Scoring vs Opponent

overpass

Registered User
Jun 7, 2007
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The stats page at nhl.com allows you to view player scoring vs a particular opponent. So now it's very easy to look back at NHL history and find which players struggled or excelled against particular opponents.

I looked at some Original Six era players. With only 6 teams in the league, players could play multiple seasons' worth of games against each opponent in their career, so I was particularly interested in looking for trends from this era. I found 3 that stood out to me.

1. Bobby Hull struggled against the Montreal Canadiens

Regular season from 1959-60 to 1971-72

PlayerGPGAPP/GP+/-EVPPPPSHP
Bobby Hull89657348310561.1825972929928
Stan Mikita9183746169901.0825166631113
Gordie Howe8413685379051.0815158829324
Frank Mahovlich8994214238440.9420861022410
Johnny Bucyk8883394958340.94-685612694
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Regular season vs Canadiens from 1959-60 to 1971-72
PlayerGPGAP P/GP+/-EVPPPPSHP
Bobby Hull14261531140.80-3370395
Stan Mikita14651961471.0132106401
Gordie Howe14250781280.90286384
Norm Ulllman14856731290.87-1787393
Frank Mahovlich13546611070.79374330
Johnny Bucyk13942671090.78-4577320
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
From 1959-60 to 1971-72 -- his prime years in the NHL -- Bobby Hull was the premier offensive player in the league. But against the Montreal Canadiens, Hull only scored at 68% of his normal rate, and scored less than Stan Mikita, Gordie Howe, and Norm Ullman. The drop was even more pronounced at even strength, where Hull scored at a lower rate against the Habs than Frank Mahovlich and Johnny Bucyk. Hull only scored 70 points (39 G, 31 A) at evens against the Habs, and his teammate Stan Mikita scored 50% more (37 G, 69 A, 106 P) at even strength. Hull was also a significant minus against the Habs, despite having the highest overall plus-minus

Clearly the Habs put their top checkers against Hull's line when they played the Hawks, and they had a lot of success. Claude Provost and Rejean Houle both played RW against Hull with success, and the late @Canadiens1958 pointed out that Henri Richard was always the centre matched against Hull and Henri was responsible for much of their success shutting Hull down.

Hull was a plus player and was the leading scorer against every other Original Six team during this time period.

Bobby Hull, 1959-60 to 1971-72 regular season
OpponentGPGAPP/GP+/-EVPPPPSHP
Boston Bruins14698931911.3147130574
Detroit Red Wings14092751671.1946121433
Montreal Canadiens14261531140.80-3370395
New York Rangers142102721741.2361122493
Toronto Maple Leafs14490711611.129107504
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Hull also scored under a point per game in the playoffs against the Habs, but unlike the regular season he was a plus player and outscored his teammate Mikita (who had 9 goals and 29 points).

OpponentGPGAPP/GP+/-EVPPPPSHP
Boston Bruins40220.50-3020
Detroit Red Wings352525501.43833170
Montreal Canadiens341417310.91816132
New York Rangers17512171.0041241
Toronto Maple Leafs1286141.17-1950
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
2. Maurice Richard scored less against the Boston Bruins

Starting with the Dick Irvin years and omitting the WWII years. While he scored fewer points against the Red Wings, everyone scored fewer points against the Red Wings, who were the dominant regular season team of this time period.

Maurice Richard, 1945-46 to 1954-55 regular seasons
OpponentGPGAPP/GP+/-EVPPPPSHP
Boston Bruins1245245970.7874203
Chicago Black Hawks12397641611.31117422
Detroit Red Wings1255040900.7266231
New York Rangers12174531271.0593340
Toronto Maple Leafs11962511130.9580330
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Vs Boston, 1945-46 to 1954-55 regular seasons
PlayerGPGAPP/GP+/-EVPPPPSHP
Maurice Richard1245245970.7874203
Gordie Howe11650621120.9793181
Ted Lindsay1184548930.7973200
Max Bentley1094344870.8063231
Ted Kennedy1133747840.7459232
Doug Bentley672858861.2872140
Roy Conacher664536811.2367140
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Maurice Richard was the leading point scorer of this time period, but against Boston he was #2 to Gordie Howe, and had similar points/game to Ted Lindsay, Max Bentley, and Ted Kennedy. By the way, it appears that the Chicago duo of Doug Bentley and Roy Conacher were lethal against Boston in the last half of the 40s, almost matching Richard's scoring totals in a little more than half the games played.

Should Woody Dumart and Milt Schmidt get the credit for limiting the Rocket?

Richard's scoring drought against Boston continued under coach Toe Blake in the late 50s Canadiens dynasty. Jean Beliveau and Bernie Geoffrion's line scored very well against Boston, but the Moore-Richard-Richard line did not. Claude Provost nearly matched the Rocket against the Bruins, and scored more at even strength.

Vs Boston, 1955-56 to 1959-60 regular seasons
PlayerGPGAPP/GP+/-EVPPPPSHP
Maurice Richard531921400.7523170
Jean Beliveau644340831.3049340
Bernie Geoffrion522540651.2544201
Henri Richard642230520.8137150
Dickie Moore692430540.7834191
Claude Provost672621470.704214
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Richard had more success against the Bruins in his playoff career. He scored 22 goals and 11 assists in 37 playoff games against them, including 5 GWG and 2 OT goals.

3. The Habs' Moore-Richard-Richard line was much better than the Olmstead-Beliveau-Geoffrion line against the Toronto Maple Leafs

1952-53 to 1959-60 vs Toronto Maple Leafs
PlayerGPGAPP/GP+/-EVPPPPSHP
Dickie Moore8839631021.1664380
Henri Richard662751781.1863150
Maurice Richard935146971.0465320
Bert Olmstead801133440.5529150
Jean Beliveau854147881.0456320
Bernie Geoffrion923236580.6339290
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Beliveau was just above a point per game, but he led the Habs in scoring during these years with 1.17 points/game, so 1.04 was a drop for him. And his most frequent wingers Olmstead and Geoffrion really didn't score against the Leafs. Meanwhile, Dickie Moore, Henri Richard, and Maurice Richard were all above a point per game against the Leafs. Henri scored almost a point per game at even strength alone.

4. ...and Olmstead-Beliveau-Geoffrion were much better than Moore-Richard-Richard against the Rangers.

1952-53 to 1959-60 vs New York Rangers
PlayerGPGAPP/GP+/-EVPPPPSHP
Dickie Moore872347700.8050200
Henri Richard631932510.814290
Maurice Richard925247991.0868310
Bert Olmstead821857750.9145300
Jean Beliveau8551501011.1967340
Bernie Geoffrion8962601221.3782400
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Bernie Geoffrion scored literally twice as much against the Rangers as he did against the Leafs.

These are just some trends I found...feel free to post others, from the Original Six era or whenever.
 
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CartographerNo611

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Oct 11, 2014
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Seems a little unfair for Bobby. Those Canadien teams had some stud defenseman. Would be curious to see how other scorers fared against the Canadiens compared to other teams.

Canadiens had the pick of the litter when it came to prospects back then. It was really easy for them to stack the deck with talent.
 

overpass

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Jun 7, 2007
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Seems a little unfair for Bobby. Those Canadien teams had some stud defenseman. Would be curious to see how other scorers fared against the Canadiens compared to other teams.

Canadiens had the pick of the litter when it came to prospects back then. It was really easy for them to stack the deck with talent.

You can see that in the second table. Mikita, Howe, and Ullman all scored more points than Hull against the Habs, and Mahovlich and Bucyk were very close to Hull against the Habs despite being well behind in overall scoring.
 

Vilica

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Jun 1, 2014
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Yea, I'm kinda annoyed at that new feature, because I spent months and months creating spreadsheets and manually going year-by-year in game logs for almost all of the top 100 players to calculate those splits. Now I have these two huge spreadsheets that are just half-obsolete. However, I found the same information you did, though my conclusions about many of those pre-expansion players is that they benefited more from their games against the bad teams (see Maurice Richard against Chicago) than they were hurt by their games against good teams.
 

Staniowski

Registered User
Jan 13, 2018
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You can see that in the second table. Mikita, Howe, and Ullman all scored more points than Hull against the Habs, and Mahovlich and Bucyk were very close to Hull against the Habs despite being well behind in overall scoring.
13 seasons is a long time...was Hull's scoring woes against the Habs relatively consistent throughout, or was it more confined to a certain period?
 

decma

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Feb 6, 2013
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Clearly the Habs put their top checkers against Hull's line when they played the Hawks, and they had a lot of success. Claude Provost and Rejean Houle both played RW against Hull with success, and the late @Canadiens1958 pointed out that Henri Richard was always the centre matched against Hull and Henri was responsible for much of their success shutting Hull down.

Were these matchups mainly for games in Montreal or even when Chicago had last change?
 

Vilica

Registered User
Jun 1, 2014
425
487
13 seasons is a long time...was Hull's scoring woes against the Habs relatively consistent throughout, or was it more confined to a certain period?

NHL.com Stats

You can go into more filters to switch between home/road/both to further break it down, as well as switch teams to check how he did elsewhere.

This is him against Boston, for example: NHL.com Stats
 
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overpass

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Were these matchups mainly for games in Montreal or even when Chicago had last change?

Hull’s scoring against Montreal was down both at home and on the road, but he appears to have had the least success on the road at even strength. In 72 games in Montreal from 1959-60 to 1971-72, Hull scored only 14 goals and 27 points at even strength. Bob Nevin, a fine player but no Bobby Hull, matched those numbers in 8 fewer games in Montreal. And Hull was -40 in those 72 games—only Leo Boivin and Doug Mohns of the lowly Bruins had a worse plus-minus in Montreal over that time.

NHL.com Stats

To Hull’s credit, he scored a league-leading 16 road power play goals in Montreal during this time, but he was really shut down at even strength when Montreal had the last change.
 
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Vujtek

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Oct 7, 2007
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Here's few stats regarding these scoring vs. opponents stats:

Most points against one organisation - Gordie Howe vs. New York Rangers (316 GP 144+216=360)
Most points against one organisation after O6-era - Wayne Gretzky vs. Vancouver Canucks (117 GP 76+163=239)
Highest PPG against one organisation (minimum 50 points) - Wayne Gretzky vs. Los Angeles Kings (2.594 PPG 69 GP 60+119=179)

Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux hold the top-21 spots in highest PPG against one organisation list (with 50 point minimum). Next highest? Newsy Lalonde vs. Toronto Arenas/St.Patricks (1.872 PPG 39 GP 53+ 20= 73).

The only active player to have scored 100 or more points against one organisation is Sidney Crosby. He's done it against New York Islanders (67 GP 36+ 77=113) and Philadelphia Flyers (70 GP 43+ 62=105). Closest ones to 100 point milestones are Alexander Ovechkin vs. Carolina Hurricanes (81 GP 43+ 52= 95) and Patrick Marleau vs. Los Angeles Kings (116 GP 43+ 52= 95).

Crosby's PPG against the Islanders (1.687 PPG 67 GP 36+ 77=113) is the highest amongst active players (minimum 50 points). Crosby has five top-10 spots in this regard (vs. NYI, PHI, BUF, ATL/WPG and WSH), Malkin three (vs. TOR, ATL/WPG and WSH), Ovechkin one (vs. TOR) and to round out the top-10 spots is a surprise - Blake Wheeler (vs. COL).
 

Michael Farkas

Grace Personified
Jun 28, 2006
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www.HockeyProspect.com
Just for funsies, I took a look at the following...

1950-1979 (>10 games) - points per game scoring at Montreal.

1. Rick Martin 1.31 (16 GP)
2. Lanny McDonald 1.08 (12 GP)
3. Stan Mikita 1.04 (85 GP)
4. Marcel Dionne 1.00 (24 GP)
5. Gilbert Perreault 0.95 (20 GP)
6. Rick MacLeish 0.94 (16 GP)
7. Bobby Orr 0.91 (32 GP)
8. Rene Robert 0.89 (19 GP)
9. Garry Unger 0.87 (19 GP)
10. Gordie Howe 0.86 (140 GP)

Same but home+road vs Montreal
1. Stan Mikita 0.99 (172 GP)
2. Gordie Howe 0.96 (277 GP)
3. Bobby Orr 0.94 (64 GP)
4. Phil Esposito 0.84 (116 GP)
5. Garry Unger 0.83 (59 GP)
6. Bobby Hull 0.77 (170 GP)
7. Rod Gilbert 0.77 (122 GP)
8. Bronco Horvath 0.77 (86 GP)
9. Frank Mahovlich 0.77 (163 GP)
10. Andy Bathgate 0.76 (192 GP)
 

Dennis Bonvie

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Dec 29, 2007
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Too bad Canadiens1958 has passed.

He would have been able to tell us exactly how the Canadiens game planned to stop Hull. Probably involved Claude Provost and Henri Richard.

Notice Phil Esposito is 4th against Montreal overall, but not in the top 10 in Montreal. Wonder if there even was a line Canadiens defense couldn't cross while mugging Espo in the old Forum.
 

Theokritos

Global Moderator
Apr 6, 2010
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Too bad Canadiens1958 has passed.

He would have been able to tell us exactly how the Canadiens game planned to stop Hull. Probably involved Claude Provost and Henri Richard.

The hints are there, and of course you're right about the specific players:

key to stopping Hull was keeping the puck away from him in full flight leaving the defensive zone. Easiest way to do this was forecheck the puck moving defenceman - Pilote and eliminate as much as possible the direct transition to Hull. Force Pilote to pass to his defensive partner or a trailing forward. Hull would have to slow down at the Red Line to stay onside so his checking winger could cover him. Usually M.Richard, or Provost or Houle. Key was Henri Richard or the center impeding Pilote.

Shown previously that the center is the key to limiting other centers and great wingers offensively. Example Henri Richard was able to impact the offensive performance of Bobby Hull when Hull played center or moved to LW. Performance was constant whether Claude Provost or Rejean Houle was the RW assigned Bobby Hull. Only in the 1962 playoffs when Henri Richard was injured did Bobby Hull enjoy playoff success against the Canadiens.
 

Staniowski

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Jan 13, 2018
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The hints are there, and of course you're right about the specific players:
I do remember C1958 saying that the focus for Montreal was always on Hull, not Mikita....perhaps this is obvious (or perhaps not), but nevertheless...

From my viewings of Hull, I agree that the key to containing him would be to get him in Chicago's end, before and during transition.
 

overpass

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Jun 7, 2007
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Just for funsies, I took a look at the following...

1950-1979 (>10 games) - points per game scoring at Montreal.

1. Rick Martin 1.31 (16 GP)
2. Lanny McDonald 1.08 (12 GP)
3. Stan Mikita 1.04 (85 GP)
4. Marcel Dionne 1.00 (24 GP)
5. Gilbert Perreault 0.95 (20 GP)
6. Rick MacLeish 0.94 (16 GP)
7. Bobby Orr 0.91 (32 GP)
8. Rene Robert 0.89 (19 GP)
9. Garry Unger 0.87 (19 GP)
10. Gordie Howe 0.86 (140 GP)

Same but home+road vs Montreal
1. Stan Mikita 0.99 (172 GP)
2. Gordie Howe 0.96 (277 GP)
3. Bobby Orr 0.94 (64 GP)
4. Phil Esposito 0.84 (116 GP)
5. Garry Unger 0.83 (59 GP)
6. Bobby Hull 0.77 (170 GP)
7. Rod Gilbert 0.77 (122 GP)
8. Bronco Horvath 0.77 (86 GP)
9. Frank Mahovlich 0.77 (163 GP)
10. Andy Bathgate 0.76 (192 GP)

Maple Leaf Gardens in the post-war Original Six era wasn't an easy place to score in either. Nobody with at least 10 GP in Toronto from 45-46 to 66-67 scored over a point per game.

NHL.com Stats

Bobby Hull was the leader in Toronto with 29 goals and 65 points in 68 games (0.96 ppg). Stan Mikita was well down the list with only 11 goals and 35 points in 55 games at Toronto (0.64 ppg). Maybe Toronto was a better matchup for Hull, or maybe Toronto focused more on shutting down Mikita's line than Hull's line.
 

MadLuke

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Jan 18, 2011
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Too bad Canadiens1958 has passed.

He would have been able to tell us exactly how the Canadiens game planned to stop Hull. Probably involved Claude Provost and Henri Richard.

True, imagine how much value Henri Richard bring if he was better than a player like Hull when playing against him. How much Hull +/- change while Mikita go down just by 20% is quite something.
 

overpass

Registered User
Jun 7, 2007
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True, imagine how much value Henri Richard bring if he was better than a player like Hull when playing against him. How much Hull +/- change while Mikita go down just by 20% is quite something.

Henri Richard was "only" +15 at home against the Hawks from 1959-60 to 1971-72. So Hull's -40 mark in Montreal over the same time period can't have been solely because of Richard's line.

NHL.com Stats

Looking at centres only, Ralph Backstrom was +23, Richard was +15, Phil Goyette was +1, and Jean Beliveau was -3 over this time period at home against Chicago.
 
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scott clam

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Montreal had a guy named John Ferguson, who was acquired specifically to make life miserable for mr. Hull.
 

MadLuke

Registered User
Jan 18, 2011
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Henri Richard was "only" +15 at home against the Hawks from 1959-60 to 1971-72. So Hull's -40 mark in Montreal over the same time period can't have been solely because of Richard's line.

NHL.com Stats

Looking at centres only, Ralph Backstrom was +23, Richard was +15, Phil Goyette was +1, and Jean Beliveau was -3 over this time period at home against Chicago.

Your link show 66 game played for Henri Richard for that +15 while, -33 mark for Hull is over 140 games, they must be different set.

NHL.com Stats

This goes to 134 games and +4 for Richard
 

overpass

Registered User
Jun 7, 2007
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Your link show 66 game played for Henri Richard for that +15 while, -33 mark for Hull is over 140 games, they must be different set.

NHL.com Stats

This goes to 134 games and +4 for Richard

I guess I wasn't clear. My intention was to dig deeper into 72 regular season games Hull played in Montreal from 1959-60 to 1971-72, where he was -40 (see the link below). So the link showing Henri Richard with 66 GP and +15 is for the Habs in home games against Chicago from 1959-60 to 1971-72.

NHL.com Stats
 
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The Panther

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Wayne Gretzky's Oilers era (1979-1988) vs. select teams:

vs. Calgary
62GP: 47G + 92A = 133PTS (2.15 PPG)

vs. Chicago
28GP: 16G + 54A = 70PTS (2.50 PPG)

vs. Detroit
29GP: 21G + 66A = 87PTS (3.00 PPG)

vs. Los Angeles
63GP: 58G + 112A = 170PTS (2.70 PPG)

vs. Minnesota
29GP: 32G + 48A = 80PTS (2.76 PPG)

vs. Pittsburgh
28GP: 31G + 44A = 75PTS (2.68 PPG)

vs. Quebec
28GP: 27G + 57A = 84PTS (3.00 PPG)

vs. St.Louis
28GP: 27G + 57A = 84PTS (3.00 PPG)

vs. Toronto
29GP: 39G + 44A = 83PTS (2.86 PPG)

vs. Vancouver
64GP: 50G + 103A = 153PTS (2.39 PPG)

vs. Winnipeg
56GP: 57G + 87A = 144 PTS (2.57 PPG)


Oilers-Gretzky vs. Detroit was a lethal combination of (a) highly motivated Wayne vs. his boyhood team, with his father often in attendance in Detroit, and (b) lousy, pre-Demers Wings' defence. To put this number in perspective, he scored 1 point-per-period for nine years against Detroit!

The Quebec and St.Louis numbers are a little more surprising. But Wayne had two (of his four) five-goal games vs. St.Louis, and he had two 7-assist games vs. Quebec.


EDIT: Just to add to the Detroit thing -- This is how Wayne did vs. Detroit his first years in L.A.:
1988-89 -- 3GP: 13PTS
1989-90 -- 3GP: 10PTS
1990-91 -- 3GP: 6 PTS
1991-92 -- 3GP: 2PTS
1992-93 -- 2GP: 6PTS
1993-94 -- 4GP: 9PTS

So, up to 1991 -- for a period of 12 years -- he had scored 116 points in 38 games vs. Detroit, or 3.05 PPG.
 
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scott clam

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Sep 12, 2018
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I thought he was brought in to protect Jean Beliveau.
It might have been both;) The book "The Devil and Bobby Hull" outlines the kind of hard shadowing that Hull had to put up with from Fergusson. They dropped the gloves more than once.
01a4d9818d1aa1baa2fc6b0d6ac39b65.jpg
 
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brachyrynchos

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Apr 10, 2017
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Gretzky vs Vancouver is interesting...at one point he had a 33 game point streak against them (27-52-79). 12/30/84-11/15/88, the streak ended 11/27/88. Career he played 127 vs the Canucks and had at least a point in 106 of them.
EDM 62/68, LAK 40/49, STL 1/1, NYR 3/5.
 

overpass

Registered User
Jun 7, 2007
5,237
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Mario Lemieux had some interesting splits in his second season (85-86). His in-division scoring against Patrick Division opponents was really not great. He scored most of his points against the opposing conference with over 2.5 points/game against them, over twice the rate he scored against division opponents.

Mario Lemieux 1985-86 Splits | Hockey-Reference.com

Mario Lemieux in 1985-86
Vs Patrick Division: 35 GP, 12 G, 32 A, 44 P, 1.26 P/GP, -28
Vs Adams Division: 15 GP, 10 G, 13 A, 23P, 1.53 P/GP, +11
Vs Campbell Conference: 29 GP, 26 G, 48 A, 74 P, 2.55 P/GP, +9

Philly, Washington and the Islanders really had his number that season.

Vs Philadelphia: 7 GP, 2 G, 3 A, 5 P, -6
Vs NYI: 7 GP, 3 G, 4 A, 7 P, -11
Vs Washington: 7 GP, 1 G, 4 A, 5 P, -9
Combined: 21 GP, 6 G, 11 A, 17 P, -26

It’s as if Mario’s divisional opponents had figured him out but the rest of the league hadn’t. However, his splits the next season were much less pronounced and by 1987-88 he was scoring over 2 point/game against divisional opponents, so if there was a problem that season, he eventually solved it.
 

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