Season Wrap Thoughts

Stamkos4life

Registered User
Oct 25, 2018
2,955
2,630
This is embarrassing.

The objective in hockey is to win the Stanley cup. To accomplish this you have to win a couple series in the playoffs.

The leafs haven't won a series in 16 years! How is that even possible?

The fact that the leafs are going to be in cap hell going forward wont help this team get better.

All in all i think this might be it for me. Real tired of cheering for a team that is synonymous with failure.

Maybe taking the summer off will help but not sure.
 

IPS

Registered User
Sep 28, 2017
15,462
24,488
No, it's perfectly rational, he can't be trusted. He needs to go. Two years in a row he's taken himself out of the series.
That's fine if you feel he needs to go but he ain't the sole reason we lost this series bud.

I don't wanna hear you criticizing people about picking out scapegoats if you're gonna run away with a hot take like this.
 

leaffaninvancouver

formerly in Victoria
Jan 11, 2012
13,819
8,327
That's fine if you feel he needs to go but he ain't the sole reason we lost this series bud.

I don't wanna hear you criticizing people about picking out scapegoats if you're gonna run away with a hot take like this.

It's not a hot take, he's a liability. He's not some easy target to pile blame on, he did this to the team again. He's being blamed because he's 100% at fault for a stupid play again. Who else is to blame for his shiatty decision?
 

DanM

Registered User
Oct 2, 2017
5,584
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Washington is the outlier though, teams built that way are usually winning their cups with their young stars under 25/26, when you're building along this blueprint you're looking to be Pittsburgh/Chicago not Washington.

High draft picks are dramatically more likely to yield star caliber talent, and a franchise not being able to get out of the first round with the talent we have may well need more star caliber talent. If finding the next Aho/Kucherov with 2nd round picks is what you're hitching your chances to, you're putting yourself into a situation that you're very unlikely to succeed.

A franchise like the Leafs with the player personnel they have should also not have trouble getting out of the first round, it's been more along the "expected outcome" curve in previous years as we were coming out of a rebuild, but this year needed to be better and the long term huge AAV commitments to a small number of players is going to tie their hands to significantly supplement outside of the draft while also having started to trade away first round picks.

I'm not saying that we're doomed, I'm saying that if there isn't marked improvement next year in the outcome, it will be time to think about cashing in some high value players for a do-over at the rebuild because the management of this team has likely mis-played their hand and will be too cap-committed with too few high ceiling non-roster pieces to really change it.

JVR/Bozak should have been traded for futures, Gardiner maybe as well, none of that would have changed the outcomes in their respective years (except possibly for the better). Nylander and Matthews were probably paid too much, Marner probably will be as well.

And again I want to re-iterate that I'm an optimist, I was as high as anyone on this version of the Leafs being able to contend for a long time. They're starting to really rattle that outlook with their results, and the outlook isn't likely to improve from here as we start to deal from the non-roster asset base and commit huge money to a small number of players. They need to prove they're a championship level team next year, otherwise I think the best course of action for the franchise is to start taking it apart and getting huge futures return for some of the valuable parts so they (probably under new management) can try again.

I think one of the biggest things that separate great programs from only good ones, is the ability to capitalize on, and forecast assets gains.

We needed to get assets from JVR, Bozie, and Gards, like a Tampa would have.

I am not saying we still don't draft well or develop, but we missed the boat on that.

But I will admit that we need to also restructure every single part of the coaching staff, we need somebody who understands and can adapt to millennial aged stars, and make in game changes to help us win. The coach and GM are not on the same page.
 
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Alexanderthe89

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Apr 29, 2011
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We need to find a better way to get out of our own zone and make possession more of a priority. I can’t stand watching our defense sit back on our own red line waiting to fire the puck up for a tip into the offensive zone while nobody forechecks. Especially while the one thing our defense is above average at is skating.
 

Gary Nylund

Registered User
Oct 10, 2013
29,787
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It's not a hot take, he's a liability. He's not some easy target to pile blame on, he did this to the team again. He's being blamed because he's 100% at fault for a stupid play again. Who else is to blame for his shiatty decision?

This series was winnable, even without Kadri. If we're dishing out the blame, Kadri probably deserves more than anyone else but I have Babcock as a close 2nd.
 
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DarkKnight

Professional Amateur
Jan 17, 2017
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I'm not so sure Kadri gets us Pesce in fact I doubt it. If he does I do that trade instantly but it's hard to see how Kadri's value hasn't plummeted, at least for a team that wants to win in the playoffs.
He's still a valuable two way center, number 2 on most teams. Plus he's cheap.
 

MattySnipes

Registered User
Jan 26, 2018
12,457
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Losing in the first round definitely sucks. We had another 100 point season but we just find ways to lose. We had a lead everytime this series and couldn't win back-to-back games. Something we rarely ever did this season with exception to one stretch of games where we won 4-5 in a row early on. Defense needs to be redone. Bye Gardiner, Marleau, and Brown. If Zaitsev can continue to play how he did in the playoffs this year I'd keep him. Hainsey I'd re-sign for cheap. Kadri two years in a row with stupid suspensions. Trade him too. If you can't put the team over your own selfish agenda you don't belong.

Nylander I really want to keep but man this year really didn't help him. Makes no sense to trade him when his value is so low. However if they get something they can't refuse I can see him being moved. I'm all for Keefe's Leafs next season but I don't feel Shanahan sees it that way.
 

IPS

Registered User
Sep 28, 2017
15,462
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This series was winnable, even without Kadri. If we're dishing out the blame, Kadri probably deserves more than anyone else but I have Babcock as a close 2nd.
I honestly think Kadri won't get traded this offseason, much to the chagrin of some folks.
 

DarkKnight

Professional Amateur
Jan 17, 2017
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This is embarrassing.

The objective in hockey is to win the Stanley cup. To accomplish this you have to win a couple series in the playoffs.

The leafs haven't won a series in 16 years! How is that even possible?

The fact that the leafs are going to be in cap hell going forward wont help this team get better.

All in all i think this might be it for me. Real tired of cheering for a team that is synonymous with failure.

Maybe taking the summer off will help but not sure.
Even the Cubs have won!
 

leaffaninvancouver

formerly in Victoria
Jan 11, 2012
13,819
8,327
This series was winnable, even without Kadri. If we're dishing out the blame, Kadri probably deserves more than anyone else but I have Babcock as a close 2nd.

Of course it was winnable, I just have no more faith in Kadri. He took away our biggest strength against Boston. Matthews and Nylander couldn't play together at home, and losing him made our third line terrible.
 

DarkKnight

Professional Amateur
Jan 17, 2017
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We need to find a better way to get out of our own zone and make possession more of a priority. I can’t stand watching our defense sit back on our own red line waiting to fire the puck up for a tip into the offensive zone while nobody forechecks. Especially while the one thing our defense is above average at is skating.
At the beginning of the series we were making these little short passes, forwards low for support, that was working. Last night, watching these stretch passes, when they were staying back anyways, it was maddening.
 

Gary Nylund

Registered User
Oct 10, 2013
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He's still a valuable two way center, number 2 on most teams. Plus he's cheap.

That's true but is Kadri perhaps the first player in NHL history to get suspended in the 1st round two years in a row? What that does to his value I can only guess but I don't think it's good.

I honestly think Kadri won't get traded this offseason, much to the chagrin of some folks.

We'll see I guess. I've always loved Kadri and if he did stay here and redeem himself in next year's playoffs I would love it. You really have to take a huge leap of faith to give him that chance though, not sure if I could do it if it was up to me. Unless as I've said, his trade value is so low that there's just no point in trading him, I wouldn't give him away, that's for sure.
 
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Gary Nylund

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Oct 10, 2013
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At the beginning of the series we were making these little short passes, forwards low for support, that was working. Last night, watching these stretch passes, when they were staying back anyways, it was maddening.

Yeah I wish someone could explain WTF happened there. Why do we play one way, look great doing it and then change again. I just don't get it.
 

Randy Randerson

Registered User
Jul 28, 2016
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I think one of the biggest things that separate great programs from only good ones, is the ability to capitalize on, and forecast assets gains.

We needed to get assets from JVR, Bozie, and Gards, like a Tampa would have.

I am not saying we still don't draft well or develop, but we missed the boat on that.

But I will admit that we need to also restructure every single part of the coaching staff, we need somebody who understands and can adapt to millennial aged stars, and make in game changes to help us win. The coach and GM are not on the same page.
I think the saving grace could be that Dubas' view is probably the right one and he'll survive Babcock's departure when that time comes. If the massive analytics department that he's assembling lets them get great value out of their picks consistently and the player development system continues to be effective, this may all be fine. But, there's been significant mistakes that are getting more glaring, like not managing expiring assets well - if we see a continuation of that in Muzzin/Kadri/Rielly, it's going to be hugely limiting for the upside of this version of the franchise and we may end up being Chicago of the last couple of years without ever having been Chicago of 2010-2017. That's a hard pill to swallow from what seemed like a can't miss position of 3 years ago
 
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DanM

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Oct 2, 2017
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I think the saving grace could be that Dubas' view is probably the right one and he'll survive Babcock's departure when that time comes. If the massive analytics department that he's assembling lets them get great value out of their picks consistently and the player development system continues to be effective, this may all be fine. But, there's been significant mistakes that are getting more glaring, like not managing expiring assets well - if we see a continuation of that in Muzzin/Kadri/Rielly, it's going to be hugely limiting for the upside of this version of the franchise and we may end up being Chicago of the last couple of years without ever having been Chicago of 2010-2017. That's a hard pill to swallow from what seemed like a can't miss position of 3 years ago

Very well point, and I completely agree.
 
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DarkKnight

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Jan 17, 2017
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Yeah I wish someone could explain WTF happened there. Why do we play one way, look great doing it and then change again. I just don't get it.
It really stood out last night because we weren't doing that at all early in the series.
 

Jimmy Firecracker

Fire Sheldon.
Mar 30, 2010
35,559
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Mississauga
This was the most miserable season I've had seriously watching this team. I don't think even 2009-10 when we were on a crash course to handing Boston a top draft pick was as bad as this one was. It started out great with the Tavares signing in July, but it became depressing and anxiety riddled soon enough. The Nylander contract situation was a black cloud hanging over this team despite the fact that they were playing great hockey to start the season. The contract talk regarding Matthews and Marner and the constant media narrative about the impending cap crunch was also annoying as it seemed the media was intent on making sure no one had any fun following the team this season. The drama with that team from the state of N.Y. and their hick fans was annoying as well. And the knowledge since like January that we'd be facing Boston again just compounded with everything else going on around this team.

I don't see how anyone could rate this season as anything but a failure. We were billed as contenders after we signed Tavares, the biggest free agent signing for this franchise and one of not the biggest free agent signing in the NHL since the salary cap was implemented. This team added a legitimate top four defenseman in Muzzin at the deadline, the core was another year older and experienced, but the end result was the exact same as last season.

2018-19 will be remembered as the wasted season. 2/3 of the Leafs "Big Three" were still on their ELC's, as were other talented young players in Dermott, Johnsson, and Kapanen. This was Tavares first year here and could potentially be his most productive season. Rielly, Gardiner, Kadri, Muzzin, and Andersen are in their primes and on good contracts. This is arguably the most talented Leafs squad since the turn of the century, and all they've got to show for it is another first round Game 7 loss to Boston. Going forward, it will be difficult to construct a team this deep again given the impending salary cap crunch.

The poor play this team demonstrated in the second half of the season was baffling. I don't understand how a team this talented could play so inconsistently. They looked like gangbusters from October to December, and then the wheels just fell off. Yes, there was injury trouble to be sure, but this team should've been able to handle it, and injuries aren't the main reason why this team went 20-17-6 from January to April, an 87/88 point pace that would've been good for 17th overall in the league, certainly not a playoff team.

There are hard questions that need answering, and heads will/should roll for this seasons shortcomings. The special teams coaches (Hiller and Smith) should be out. Supporting players like Marleau, Brown, Kadri, Gardiner, Hainsey, and Zaitsev should be moved out to make room for new players and cap space to sign Marner and our other RFAs. And Babcock should be put on notice, if he isn't already.

I know people are gunning for Dubas as well, but I actually liked the moves he made to improve the team. The contract negotiations have been bad yes, but adding Tavares and Muzzin to this roster while trimming the fat from previous squads (many of whom are ironically going to be playing in the second round) should've resulted in a better finish than it did. I don't think he (or anybody else really) realized just how far Babcock would go to play scrubs and his personal favourites over actual skilled players. Forcing Marleau and Brown on the ice in the dying minutes when we're trying to tie the game was asinine.

In my personal opinion, Babcock has one more season to win this team a playoff round, and Dubas has a couple more years on the clock, a year to re-tool and give Babcock a chance, and another year or two with his own coach should Babs and the team fail again and he fires him in favour of Keefe or whoever.

This off-season is going to be interesting, not that I'm going to follow it all that closely, I'm going to try to ignore this team during the summer. I'll still watch the playoffs (Go Jackets and Sharks) but after that I need a break from hockey. This off-season to me is foggy. Decisions are going to need to be made with the cap crunch, and there's no real "goal" imo that this team can look forward to. There's no Tavares level free agent for us this time, no first round pick so the draft will be boring. I'm not sure what moves this team is going to make in the off-season.

Also going to avoid any main hubs of hockey discussion (main boards here and r/hockey on reddit) because really, we're just going to get carved for the entire off-season and pretty much all of next season. Still no playoff series win, fans of Tavares' former team will be dancing on our grave and celebrating having more success than we've had in 15 years, Bruins fans will continue to lord over us, and the rest of the NHL will laugh at our cap situation and this franchises continued futility.

My avatar for the forseeable future perfectly encapsulates how I feel about this season. Disappointing and exhausting.
 
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DanM

Registered User
Oct 2, 2017
5,584
3,516
I just hope the coaching staff is replaced, it is time. I also hope Marner comes in at 9.5 per, and before anybody says impossible, none of us know what he will ask for.

I have to admit, it is pretty funny reading the Vegas threads, they are talking about heartache....... come back to me when almost 60 years of heartache hits lol Leafs have great, great, grandparents who have had heartache.

What a spoiled franchise!

Some of their fans prob still don't understand what an "offside" is, and they talk heartache
 
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IPS

Registered User
Sep 28, 2017
15,462
24,488
This was the most miserable season I've had seriously watching this team. I don't think even 2009-10 when we were on a crash course to handing Boston a top draft pick was as bad as this one was. it started out great with the Tavares signing in July, but it became depressing and anxiety riddled soon enough. The Nylander contract situation was a black cloud hanging over this team despite the fact that they were playing great hockey to start the season. The contract talk regarding Matthews and Marner and the constant media narrative about the impending cap crunch was also annoying as it seemed the media was intent on making sure no one had any fun following the team this season. The drama with that team from the state of N.Y. and their hick fans was annoying as well. And the knowledge since like January that we'd be facing Boston again just compounded with everything else going on around this team.

I don't see how anyone could rate this season as anything but a failure. We were billed as contenders after we signed Tavares, the biggest free agent signing for this franchise and one if not the biggest free agent signing in the NHL since the salary cap was implemented. This team added a legitimate top four defenseman in Muzzin at the deadline, the core was another year older and experienced, but the end result was the exact same as last season.

2018-19 will be remembered as the wasted season. 2/3 of the Leafs "Big Three" were still on their ELC's, as were other talented young players in Dermott, Johnsson, and Kapanen. This was Tavares first year here and could potentially be his most productive season. Rielly, Gardiner, Kadri, Muzzin, and Andersen are in their primes and on good contracts. This is arguably the most talented Leafs squad since the turn of the century, and all they've got to show for it is another first round Game 7 loss to Boston. Going forward, it will be difficult to construct a team this deep again given the impending salary cap crunch.

The poor play this team demonstrated in the second half of the season was baffling. I don't understand how a team this talented could play so inconsistently. They looked like gangbusters from October to December, and then the wheels just fell off. Yes, there was injury trouble to be sure, but this team should've been able to handle it, and injuries aren't the main reason why this team went 20-17-6 from January to April, an 87/88 point pace that would've been good for 17th overall in the league, certainly not a playoff team.

There are hard questions that need answering, and heads will/should roll for this seasons shortcomings. The special teams coaches (Hiller and Smith) should be out. Supporting players like Marleau, Brown, Kadri, Gardiner, Hainsey, and Zaitsev should be moved out to make room for new players and cap space to sign Marner and our other RFAs. And Babcock should be put on notice, if he isn't already.

I know people are gunning for Dubas as well, but I actually liked the moves he made to improve the team. The contract negotiations have been bad yes, but adding Tavares and Muzzin to this roster while trimming the fat from previous squads (many of whom are ironically going to be playing in the second round) should've resulted in a better finish than it did. I don't think he (or anybody else really) realized just how far Babcock would go to play scrubs and his personal favourites over actual skilled players. Forcing Marleau and Brown on the ice in the dying minutes when we're trying to tie the game was asinine.

In my personal opinion, Babcock has one more season to win this team a playoff round, and Dubas has a couple more years on the clock, a year to re-tool and give Babcock a chance, and another year or two with his own coach should Babs and the team fail again and he fires him in favour of Keefe or whoever.

Wish I could like this but my likes are still taken away. These mirror my thoughts almost entirely save for giving Babcock another season.

Babcock had his chance and he f***ing blew it. I don't want any more time wasted on this moron, he's already proven full-well that he will never deviate from how he wants things done even if it's for the betterment of the team.

It takes a seriously screwed up series of events to make the season the way it was. I honestly never had any fun watching this team this year...

2016-2017 remains the best Leafs year since the cap era.
 
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DarkKnight

Professional Amateur
Jan 17, 2017
31,321
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This was the most miserable season I've had seriously watching this team. I don't think even 2009-10 when we were on a crash course to handing Boston a top draft pick was as bad as this one was. it started out great with the Tavares signing in July, but it became depressing and anxiety riddled soon enough. The Nylander contract situation was a black cloud hanging over this team despite the fact that they were playing great hockey to start the season. The contract talk regarding Matthews and Marner and the constant media narrative about the impending cap crunch was also annoying as it seemed the media was intent on making sure no one had any fun following the team this season. The drama with that team from the state of N.Y. and their hick fans was annoying as well. And the knowledge since like January that we'd be facing Boston again just compounded with everything else going on around this team.

I don't see how anyone could rate this season as anything but a failure. We were billed as contenders after we signed Tavares, the biggest free agent signing for this franchise and one if not the biggest free agent signing in the NHL since the salary cap was implemented. This team added a legitimate top four defenseman in Muzzin at the deadline, the core was another year older and experienced, but the end result was the exact same as last season.

2018-19 will be remembered as the wasted season. 2/3 of the Leafs "Big Three" were still on their ELC's, as were other talented young players in Dermott, Johnsson, and Kapanen. This was Tavares first year here and could potentially be his most productive season. Rielly, Gardiner, Kadri, Muzzin, and Andersen are in their primes and on good contracts. This is arguably the most talented Leafs squad since the turn of the century, and all they've got to show for it is another first round Game 7 loss to Boston. Going forward, it will be difficult to construct a team this deep again given the impending salary cap crunch.

The poor play this team demonstrated in the second half of the season was baffling. I don't understand how a team this talented could play so inconsistently. They looked like gangbusters from October to December, and then the wheels just fell off. Yes, there was injury trouble to be sure, but this team should've been able to handle it, and injuries aren't the main reason why this team went 20-17-6 from January to April, an 87/88 point pace that would've been good for 17th overall in the league, certainly not a playoff team.

There are hard questions that need answering, and heads will/should roll for this seasons shortcomings. The special teams coaches (Hiller and Smith) should be out. Supporting players like Marleau, Brown, Kadri, Gardiner, Hainsey, and Zaitsev should be moved out to make room for new players and cap space to sign Marner and our other RFAs. And Babcock should be put on notice, if he isn't already.

I know people are gunning for Dubas as well, but I actually liked the moves he made to improve the team. The contract negotiations have been bad yes, but adding Tavares and Muzzin to this roster while trimming the fat from previous squads (many of whom are ironically going to be playing in the second round) should've resulted in a better finish than it did. I don't think he (or anybody else really) realized just how far Babcock would go to play scrubs and his personal favourites over actual skilled players. Forcing Marleau and Brown on the ice in the dying minutes when we're trying to tie the game was asinine.

In my personal opinion, Babcock has one more season to win this team a playoff round, and Dubas has a couple more years on the clock, a year to re-tool and give Babcock a chance, and another year or two with his own coach should Babs and the team fail again and he fires him in favour of Keefe or whoever.

This off-season is going to be interesting, not that I'm going to follow it all that closely, I'm going to try to ignore this team during the summer. I'll still watch the playoffs (Go Jackets and Sharks) but after that I need a break from hockey. This off-season to me is foggy. Decisions are going to need to be made with the cap crunch, and there's no real "goal" imo that this team can look forward to. There's no Tavares level free agent for us this time, no first round pick so the draft will be boring. I'm not sure what moves this team is going to make in the off-season.

Also going to avoid any main hubs of hockey discussion (main boards here and r/hockey on reddit) because really, we're just going to get carved for the next 12 months. Still no playoff series win, fans of Tavares' former team will be dancing on our grave and celebrating having more success than we've had in 15 years, Bruins fans will continue to lord over us, and the rest of the NHL will laugh at our cap situation and this franchises continued futility.

My avatar for the forseeable future perfectly encapsulates how I feel about this season. Disappointing and exhausting.
Agreed. Hard to see Babcock fired, but st the very least he won't have much choice but to bring in a new assistant, assume that's a Dubas demand.

As an aside, talked to three Leafs fans friends today, everyone of us said unprompted they felt sick to their stomach last night.

TML, the indigestion that unites us all!!
 
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RLF

Registered User
May 5, 2014
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At the beginning of the series we were making these little short passes, forwards low for support, that was working. Last night, watching these stretch passes, when they were staying back anyways, it was maddening.

I hear ya. That would be prep by the coaching staff. Hate the overuse of the stretch pass and been complaining how it doesn't suit our skill all season. Major systematic mess.
 
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Gary Nylund

Registered User
Oct 10, 2013
29,787
21,963
I just hope the coaching staff is replaced, it is time. I also hope Marner comes in at 9.5 per, and before anybody says impossible, none of us know what he will ask for.

I have to admit, it is pretty funny reading the Vegas threads, they are talking about heartache....... come back to me when almost 60 years of heartache hits lol Leafs have great, great, grandparents who have had heartache.

What a spoiled franchise!

Some of their fans prob still don't understand what an "offside" is, and they talk heartache

:laugh::laugh:
 
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DarkKnight

Professional Amateur
Jan 17, 2017
31,321
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I hear ya. That would be prep by the coaching staff. Hate the overuse of the stretch pass and been complaining how it doesn't suit our skill all season. Major systematic mess.
That isn't playoff hockey. Gardiner gone will help in that regard. Even Zaitsev was trying stretch passes last night, bizarre.
 
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