Saskatchewan Minor Hockey Thread II

[nah68]

Left but back to stir the pot......only reason sv split is cause the board who made recommendations run by city guys! Congrats you've achieved your goals. Real problem lies within borders of saskatoon and regina both centres have inflated the cost of playing so badly parents can't afford it. So per capita saskatoon should be embarrassed by there enrolment numbers! Just look at aaa midget teams I understand both clubs are 2500 more than any others in the league.

 

[Nottahockeyguy]

Let's not forget that the best athlete's in the cities don't necessarily play hockey. They have more options, particularly football, soccer, baseball, court sports etc. Further, much of these sports are now played year round due to indoor facilities. Saskatoon and Regina may have 200+ boys trying out for their 4 and 3 teams respectively but the calibre isn't there.

Last, quite surprised to see a McDonald's in Martensville yet sharing a team with SV. No doubt in my mind they should be split as it takes a significant population base to warrant a McD's. Take Melville for comparison purposes.

And we should all disregard the westerns in the decisions regarding teams and locations in the SBAAHL. The westerns are not for Sask regardless of what we do so we might as well split the SV zone now because who gives a hoot if the host team wins one and at most two games at that event? Utterly meaningless in the big picture.

 

[nah68]

Let's not forget that the best athlete's in the cities don't necessarily play hockey. They have more options, particularly football, soccer, baseball, court sports etc. Further, much of these sports are now played year round due to indoor facilities. Saskatoon and Regina may have 200+ boys trying out for their 4 and 3 teams respectively but the calibre isn't there.

Last, quite surprised to see a McDonald's in Martensville yet sharing a team with SV. No doubt in my mind they should be split as it takes a significant population base to warrant a McD's. Take Melville for comparison purposes.

And we should all disregard the westerns in the decisions regarding teams and locations in the SBAAHL. The westerns are not for Sask regardless of what we do so we might as well split the SV zone now because who gives a hoot if the host team wins one and at most two games at that event? Utterly meaningless in the big picture.

Great post with that train of thought saskatoon should have at least 8 teams since they have that many mcdonalds locations.......wow

 

[Superbowlfishca]

Mcdonalds Quote

Too Funny!!

 

[TitanJofaDaoust]

Great post with that train of thought saskatoon should have at least 8 teams since they have that many mcdonalds locations.......wow

This sir, is hilarious. However, I do agree that Saskatoon could support 3 teams. Not sure how Regina after all these years doesn't have 2.

 

[nah68]

This sir, is hilarious. However, I do agree that Saskatoon could support 3 teams. Not sure how Regina after all these years doesn't have 2.

I may actually agree with you about dropping to 3 teams if that is the reasoning behind splitting SV. Next year Saskatoon with 4 teams will dominate the top 5 spots. It makes no sense as to why split one team in the whole province. Sha was the rocket scientists that blew the leagues up before, and have tampered with it ever since both Regina and Saskatoon haven't stopped complaining about both SV and P storm being too strong. Its the same scenario over and over, everyone in the province has to dance to the urban tunes. Just ask SHA the amount of rural representatives on the board who made the recommendations for changes! It will never change, we just have to adapt to the way our urban friends see fit.

 

[TitanJofaDaoust]

I may actually agree with you about dropping to 3 teams if that is the reasoning behind splitting SV. Next year Saskatoon with 4 teams will dominate the top 5 spots. It makes no sense as to why split one team in the whole province. Sha was the rocket scientists that blew the leagues up before, and have tampered with it ever since both Regina and Saskatoon haven't stopped complaining about both SV and P storm being too strong. Its the same scenario over and over, everyone in the province has to dance to the urban tunes. Just ask SHA the amount of rural representatives on the board who made the recommendations for changes! It will never change, we just have to adapt to the way our urban friends see fit.

I meant 3 AAA midget teams in Stoon and 2 in Regina. Saskatoon bantam should have stayed at 5 - I agree.

 

[nah68]

I meant 3 AAA midget teams in Stoon and 2 in Regina. Saskatoon bantam should have stayed at 5 - I agree.

I think from looking at standings its hard to dispute that 4 teams seems to be the right number for the city. As for the midget teams increasing? Would disagree with you, Saskatoon has a hard time to be a top end team with 2 teams fighting for top kids, and contacts usually getting the better of the talent. And both teams missed playoffs this year.

 

[Nottahockeyguy]

I may actually agree with you about dropping to 3 teams if that is the reasoning behind splitting SV. Next year Saskatoon with 4 teams will dominate the top 5 spots. It makes no sense as to why split one team in the whole province. Sha was the rocket scientists that blew the leagues up before, and have tampered with it ever since both Regina and Saskatoon haven't stopped complaining about both SV and P storm being too strong. Its the same scenario over and over, everyone in the province has to dance to the urban tunes. Just ask SHA the amount of rural representatives on the board who made the recommendations for changes! It will never change, we just have to adapt to the way our urban friends see fit.

You really have a complex about us vs them when it comes to urban vs rural and you twist the point about the McD's. But let me speak slower for you...a McD's implies a a large population base and serving area that makes a team combined with Warman suspect. In fact, wikipedia shows a population of 7,716 for Martensville. That stat combined with other evidence of a large population (such as a McD's) warrants splitting the zone. This isn't a urban decision at all its an adaptation to the realities of the changing face of the province.

 

[svhockey]

You really have a complex about us vs them when it comes to urban vs rural and you twist the point about the McD's. But let me speak slower for you...a McD's implies a a large population base and serving area that makes a team combined with Warman suspect. In fact, wikipedia shows a population of 7,716 for Martensville. That stat combined with other evidence of a large population (such as a McD's) warrants splitting the zone. This isn't a urban decision at all its an adaptation to the realities of the changing face of the province.

FyI according to sha registration numbers, martensville has 154 bantam players in their area, pa about 100, West central 95 and north East 105. Weyburn only 77 and prairie storm about 130.

 

[nah68]

You really have a complex about us vs them when it comes to urban vs rural and you twist the point about the McD's. But let me speak slower for you...a McD's implies a a large population base and serving area that makes a team combined with Warman suspect. In fact, wikipedia shows a population of 7,716 for Martensville. That stat combined with other evidence of a large population (such as a McD's) warrants splitting the zone. This isn't a urban decision at all its an adaptation to the realities of the changing face of the province.

Really? C'mon, you want to use the population thing as a guide for number of teams? That's funny....cause Saskatoon has a drawing population of around 240K for 4 teams. That is why you have 8 mcdonalds locations...hint hint. So you posted that's why we should split SV. Give me the real reason why? Not some load of malarkey about population and having other extra circular activities for kids to sway away from hockey. If you do the math the city has 60k population for one team, regina has 80k population.....hmmmm! And as for the split between urban and rural, sorry that's a fact, just take a look at what has happened in the league so far. Cities dropped teams to become competitive and now have lobbied to split there competition. Like I said we'll dance to the urban beat, but if this was such a big deal why didn't SHA in all there glory fix the problem in WC and NB?? Rural!

 

[nah68]

FyI according to sha registration numbers, martensville has 154 bantam players in their area, pa about 100, West central 95 and north East 105. Weyburn only 77 and prairie storm about 130.

I get that.....but honestly do you think Warmans and Martensvilles numbers will stay that high for a long time? Most young communities that boom will have bigger registration numbers once that boom group has moved through. I say good for the 2 communities involving so many kids in the game, and keeping the cost to play lower than our city counterparts. The real question is this? Why in a city of 240k is there so few kids actually playing the game? Is it cost? Involvement? Ice availability? What is it? I actually say split SV only on the condition that the GSHL rezone there borders back to city borders, not half way to Dundurn. That is why it bothers me so much about the rural and urban split. GSHL makes borders to serve there hockey community, yet when zones come kids from acreages are in zone 5! It really doesn't make sense.

 

[SaskRinkRat]

What do the respective minor hockey associations (Warman, Martensville) think about the proposed change to split them up?

 

[Nottahockeyguy]

Really? C'mon, you want to use the population thing as a guide for number of teams? That's funny....cause Saskatoon has a drawing population of around 240K for 4 teams. That is why you have 8 mcdonalds locations...hint hint. So you posted that's why we should split SV. Give me the real reason why? Not some load of malarkey about population and having other extra circular activities for kids to sway away from hockey. If you do the math the city has 60k population for one team, regina has 80k population.....hmmmm! And as for the split between urban and rural, sorry that's a fact, just take a look at what has happened in the league so far. Cities dropped teams to become competitive and now have lobbied to split there competition. Like I said we'll dance to the urban beat, but if this was such a big deal why didn't SHA in all there glory fix the problem in WC and NB?? Rural!

Sometimes its about population however another consideration is the number of players in that population group. We all know that there were more boys trying out for SV than what some of the cities experienced for their 4 in Saskatoon or 3 in Regina. Regina alone has approx 300 bantam players in all tiers yet has to field three BAA teams (warranting the reduction of teams in Stoon and Regina -not some farcical theory about urban manipulation of the SHA). Martensville has 150 bantam players as indicated in this forum...so now the argument is that the population growth will diminish over time and the competitiveness of a Martensville only team will suffer? So what is preferred, an unfair player population advantage in the near term or an a split based on known numbers?

 

[svhockey]

Martensville and Warman Hockey numbers increase even more in the younger age groups. They each have something like 7 or 8 novice teams and in the 100 range in their initiation programs.
One would assume they would want their own team. Only makes sense. Meadow lake and Melville are wanting to keep their teams, why would associations that size not want their own team. Both have their own pw aa and midget aa teams but one team combined in bantam aa and that bantam league is larger than the pw and midget.

 

[nah68]

Sometimes its about population however another consideration is the number of players in that population group. We all know that there were more boys trying out for SV than what some of the cities experienced for their 4 in Saskatoon or 3 in Regina. Regina alone has approx 300 bantam players in all tiers yet has to field three BAA teams (warranting the reduction of teams in Stoon and Regina -not some farcical theory about urban manipulation of the SHA). Martensville has 150 bantam players as indicated in this forum...so now the argument is that the population growth will diminish over time and the competitiveness of a Martensville only team will suffer? So what is preferred, an unfair player population advantage in the near term or an a split based on known numbers?

I'm glad you brought this up....So why... is the question that there is so many young kids involved in the game of hockey in Martensville and Warman? Or even better take a small community of 250 kids and they have a bantam team? The question that needs to be answered is this, the fact that Saskatoon and regina have the lowest per capita registration numbers in the province. Very interesting, I'm going with number one cost, then commitment(from parents), and finally smha themselves, including the city who has dropped the ball on not having a multi function facility to house the amount of hockey. When you say registration number you do realize that at the bantam level there is already a split in the quality of kids. just cause Sv has 60 kids at camp does that make all 60 kids available to play bantam aa. You didn't watch SV this season then if you believe that. The way the city is going there is less and less kids being drafted out of a bigger population....why? The ODR in the cities hardly ever get used anymore? why? When you walk into Mvilles rink do you see the buzz on the ODR? The problem lies in your hockey community not the provinces, you may want to look at that before tweaking others.

 

[SaskRinkRat]

I'm glad you brought this up....So why... is the question that there is so many young kids involved in the game of hockey in Martensville and Warman? Or even better take a small community of 250 kids and they have a bantam team? The question that needs to be answered is this, the fact that Saskatoon and regina have the lowest per capita registration numbers in the province. Very interesting, I'm going with number one cost, then commitment(from parents), and finally smha themselves, including the city who has dropped the ball on not having a multi function facility to house the amount of hockey. When you say registration number you do realize that at the bantam level there is already a split in the quality of kids. just cause Sv has 60 kids at camp does that make all 60 kids available to play bantam aa. You didn't watch SV this season then if you believe that. The way the city is going there is less and less kids being drafted out of a bigger population....why? The ODR in the cities hardly ever get used anymore? why? When you walk into Mvilles rink do you see the buzz on the ODR? The problem lies in your hockey community not the provinces, you may want to look at that before tweaking others.

You raise some valid point here, but I think there are a few different issues getting confused in this conversation. Here's my take on what those are:

If there are enough bantam aged kids registering for hockey in Martensville and Warman to justify two teams, then there should probably be two teams. This is a separate issue from why relatively more kids are registering there than in other places. The number of teams needs to be based on participation level, not based on the causes of that participation level. I don't think we can say, for example "the kids in your community like hockey (compared to other activities) more than the kids in another community, so as a reward you guys get to concentrate your talent more".

It may well be that there is something controllable that's causing kids in the cities to shun hockey as an activity - maybe it has to do with cost, maybe it has to do with SMHA, etc. But those causes are basically irrelevant to the question at hand: how many teams should each area have?

That said, participation in the sport (and reasons for the lackthereof) should be something that we consider on a larger scale - how can we grow the game, how can we develop hockey players, etc. Unfortunately, though, that's beside the point of this current discussion. The number of teams needs to reflect the reality of the current situation - what is, not what should be or what could be or what is going to be.

 

[Nottahockeyguy]

You raise some valid point here, but I think there are a few different issues getting confused in this conversation. Here's my take on what those are:

If there are enough bantam aged kids registering for hockey in Martensville and Warman to justify two teams, then there should probably be two teams. This is a separate issue from why relatively more kids are registering there than in other places. The number of teams needs to be based on participation level, not based on the causes of that participation level. I don't think we can say, for example "the kids in your community like hockey (compared to other activities) more than the kids in another community, so as a reward you guys get to concentrate your talent more".

It may well be that there is something controllable that's causing kids in the cities to shun hockey as an activity - maybe it has to do with cost, maybe it has to do with SMHA, etc. But those causes are basically irrelevant to the question at hand: how many teams should each area have?

That said, participation in the sport (and reasons for the lackthereof) should be something that we consider on a larger scale - how can we grow the game, how can we develop hockey players, etc. Unfortunately, though, that's beside the point of this current discussion. The number of teams needs to reflect the reality of the current situation - what is, not what should be or what could be or what is going to be.

I agree...some intermingling of discussion threads makes it hard to have a logical discussion. I will focus on the participation rates of athletes choosing to play hockey.

The participation rate is key....Like I said, athletes in the cities have more options and don't necessarily pursue hockey careers. Its not that they shun hockey at all. The smaller centres have the advantage of a higher participation rate and the means to identify the best athletes and aggregate them in their AA hockey programs for the winter and likely baseball for the summer. This formula has worked recently for Yorkton and at times in the past for Melville, Humboldt, PA etc. (for example) where the core nucleus of their championship teams were 8 to 10 local boys who were identified and developed from initiation, novice onwards (and having 8 to 10 high-end boys concentrated on one team is the magic formula to make a contender in the SBAAHL). Note, this formula fails miserably when the development of that core group in the smaller centres doesn't occur due to a variety of reasons i.e. what has happened in Melville?

The city teams can rarely pursue a similar strategy because they need to develop not 8 or 10 but 30 plus players to distribute among their 4 or 3 teams. Unfortunately they seem incapable of generating that number so the 12 or 15 highend city players are dispersed across 3 or 4 teams resulting in middle of the pack teams in the SBAAHL and highend players denied the opportunity to play together. The true answer for the cities lies in improving the participation rate in hockey and developing a larger core of highend players because the pool of talent is too thin once these teams hit the SBAAHL. This is seriously affecting the development of highend players in the cities.

In turn, the smaller centres have to keep up the good work they are doing in terms of participation rates and, as importantly, they have to identify and take hold of that core group early and bring them along then compliment their teams with the small town additions like Yorkton does with some Kamsack players for example. The answer doesn't lie in melding two communities to have that magic number of 8 to 10 highend players. Agreed that it is unfortunate that this was left to happen in Saskatchewan but the way to correct it is to look five or six years ahead and plan accordingly.

 

[nah68]

I agree...some intermingling of discussion threads makes it hard to have a logical discussion. I will focus on the participation rates of athletes choosing to play hockey.

The participation rate is key....Like I said, athletes in the cities have more options and don't necessarily pursue hockey careers. Its not that they shun hockey at all. The smaller centres have the advantage of a higher participation rate and the means to identify the best athletes and aggregate them in their AA hockey programs for the winter and likely baseball for the summer. This formula has worked recently for Yorkton and at times in the past for Melville, Humboldt, PA etc. (for example) where the core nucleus of their championship teams were 8 to 10 local boys who were identified and developed from initiation, novice onwards (and having 8 to 10 high-end boys concentrated on one team is the magic formula to make a contender in the SBAAHL). Note, this formula fails miserably when the development of that core group in the smaller centres doesn't occur due to a variety of reasons i.e. what has happened in Melville?

The city teams can rarely pursue a similar strategy because they need to develop not 8 or 10 but 30 plus players to distribute among their 4 or 3 teams. Unfortunately they seem incapable of generating that number so the 12 or 15 highend city players are dispersed across 3 or 4 teams resulting in middle of the pack teams in the SBAAHL and highend players denied the opportunity to play together. The true answer for the cities lies in improving the participation rate in hockey and developing a larger core of highend players because the pool of talent is too thin once these teams hit the SBAAHL. This is seriously affecting the development of highend players in the cities.

In turn, the smaller centres have to keep up the good work they are doing in terms of participation rates and, as importantly, they have to identify and take hold of that core group early and bring them along then compliment their teams with the small town additions like Yorkton does with some Kamsack players for example. The answer doesn't lie in melding two communities to have that magic number of 8 to 10 highend players. Agreed that it is unfortunate that this was left to happen in Saskatchewan but the way to correct it is to look five or six years ahead and plan accordingly.

You changed your tune from population to now registered players.....if registered players are the key we should abolish the ND teams both because there draw numbers far exceed any center in the province.

If I was on NB minor hockey board I'd be having face to face meetings with WC to join to make 1 team. Sha is crippling SV and now have set there numbers to be the lowest in the north. As for Saskatoon....somehow they lobbied to keep the registered rec bantam players out of the equation for registered kids....interesting seeing as it probably equals tier 3 in most centers.

If you looked at standings I'm not quite sure if we ever had a league with more parody....Next year at this time we will have the discussion why one of either Mville or Warman will be bottom 3.....not just for one year either but for a long time.

This league was setup to be a more consistent league to develop high end kids at a top end level. We are going in reverse by doing this, and before too long teams that will get killed will pack it in. Martensvile may hang on for a bit, but if the local board decided to pack it in what would happen then? Finally SHA is changing its motto on zones, instead of there being zone hockey they will be switching it to 5 quadrants that will be equally divided. So there won't be any more zone hockey, it will switch to the best kids in the province divided between 5 teams. Is that backwards from what there doing by adding another team?

 

[SaskRinkRat]

I still think it would be interesting to know what the minor hockey associations in Warman and Martensville think of the proposed change. I've heard that there is some support for the idea of splitting. If you think about it, it makes sense. If you were running a minor hockey association and it seemed like you were consistently in a situation where you had several kids who are AA calibre missing out on AA spots, AND those spots were being filled by kids OUTSIDE of your association, you might see a split as a desirable thing that would benefit the development of kids in your association.

I guess I'm just trying to figure out whether this is totally just big bad SHA forcing a change down Sask Valley's throat or if maybe the associations are seeing it as advantageous from a development standpoint.

 

[nah68]

I still think it would be interesting to know what the minor hockey associations in Warman and Martensville think of the proposed change. I've heard that there is some support for the idea of splitting. If you think about it, it makes sense. If you were running a minor hockey association and it seemed like you were consistently in a situation where you had several kids who are AA calibre missing out on AA spots, AND those spots were being filled by kids OUTSIDE of your association, you might see a split as a desirable thing that would benefit the development of kids in your association.

I guess I'm just trying to figure out whether this is totally just big bad SHA forcing a change down Sask Valley's throat or if maybe the associations are seeing it as advantageous from a development standpoint.

For once I'll agree with you, but I'm not arguing in favour if warman who believes they are the hub of hockey in sask.....just ask anyone from there. And maybe martensville thinks the same, if so close your borders and develop your own kids if that's what you desire. But the closest centre rule applies so rural kids at a huge disadvantage. Warman will load coaching staff with there supposed superstar coaches and friends of friends. And of course there's the.....well if a out of town kid isn't hands down better than warman kid we will take the warman kid. Sv ran cause the coaches were neutral, took the top kids and built a team. That will change, and can't wait for warman to go westerns...maybe it'll wake up warman minor.

 

[svhockey]

For once I'll agree with you, but I'm not arguing in favour if warman who believes they are the hub of hockey in sask.....just ask anyone from there. And maybe martensville thinks the same, if so close your borders and develop your own kids if that's what you desire. But the closest centre rule applies so rural kids at a huge disadvantage. Warman will load coaching staff with there supposed superstar coaches and friends of friends. And of course there's the.....well if a out of town kid isn't hands down better than warman kid we will take the warman kid. Sv ran cause the coaches were neutral, took the top kids and built a team. That will change, and can't wait for warman to go westerns...maybe it'll wake up warman minor.

Any smart hockey association would take one of their own over an outside player if the two players were basically even. Besides it is the urban kids that are at the disadvantage over rural. Rural kids can get cut by one center and try for the next and get cut again and keep trying until they make a team. City kids get cut by AA they have no other options. They go straight to A
I doubt Warman is too worried about how they will do at Westerns. You don't see too many people worried about how the Contacts will do at AAA Westerns this season and they didn't even make the playoffs. No Saskatchewan Bantam team will ever do well at that tournament so who cares. And if they do it will be a once every 10 year thing.
If Warman and Martensville were smart they would want their own teams. Why wouldn't they. You don't see Melville trying to join with Yorkton or Weyburn with Estevan.
Both centers have strong hockey coming up. They will have their ups and downs but as if those two centers won't be on an even playing field with Humboldt, Melville, Swift, Weyburn, Moose Jaw, North Battleford and so on from year to year.

 

[nah68]

Any smart hockey association would take one of their own over an outside player if the two players were basically even. Besides it is the urban kids that are at the disadvantage over rural. Rural kids can get cut by one center and try for the next and get cut again and keep trying until they make a team. City kids get cut by AA they have no other options. They go straight to A
I doubt Warman is too worried about how they will do at Westerns. You don't see too many people worried about how the Contacts will do at AAA Westerns this season and they didn't even make the playoffs. No Saskatchewan Bantam team will ever do well at that tournament so who cares. And if they do it will be a once every 10 year thing.
If Warman and Martensville were smart they would want their own teams. Why wouldn't they. You don't see Melville trying to join with Yorkton or Weyburn with Estevan.
Both centers have strong hockey coming up. They will have their ups and downs but as if those two centers won't be on an even playing field with Humboldt, Melville, Swift, Weyburn, Moose Jaw, North Battleford and so on from year to year.

Perfect then.....then when a out of town kid come b4 warman camp with a release in hand you won't have problems signing it. Lol.....lol! Warman can release those kids to tryout wherever. But then again you'll lose the 50 dollar camp fee. Last 4 bantam aa teams from sv have had how many warman and martensville kids drafted? And how many this year will be? You'll change your tune once you go 8 and 23, and if you won't you are a special case.

 

[nah68]

And to me it's all about competing with our neighbouring provinces. There playing aaa bantam yet we want to try develop kids playing aa.....not going to happen. The only reason that I see for warman wanting a extra team is personal agendas of warman minor. They crunch numbers and see that 20 spots available to strictly warman kids is better than about 3-5 what normally is on that team.

 

[SaskRinkRat]

And to me it's all about competing with our neighbouring provinces.

This is not only impossible, it would be really dumb.

In order to complete, SK would have to go to 8-10 teams to even out the population base with its neighboring provinces. And the sole benefit of doing so would be that one single team gets to go play one extra tournament on one extra weekend.