is spreading it out coast to coast. Eventually working towards a small national TV deal.

A simple feat would be breaking the monopoly on Toronto Hockey. Unbeliviably of the 10 million people surrounding Toronto not everyone is a leaf fan. Even more radically people would actually enjoy having an affordable hockey option. Can you believe in Canadians in Toronto wanting to watch hockey?

The biggest mental block is trying to pretend like Canada is an arbitrary country. This isn't the 1960s. I'm never gonna get my uncle in regina talking it up about AHL teams located in New England. Simple Christmas diner talk is more than enough motivation for some to watch. This is a big country, people are incredibly spread out and are mobile. If I move to Vancouver or Edmonton it'd be great if I could watch my east coast team in person. If my cousin in Calgary gets defeated my team that's fun.

The reality is it's not unimaginable to get a second tier tv deal with the CBC, TSN etc.

It might not be NHL level income but I'd argue there's market potential for something relatively strong.


Again no one in my family is watching a game between St John's and Manchester. Everyone in my family will be watching if its St john's and Regina.
 

93LEAFS

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Any new pro league would have a very tough go of it...

Just look at the CFL. Despite being the highest level of gridiron available in Canada, with a century of history and tradition, a very solid media partner (it’s basically TSN‘s top product for the summer/fall sports season), and Canada’s most watched television event (grey cup), it’s still a bit shaky financially.

i can’t imagine NHL teams playing nice with a new competitor either- they’d lock them out of their arenas, and probably put pressure on their sponsors and media partners as well.
No one cares about the CFL in Toronto. Which is really what kills it given the Toronto area makes up a 1/6th of Canada's population. The Argos relevance rates so far behind TFC at the moment it's comical.
 

mouser

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No one cares about the CFL in Toronto. Which is really what kills it given the Toronto area makes up a 1/6th of Canada's population. The Argos relevance rates so far behind TFC at the moment it's comical.

Company I used to work for had a major office in Montreal I traveled to many times a decade+ ago Went out to dinner one night with one of my local coworkers and her family. Her husband was born and raised in Montreal, perfectly fluent in both French and English. Couldn’t care less about the CFL, was a die hard NFL fan. Very enlightening to meet and chat with him.

My coworker was a big Canadiens fan, but didn’t want to be a hockey mom with all the commitments required, so their kids didn’t get deeply involved in hockey. Oldest son was very athletic and would go on to play football at the University of Toronto.
 
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ColinM

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I think people who brought up the CFL comparisons hit the nail on the head. If a Canadian only league existed it would be considered second tier by many. Through in the fact that major junior occupies most the secondary markets I don't think there's much room for a 15 to 20 team Canadian League that would fit between the NHL and CHL.

A more interesting thought experiment is what would a Canadian Pro League look like if the NHL didn't exist in its current form? For example would we have something like European Soccer were we have perpetual elite teams (in this case the current NHL teams) and teams that try to jump in from time to time (like the top tier Major Junior Markets). If such a format did exist could there still be some form of Champions League hockey style?
 

93LEAFS

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Company I used to work for had a major office in Montreal I traveled to many times a decade+ ago Went out to dinner one night with one of my local coworkers and her family. Her husband was born and raised in Montreal, perfectly fluent in both French and English. Couldn’t care less about the CFL, was a die hard NFL fan. Very enlightening to meet and chat with him.

My coworker was a big Canadiens fan, but didn’t want to be a hockey mom with all the commitments required, so their kids didn’t get deeply involved in hockey. Oldest son was very athletic and would go on to play football at the University of Toronto.
Yeah, I'm a diehard NFL fan. Try to go to one or two games a year, play in multiple fantasy leagues, subscribe to The Athletic and PFF primarily for Fantasy and NFL draft coverage. I don't care at all about the CFL, and couldn't name a single player on the Argos off the top of my head, and would be ecstatic if Toronto got an NFL team (although, I don't know if I could switch teams, no matter how much pain the Browns have brought me). I do follow NCAA football, but not religiously (the team I support also sucks these days, which doesn't help).
 
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frontsfan2005

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I don't see a market for a league like this in Canada.

The talent level would be at best ECHL level, but more likely lower, as ECHL teams are affiliated with NHL teams.

This league would have a hard time competing against junior teams as well, as those players are the "future" of hockey, and ticket prices are very affordable. The London Knights, for example, usually are loaded with top NHL prospects at $25 per ticket. Top players who aren't junior eligible are either in the NHL or AHL. Josh Kestner was the leading scorer in the ECHL last season - this is the caliber of players the Canadian league would be putting out and this is a hard sell in CHL markets when basically every team has players that are drafted into the NHL.

I don't think they'd be able to draw many top European players either.

A Canadian league may have worked in the 50's and 60's when the NHL had only two teams. A Canadian league could have looked very similar to the CFL:

East: Halifax, Quebec, Montreal, Ottawa, Hamilton, Toronto
West: Victoria, Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Regina/Saskatoon, Winnipeg

Six teams in the East and six in the West - only play within your division until the final round - fans were used to seeing the same six teams in the NHL, so I don't think this would be an issue - until air travel became more accessible.

Maybe they could have built a following, and may have been an option for NHL caliber players as leverage if they were in salary disputes, or buried in the minors. Like the WHA, this league could have allowed junior aged players sign (Gretzky in Indy, Messier/Gartner in Cincinnati) to compete with the CHL.
 
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PurpleMouse

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Apr 27, 2014
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Minor leagues work because despite being a secondary league, most of the teams in that league are the top teams in their given city or can make a case for it.

That's why this couldn't work in Canada because in pretty much every single market you'd be butting heads against a more prestigious hockey team.

If, hypothetically, the CHL didn't exist, then it could work. But all the potential markets in North America are taken by the combination of the NHL, AHL, ECHL, CHL.
 

HugoSimon

Registered User
Jan 25, 2013
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This league would have a hard time competing against junior teams as well, as those players are the "future" of hockey, and ticket prices are very affordable. The London Knights, for example, usually are loaded with top NHL prospects at $25 per ticket. Top players who aren't junior eligible are either in the NHL or AHL. Josh Kestner was the leading scorer in the ECHL last season - this is the caliber of players the Canadian league would be putting out and this is a hard sell in CHL markets when basically every team has players that are drafted into the NHL.
.
This is the part I'd disagree with. London is proof there is room for a mid-tier league in this country. You have Acadie bathrust in the same league as cities like London,Quebec city etc.

There's a number of cities that would benefit from national league. London/Halifax/Quebec/Saskatoon/Victoria/Water-kitch/Hamilton etc. Not to mention Levis/Laval/Markham/Brampton etc.

I think 8-12 teams would be the maximum size, and it'd be obviously dependent on a billionaire shut out of the NHL/broadcasting company desperate for content(either streaming/cable).

The biggest problem with the ECHL is its a league full of places I never heard of. This is the only reason the CFL exists. It taps into markets that are shutout of the big leagues/want to be national.

If it were a 30 years ago when everyone lived in roughly the same place it wouldn't be such a pull. But in 2020 people live everywhere. The beauty of a national league is that I can follow my Hometown Halifaxians when I'm living in Toronto. By simple math if 10 percent of halifax fans move to Toronto(a consistent stat) you fill a number of games by just being national.

ECHL/AHL have the same trouble of being comprised of teams that aren't national.

The CHL isn't the right scale for the middle tier cities. And anytime we're talking about a national league those are the cities we are referring to.

I'm not buying the "player quality" argument either. If that were the case the MLS would never of existed. And I think being a hometown sport for mid tier cities more than offsets the lack of top tier soccer in NA. The flip side of the player quality argument is that all your players are tourists. There's no sticking around etc. Soon as you get to know someones name they're gone. This is great if you want to be a feeder league but I think this is a case of people speaking for everyone else. Not to mention the number of 1st round drafts drops like a rock once you move beyond Londons etc, and this trend will likely continue. The local fans aren't gonna give two flips that a Panters 4th line winger once played in saskatoon. The diehards don't fill arenas, how the league is presented matters a lot more than people want to admit. Most people aren't gonna drive 3 hours to see "a game", they want an after work hangout with an impressive atmosphere. Going to a knights game felt far more major league than going to a sens game. Having a team in saginaw doesn't elevate the imagine of the London Knights. The london knights are huge exactly because it's the only thing going on in one of the dullest cities in Canada. Too far from Toronto for regular "day trips", not big enough to have much of anything to do. I get a lot of people fetish the development system, but hockey is still the leading form of winter/fall entertainment.


I'd imagine a Canadian League as approaching an upper tier AHL team in terms of scale. With 8-12 teams tops. Potentially setting up roots in if Ottawa etc ever loose their team. The trick is planning it to fill the major league voids of the country. Put a major major effort on getting hometown players, make it a brother against brother league. Put a big push on capturing hometown nostalgia among transplants etc. Focus heavily on scheduling and broadcasting the games so familes split across provinces can follow them. Potentially set it up so teams can visit neighboring cities more often Halifax-Moncton, Saskatoon-Lethbridge Victoria-Nanaimo etc.

The country is starved for a national league like the CFL. The CFL would be the ideal vehicle for this, but the sport has zero pull in the East. Halifax/Mississauga/London/Kitchener/Quebec would all big massive CFL cities if anyone cared about the sport.

But for most Eastern Canadians, football is an American sport, that has a massive following in Saskatchewan with a modest one in Manitoba/Alberta. Most of it's viewership comes from a very different generation of people, back when the NHL was just 1 step above a minor league in the US.

I guess I should make a habbit of this, but it also needs to be mentioned where I'm from and where my connections in this country are from. Victoria-London-Toronto-Halifax-StJohn's, and I'd be hard pressed to believe that so many posting on this form have any experience in those smaller cities. I'd argue that 90 percent of people on this sub have zero interest in the topic on any personal local level, that counts for a whole lot when they seem to be speaking for what us midtier folk want.

I get a little frustrated when people assume the World has to revolve around the American Big 3/Toronto sports model. Again I'm not arguing its a given. But what I'm tired of arguing with is the notion something either has to exist or it never will exist. As if the whole world has been worked out so perfectly. The magical of potential is that it can be harnessed or it can lay dormant for very long periods of time. Sports fans tend to discount potential when its not their own, so I don't think it's a shock people tend to jump at the idea that potential exists. An all Canadian League is up there with a "new expansion team" in having the potential to happen, but at the same time a very very high chance of remaining dormant/failing.
 
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