Scouting Staff (Comparisons)

[MettleMcOiler]

It gets worse the more you look into it.

Messier doesn't even scout full-time because he also manages a hotel in the Bahamas that Mark owns...

He invites potential prospects there and see what kind of food they order. By scouting there food palette, he will get a better idea if the player has pro eating habits and only then will they get his nod of approval to be drafted by the oilers.

 

[onetweasy]

We always hear of guys not employed by us pointing us towards certain players. We have a lot of 'scouts' off the books, I imagine.

Obviously this method has proven ineffective.

It is exactly how remove accountability from the equation - See the Koski signing for a prime example. One minute it was a group decision and the next it was a rogue GM who faxed in the contract from a secret chamber......

Why not track and review every single scout's performance - come up with some sort of standardized way of reviewing their performance and over time you would find out who is and isn't providing value to the organization. Performance reviews are yet another simple basic management tool.......

 

[TB12]

I always just imagine the Oilers scouts like the scouts in Moneyball:

Scout 1: “He’s got an ugly girlfriend.”
Scout 2: “That means he lacks confidence.”
Scout 3: “Don’t take him.”

 

[5 Mins 4 Ftg]

Wanted to do a few comparisons of our scouts to a couple of other organizations (feel free to fill this out, and infer what you will from comparisons)

Oilers: 13 Scouts
Scouting Staff
11x Amateur Scouts
2x Professional Scouts

Tampa: 16 Scouts
Tampa Bay Lightning Hockey Ops and Coaching Staff
8x Amateur Scouts
3x European Scouts
4x Professional Scouts
1 Goaltending Scout

Winnipeg: 21 Scouts
13x Amateur Scouts
5x Professional Scouts
1x European Scout
2x Misc Scouts

Toronto Maple Leafs: 22 Personnel
Toronto Maple Leafs Scouting Staff | Maple Leafs Hotstove
5x Pro Scouts
5x European Scouts
8x Amateur Scouts

Montreal Canadians: 20 Scouts
Hockey Operations
5x Professional Scouts
2x NCAA Scouts
12x Amateur Scouts
- 2x European
- 2x American
- 1x Russian
- 1x Swedish

Las Vegas Scouts: 19
Front Office
7x Amateur
4x European
1x Goaltending
3x Professional Scouts

Calgary Flames Scouts: 17
HOCKEY OPERATIONS
12x Amateur Scouts
2x Pro Scouts
1x European Scout

Vancouver Canucks Scouts: 22
Coaches & Staff
18x Amateur Scouts
4x Professional Scouts

One thing that you overlooked;
Scott Howson and Craig MacTavish also are responsible for a lot of the Pro Scouting themselves.

I’ll just leave that right there.

Also look at the number of managers/directors/advisors and vice presidents this team employs.

 

[rboomercat90]

Our pro scouts are amateurs.

Our entire organization is amateur.

 

[rboomercat90]

One thing that you overlooked;
Scott Howson and Craig MacTavish also are responsible for a lot of the Pro Scouting themselves.

I’ll just leave that right there.

Also look at the number of managers/directors/advisors and vice presidents this team employs.

Wait, I thought Craig Mactavish, the Vice President of Hockey Ops, had nothing to do with big club. I thought we were told all his work was in Bakersfield.

 

[5 Mins 4 Ftg]

Wait, I thought Craig Mactavish, the Vice President of Hockey Ops, had nothing to do with big club. I thought we were told all his work was in Bakersfield.

Nope. He has been heavily involved in pro scouting.

It clearly said so as well prior to the Chia firing on the Oilers website as well. Stauffer also has reported it as have others.

 

[oilers'72]

Wanted to do a few comparisons of our scouts to a couple of other organizations (feel free to fill this out, and infer what you will from comparisons)

Oilers: 13 Scouts
Scouting Staff
11x Amateur Scouts
2x Professional Scouts

Tampa: 16 Scouts
Tampa Bay Lightning Hockey Ops and Coaching Staff
8x Amateur Scouts
3x European Scouts
4x Professional Scouts
1 Goaltending Scout

Winnipeg: 21 Scouts
13x Amateur Scouts
5x Professional Scouts
1x European Scout
2x Misc Scouts

Toronto Maple Leafs: 22 Personnel
Toronto Maple Leafs Scouting Staff | Maple Leafs Hotstove
5x Pro Scouts
5x European Scouts
8x Amateur Scouts

Montreal Canadians: 20 Scouts
Hockey Operations
5x Professional Scouts
2x NCAA Scouts
12x Amateur Scouts
- 2x European
- 2x American
- 1x Russian
- 1x Swedish

Las Vegas Scouts: 19
Front Office
7x Amateur
4x European
1x Goaltending
3x Professional Scouts

Calgary Flames Scouts: 17
HOCKEY OPERATIONS
12x Amateur Scouts
2x Pro Scouts
1x European Scout

Vancouver Canucks Scouts: 22
Coaches & Staff
18x Amateur Scouts
4x Professional Scouts

From looking at the team sites, the numbers may be off. I'm just counting scouts.

Tampa - as you have listed

Winnipeg - 4 pro scouts (one may be part time, as there's no photo), 12 amateur scouts (one may be part time), 1 European scout and a miscellaneous scout - for 18.
Hockey Operations

The list for Toronto is 3 years old and not from the team site. Toronto - 17 amateur scouts (some are probably European scouts but the site doesn't break it down) and 5 pro scouts - for 22.
Maple Leafs Management

Montreal - 3 pro scouts, 2 NCAA scouts, one miscellaneous pro scout, 3 North American amateur scouts, 5 European scouts, 3 miscellaneous amateur scouts - for 17.

Vegas - 3 pro scouts, 6 amateur scouts, 3 European scouts, 1 miscellaneous scout - for 13.

Calgary - 1 European pro scout, 1 pro scout, 12 amateur scouts (some may be European) - for 14.

Vancouver - 17 amateur scouts (6 may be part-time and some may be European), 4 pro scouts - for 21.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

From looking at the team sites, the numbers may be off. I'm just counting scouts.

Tampa - as you have listed

Winnipeg - 4 pro scouts (one may be part time, as there's no photo), 12 amateur scouts (one may be part time), 1 European scout and a miscellaneous scout - for 18.
Hockey Operations

The list for Toronto is 3 years old and not from the team site. Toronto - 17 amateur scouts (some are probably European scouts but the site doesn't break it down) and 5 pro scouts - for 22.
Maple Leafs Management

Montreal - 3 pro scouts, 2 NCAA scouts, one miscellaneous pro scout, 3 North American amateur scouts, 5 European scouts, 3 miscellaneous amateur scouts - for 17.

Vegas - 3 pro scouts, 6 amateur scouts, 3 European scouts, 1 miscellaneous scout - for 13.

Calgary - 1 European pro scout, 1 pro scout, 12 amateur scouts (some may be European) - for 14.

Vancouver - 17 amateur scouts (6 may be part-time and some may be European), 4 pro scouts - for 21.

If you're not counting the directors, or heads, then guess the better way to frame it is "This is the amount of personnel they have dedicated to Scouting".

 

[oilers'72]

If you're not counting the directors, or heads, then guess the better way to frame it is "This is the amount of personnel they have dedicated to Scouting".

If we're counting senior management involved in scouting then Green and Sutter (and possibly Gretzky) would count as part of the scouting staff.

 

[MaxR11]

lol oilers... hire a bunch of relatives for scouts and a bunch of amateur scouts who probably just drive around their own "area" to view jr games... basically cheap out on these extremely important positions but somehow have $500,000 for Coffey to do s*** all in toronto.

 

[jnk96]

Lack of any European or Goalie scout.

We have No european scout.

The fact that we rarely get Europeans to develop into NHL players should not shock anyone.

This is incorrect. The Europeans on the scouting staff are over in Europe. I saw Matti Virmanen in Germany recently, scouting Moritz Seider.

The big difference between NA and Euro scouts is that Euros are amateur and pro at the same time. In any German/Swedish/Finnish/etc. pro game, you only have 1-3 draft-eligible prospects to scout, but at the same time you can look for potential free-agent targets. So you just don’t need as many as in North America.

 

[edmoil3]

Stauffer says Peter locked himself in his office and made every decision alone.

 

[RattsSSV]

Guys it doesn't matter that they scouts are incompetent, Katz has the guys scouting for chicks anyways.

 

[Bangers]

It gets worse the more you look into it.

Messier doesn't even scout full-time because he also manages a hotel in the Bahamas that Mark owns...

His brother told him that's how Barry Fraser used to do it in the good ol' days.

 

[joestevens29]

It gets worse the more you look into it.

Messier doesn't even scout full-time because he also manages a hotel in the Bahamas that Mark owns...

You sure he isn't scouting in the Bahamas?

 

[joestevens29]

It is exactly how remove accountability from the equation - See the Koski signing for a prime example. One minute it was a group decision and the next it was a rogue GM who faxed in the contract from a secret chamber......

Why not track and review every single scout's performance - come up with some sort of standardized way of reviewing their performance and over time you would find out who is and isn't providing value to the organization. Performance reviews are yet another simple basic management tool.......

This is really what they should do. You submit your findings every year and in a couple years you can look back and see just who is good and bad. Heck you might realize that a guy you aren't listening to enough, is actually good.

Stauffer says Peter locked himself in his office and made every decision alone.

Well I don't blame him for doing that, although he should've just fired a whole bunch of people so that he'd have people he can trust and wouldn't have put himself in a situation where he doesn't trust anyone.

 

[BudBundy]

Great OP for starters. As for the actual issue, this whole thread is depressing. Nepotism and incompetence permeates the organization to the core. The misallocation of assets is just astoundingly bad. It’s no wonder we are where we are and I have zero confidence that the massive purge needed to fix it is even contemplated, let alone planned.

 

[FlameChampion]

Stauffer says Peter locked himself in his office and made every decision alone.

I have heard this too. I know Chiarelli sucks but its hard to know how to take this comment.

1) Was Chiarelli even allowed to hire his own staff? Outside of Keith Gretzky, he didnt really bring in anyone (to upper management). A lot of people like MacTavish, Howson, Green, Scott etc were all here. I know Nicholson will say that Chiarelli had complete control but from the outside looking in, its a bit hard to believe considering the amount of people that never changed. It will likely be more telling once the new GM is hired and we see the amount of turnover that results from it.

2) We dont know what decisions Chiarelli was responsible for. Was it his idea to trade Hall for example? I have no proof of it, but my gut feeling is that he wasnt the primary person that wanted to trade him. I really cant see how he was the primary reason behind the Reinhart trade. It sure smells like Bob Green on that one. Maybe he distanced himself from the staff (which he didnt hire) because he didnt trust the information he was given, and if he wasnt allowed to fire the people giving him this advice, you cant blame him for not listening to them if it is true.

3) A lot of the trades that were made this season, were just completely awful. Manning/Petrovic/Strome trades etc. I've said it before but when I watched Chiarelli interviews, the guy simply wasnt dialed in, on this team. If he was making these trades alone, I dont know what to say. Its pretty obvious that ownership/management/coaching were/are never on the same page.

4) The Koskinen signing to me, just spells out the arrogance of this organization. The knew they were going to fire Chiarelli, did fire him, and still signed Koskinen at 3 years @ 4.5mil aav. Thats a pretty significant signing, and they have now handcuffed the next GM. This isnt really about Koskinen, but I just dont understand why this deal was done. To me, this deal just screams that management/ownership has been meddling in GM affairs all along.

We will never know who is responsible to what extent based on what has happened. I think we can all agree though, that the management/ownership on this team is dysfunctional.

 

[joestevens29]

I have heard this too. I know Chiarelli sucks but its hard to know how to take this comment.

1) Was Chiarelli even allowed to hire his own staff? Outside of Keith Gretzky, he didnt really bring in anyone (to upper management). A lot of people like MacTavish, Howson, Green, Scott etc were all here. I know Nicholson will say that Chiarelli had complete control but from the outside looking in, its a bit hard to believe considering the amount of people that never changed. It will likely be more telling once the new GM is hired and we see the amount of turnover that results from it.

2) We dont know what decisions Chiarelli was responsible for. Was it his idea to trade Hall for example? I have no proof of it, but my gut feeling is that he wasnt the primary person that wanted to trade him. I really cant see how he was the primary reason behind the Reinhart trade. It sure smells like Bob Green on that one. Maybe he distanced himself from the staff (which he didnt hire) because he didnt trust the information he was given, and if he wasnt allowed to fire the people giving him this advice, you cant blame him for not listening to them if it is true.

3) A lot of the trades that were made this season, were just completely awful. Manning/Petrovic/Strome trades etc. I've said it before but when I watched Chiarelli interviews, the guy simply wasnt dialed in, on this team. If he was making these trades alone, I dont know what to say. Its pretty obvious that ownership/management/coaching were/are never on the same page.

4) The Koskinen signing to me, just spells out the arrogance of this organization. The knew they were going to fire Chiarelli, did fire him, and still signed Koskinen at 3 years @ 4.5mil aav. Thats a pretty significant signing, and they have now handcuffed the next GM. This isnt really about Koskinen, but I just dont understand why this deal was done. To me, this deal just screams that management/ownership has been meddling in GM affairs all along.

We will never know who is responsible to what extent based on what has happened. I think we can all agree though, that the management/ownership on this team is dysfunctional.

Well on Hall it was determined before he got here that Hall would be dealt. I don't doubt he was the guy that made the trade, but he had pressure to move the kid. And at the end of the day I don't think too many management people with the Oilers were against a move that moved out Hall and brought in Lucic and Larsson.

Koskinen, it's been made quite clear that the management team identified him as a guy to sign long-term. Nicholson himself came out and said as much. As it was a question many had. How can you let a guy sign a guy long-term when you know he's on thin ice. Nicholson responded with the team came up with parameters to re-sign him.