Speculation: Search for a President of Hockey..... Oops

[topshelf15]

Where do we start?

The fact that he couldn't even get a first for Mark Stone basically says it all.

Burrows, Hoffman, Karlsson...

Yep holds on to all his key assets until the last possible moment ,pretends like he ever had the chance to sign any of them....Then tries to sell the fans that we got fair value,when the rest of the league didnt believe him either,hense the poor return

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Where do we start?

The fact that he couldn't even get a first for Mark Stone basically says it all.

Burrows, Hoffman, Karlsson...

Mike Condon, Zack Smith & Craig Anderson signings.

 

[swiftwin]

Where do we start?

The fact that he couldn't even get a first for Mark Stone basically says it all.

Burrows, Hoffman, Karlsson...

Try harder.

We did get a 1st for Stone. Brannston was drafted in the 1st, and if a re-draft was done today, he'd probably go even higher than he did.

Burrows was a useful rental player. We traded a bust of a player who has already been dumped to another team by Vancouver.

We got a big haul for Karlsson, who ended up with less goals than DeMelo this season and may not even re-sign with San Jose (if he does, it's starting to look like we're gonna get an extra 1st round pick in 2021, which, with their rapidly aging core, might be a very good pick).

Hoffman was traded for a 2nd round pick by San Jose. This is probably the worst deal Dorion has done. We got Bodker instead of a 2nd round pick. If Bodker instead of a 2nd is the worst deal he has done (especially considering the online harassment drama), I'd say Dorion is doing a pretty damn good job.

 

[NorthCoast]

You know, if the team had just flat out said "we're looking for a couple of senior advisors to help Pierre out at the GM level", the fanbase would have probably seen it as a positive move. Hell, I've been saying Dorion needs experienced support in an advisory role for literally years.

But no. Like usual, they have to spin it into this massive PRESIDENT OF HOCKEY OPS! EVERYTHING IS GREAT! message, which of course blows up in their faces.

Typical of this regime. Why take what could have been a small win and make it into a huge embarrassment?

There is no way to properly message this because this position is nonsense. Pay sucks. You have no real authority. And you'll work for a guy who is notorious for having unrealistic expectations...yeah, where do I sign-up for that.

Not saying that senior advisory people on the pay-role is a bad idea, but I don't see how this person proves his value to Melnyk, regardless of the price, over time without authority over PD.

Whoever they hire will either replace PD or be gone within a year.

 

[Micklebot]

Try harder.

We did get a 1st for Stone. Brannston was drafted in the 1st, and if a re-draft was done today, he'd probably go even higher than he did.

Burrows was a useful rental player. We traded a bust of a player who has already been dumped to another team by Vancouver.

We got a big haul for Karlsson, who ended up with less goals than DeMelo this season and may not even re-sign with San Jose (if he does, it's starting to look like we're gonna get an extra 1st round pick in 2021, which, with their rapidly aging core, might be a very good pick).

Hoffman was traded for a 2nd round pick by San Jose. This is probably the worst deal Dorion has done. We got Bodker instead of a 2nd round pick. If Bodker instead of a 2nd is the worst deal he has done (especially considering the online harassment drama), I'd say Dorion is doing a pretty damn good job.

A prospect isn't a 1st.

Calling Burrows useful is extrodinarily generous and he's been bought out now. Dalen was seen as a quality prospect at the time of the trade, thats the value that is important when evaluating the trade from our oerspective, not what he eventually becomes. If we trade Brannstrom today for a 3rd round pick and he never plays an Nhl game that doesn't make it a good trade.

The Karlsson deal hinges on how the futures pan out but odds are we won't be getting a star out of any of the assets we aquired. The vegas rumours from the previous deadline were far better, we didn't land a single grade a asset.

Hoffman's value was comprimissed but we took a cap dump that SJ couldn't give away atthe prior TD. We took the bad contract that opened up their ability to take advantage of us on the next deal and made us look bad flipping him back to our conference moments later to the point that we included a clause in the karlsson deal to prevent it from happening again. Worst part is aquiring Boedker runs completely contradictory to what we should have been targetting in a rebuild.

None of those trades were remotely close to being wins, at best they were draws if you're feeling generous.

 

[swiftwin]

A prospect isn't a 1st.

Calling Burrows useful is extrodinarily generous and he's been bought out now. Dalen was seen as a quality prospect at the time of the trade, thats the value that is important when evaluating the trade from our oerspective, not what he eventually becomes. If we trade Brannstrom today for a 3rd round pick and he never plays an Nhl game that doesn't make it a good trade.

The Karlsson deal hinges on how the futures pan out but odds are we won't be getting a star out of any of the assets we aquired. The vegas rumours from the previous deadline were far better, we didn't land a single grade a asset.

Hoffman's value was comprimissed but we took a cap dump that SJ couldn't give away atthe prior TD. We took the bad contract that opened up their ability to take advantage of us on the next deal and made us look bad flipping him back to our conference moments later to the point that we included a clause in the karlsson deal to prevent it from happening again. Worst part is aquiring Boedker runs completely contradictory to what we should have been targetting in a rebuild.

None of those trades were remotely close to being wins, at best they were draws if you're feeling generous.

Dahlen was nowhere near the caliber Brannstrom is considered today. He wasn't even in our top 5 prospects at the time. He more of in the Jonathan Davidson tier if we were to compare to a prospect we currently have. But he had red flags at the time, which were pretty obvious. Only the stat watchers over-rated him.

Either way, my point stands: If Dorion's worst trades can be considered "at best they were draws" like you say, he must be doing a pretty damn good job. If his worst trades are draws and his best trades are robberies (see: Brassard and Dzingel), then he's doing a great job.

Just look at what San Jose gave up to Vancouver for Hansen the same week we traded with Vancouver for Burrows. That's way worse than anything Dorion has done. Yet everyone keep praising Wilson like he's some sort of god. Every GM makes bad trades, and Dorion has kept them to a minimum.

 

[Smash88]

I can't really grade Dorion on any of these deals. He's in a severly handicapped position.

I'm not going to say he's good or bad, as I don't think he's ever had the authority other GM's get when making deals.

 

[Micklebot]

Dahlen was nowhere near the caliber Brannstrom is considered today. He wasn't even in our top 5 prospects at the time. He more of in the Jonathan Davidson tier if we were to compare to a prospect we currently have. But he had red flags at the time, which were pretty obvious. Only the stat watchers over-rated him.

Either way, my point stands: If Dorion's worst trades can be considered "at best they were draws" like you say, he must be doing a pretty damn good job. If his worst trades are draws and his best trades are robberies (see: Brassard and Dzingel), then he's doing a great job.

Just look at what San Jose gave up to Vancouver for Hansen the same week we traded with Vancouver for Burrows. That's way worse than anything Dorion has done. Yet everyone keep praising Wilson like he's some sort of god. Every GM makes bad trades, and Dorion has kept them to a minimum.

Your strawman argument aside, the point i was making is it takes rose coloured glasses to view those trades as draws.

Dorion trades often come with the caveat whereby they are evaluated taking into consideration the position he was in; a position he inevitably put himself into.

If you can spin his moves into a positive light, good for you, just don't be shocked when others can see threw it

 

[BonkTastic]

There is no way to properly message this because this position is nonsense. You have no real authority.

There are plenty of teams who hire experienced guys in semi-retirement for these roles. You'd be surprised how many ex-GMs are doing exactly this for many teams in this league right now.

...Pay sucks. And you'll work for a guy who is notorious for having unrealistic expectations...yeah, where do I sign-up for that.

Yeah. THIS is the real roadblock to hiring anyone halfway competent.

 

[Tuna99]

Bob Gainey or Guy Carboneau would be good

 

[DaveMatthew]

How someone can think a GM whose team has finished in the bottom 3 for the last 2 seasons as he watched Karlsson, Duchene and Stone leave for greener pastures is beyond me.

The team has been terrible. The team looks like it will continue to be terrible.

But the GM has done a good job. Sure.

 

[HopelessSensFan]

I agree Dorion was in a handicapped position. So forget about trades. But why he failed to see the feud between EK and Hoffman? Why he couldn't do something before it all got exposed to the media? He could have traded Hoffman for a fair value if he had acted early. That would have prevented locker room issues too.

 

[DaveMatthew]

I agree Dorion was in a handicapped position. So forget about trades. But why he failed to see the feud between EK and Hoffman? Why he couldn't do something before it all got exposed to the media? He could have traded Hoffman for a fair value if he had acted early. That would have prevented locker room issues too.

If Dorion had just kept his mouth shut during 17/18 he could've avoided much of what happened.

The guy created 90% of the controversy that some people think put him in a bad spot.

You can't say he did well in the circumstance when he's fully responsible for the circumstance.

I look forward to the next inevitable PR disaster at the draft.

 

[BondraTime]

Are we just omitting the Zibanejad and Duchene deals, two of the worst ones?

What deals has he won? The Brassard to Pittsburgh, Wideman to Edmonton, and Dzingel to Columbus deals? They are the only ones I can confidently say we did well on

We got a good prospect and a 2nd for a 26 year old Selke nominated forward signed for 7 years. Gross.

Mid first and 2 b/c level prospects for a PPG center, at best even.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I agree Dorion was in a handicapped position. So forget about trades. But why he failed to see the feud between EK and Hoffman? Why he couldn't do something before it all got exposed to the media? He could have traded Hoffman for a fair value if he had acted early. That would have prevented locker room issues too.

Dorion has to shoulder a lot of the current mess. He should not be in that job.

 

[BonkTastic]

Are we just omitting the Zibanejad and Duchene deals, two of the worst ones?

What deals has he won? The Brassard to Pittsburgh, Wideman to Edmonton, and Dzingel to Columbus deals? They are the only ones I can confidently say we did well on

We got a good prospect and a 2nd for a 26 year old Selke nominated forward signed for 7 years. Gross.

Mid first and 2 b/c level prospects for a PPG center, at best even.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

Dorion is excelling in his job if you just omit the fact that he constructed the worst roster in the NHL for two years and counting, traded away every single one of the team's star players for underwhelming returns, lost a lottery pick, hired an awful coach, had his AHL team miss the playoffs every year since he's been involved, has most of the team's salary committed to Craig Anderson, Zack Smith, Mike Condon, Mikael Boedker and Bobby Ryan, and made the team an international embarrassment. If you take away all that, he's actually doing phenomenally well.

 

[Sensung]

Dorion is excelling in his job if you just omit the fact that he constructed the worst roster in the NHL for two years and counting, traded away every single one of the team's star players for underwhelming returns, lost a lottery pick, hired an awful coach, had his AHL team miss the playoffs every year since he's been involved, has most of the team's salary committed to Craig Anderson, Zack Smith, Mike Condon, Mikael Boedker and Bobby Ryan, and made the team an international embarrassment. If you take away all that, he's actually doing phenomenally well.

Great post.

 

[Sensung]

Would Jacques Martin be a good fit as POHO or senior advisor?

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDoo]

Try harder.

...

Burrows was a useful rental player. We traded a bust of a player who has already been dumped to another team by Vancouver.

I really can't wait for Jonathen Dahlen's career to progress to the point where we can close the book on whether we won or lost this trade. It's obviously too early to call him "a bust of a player", and I'm still willing to guess he'll still carve out an NHL career, especially now that he's in an organization that clearly knows how to develop players.

BUT -- no matter how Dahlen turns out there will always be a valid argument to be made that at the time of the trade Burrows could have been had for a lesser prospect and/or pick.

Try harder.
We got a big haul for Karlsson, who ended up with less goals than DeMelo this season ...

Jesus Christ.

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDoo]

Dorion is excelling in his job if you just omit the fact that he constructed the worst roster in the NHL for two years and counting....

Yeah, you know, GM is far and away the easiest position to evaluate in pro sports. At the end of the day, they are responsible for the teams W-L record. That's it, cold hard black and white results.

Maybe they get some slack for a few years if they inherit a very bad situation .... but it's a stretch to make that excuse for Dorion.

 

[supsens]

How someone can think a GM whose team has finished in the bottom 3 for the last 2 seasons as he watched Karlsson, Duchene and Stone leave for greener pastures is beyond me.

The team has been terrible. The team looks like it will continue to be terrible.

But the GM has done a good job. Sure.

His job was to get rid of everyone this year he is expected to be in last place. Once you hear the word rebuild it's over

 

[NorthCoast]

There are plenty of teams who hire experienced guys in semi-retirement for these roles. You'd be surprised how many ex-GMs are doing exactly this for many teams in this league right now.



Yeah. THIS is the real roadblock to hiring anyone halfway competent.

Exactly. Not saying that having experience around is a bad thing. But if you don't give them any authority then it's also not something you can hold accountable. Hence, I don't see how this position works with Melnyk.

 

[GrantLemons]

I really can't wait for Jonathen Dahlen's career to progress to the point where we can close the book on whether we won or lost this trade. It's obviously too early to call him "a bust of a player", and I'm still willing to guess he'll still carve out an NHL career, especially now that he's in an organization that clearly knows how to develop players.

BUT -- no matter how Dahlen turns out there will always be a valid argument to be made that at the time of the trade Burrows could have been had for a lesser prospect and/or pick.



Jesus Christ.

Left the thread after I read that. Truly amazing.

 

[NorthCoast]

Dahlen was nowhere near the caliber Brannstrom is considered today. He wasn't even in our top 5 prospects at the time. He more of in the Jonathan Davidson tier if we were to compare to a prospect we currently have. But he had red flags at the time, which were pretty obvious. Only the stat watchers over-rated him.

Either way, my point stands: If Dorion's worst trades can be considered "at best they were draws" like you say, he must be doing a pretty damn good job. If his worst trades are draws and his best trades are robberies (see: Brassard and Dzingel), then he's doing a great job.

Just look at what San Jose gave up to Vancouver for Hansen the same week we traded with Vancouver for Burrows. That's way worse than anything Dorion has done. Yet everyone keep praising Wilson like he's some sort of god. Every GM makes bad trades, and Dorion has kept them to a minimum.

I think one of the challenges about debating trades is agreeing upon how your evaluating the trade.

1) You can evaluate the trade based on the arbitrary value of the assets at the time of the trade.
2) You can evaluate the trade based on the actual values of the assets for a period of time after the trade.

Example:

If you trade a 2nd round pick straight up for the 1s overall pick...that would be a steal based on #1.

If you pick Yakapov with the first overall and the other team uses the 2nd to pick PK Subban...then that would be a steal based on #2.

The fact is that you can have a trade like the Dahlen trade where many will believe that according to #1...we lost the trade because they can make the case Dahlen had much more value at the time than Burrows and we should have gotten something that had more value than Burrows. AND of course you can say that based on #2, we won the trade because whatever we got out of Burrows was more valuable than anything from Dahlen if he indeed busts.

So you can have it both ways and therefore if you want to claim victory for Dahlen based on method #2, then you should probably also wait a little longer before claiming victory on Dzingle in the same way.


In terms of PD...I think if you look at all his trades/work the trend is pretty clear. He's good with young/amateur talent. No question. He knows how to draft. He seems pretty good at leading development. And his ability to project out how kids are developing will help us get better value on some trades where we trade young for old (Dahlen).

I just don't thing that this makes up for his other deficiencies, primarily his lack of leadership skills. Small markets can punch above their weight with better team cultures. Murray had that with the pesky sens. I have 0 faith in Dorion's ability to get a large group of adult men pulling in the same direction.

If PD is all we can get because nobody else wants to work with EM that doesn't mean he is a good GM and should be praised. It means he's lucky to have a job, the owners an ass, and the NHL has a major problem because when nobody around the league with credibility wants to work with you, you begin to feel isolate and angry at the league...which could result in wild-card actions/statements that the league doesn't want...and I would bet that under the circumstances the league would probably want to put in place another adult in the team to prevent this getting worse.

Of course I could be wrong. Maybe PD is pretty good at his job. Of course, knowing that his is the lowest paid GM in the league, if he is pretty good at this job...do you think another team tries to poach him away from Melnyk this summer? Why not?