Value of: Sami Vatanen before the deadline

[405Exit]

I doubt SY would do that. I'm not sure the value is there (I'm not a scout & don't watch him), but tempting b/c I know he's good. UFA in 2.4 seasons, good cap hit, about to be 26 next week & iirc good defensively, chips in offense. Is he a true #1, or a elite/very good #2 relative to all 30 other teams? Would he be a #1 or #2 on a SC contender? #1 on PO team/PO bubble team?

He would definitely be arguably a number 1 on a SC team. Nothing less than a number 2. But he is definitely top pairing. Anyone else who says otherwise doesn’t know who Hampus Lindholm is.

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

He would definitely be arguably a number 1 on a SC team. Nothing less than a number 2. But he is definitely top pairing. Anyone else who says otherwise doesn’t know who Hampus Lindholm is.

Knew he was top pairing, just saw his career O #'s weren't the 40-60 range, so I thought he was closer to #2 (without studying all the advanced metrics). I'll take your word for it though.

 

[405Exit]

Knew he was top pairing, just saw his career O #'s weren't the 40-60 range, so I thought he was closer to #2 (without studying all the advanced metrics). I'll take your word for it though.

Lindholm is more of a defensive defenseman imo. He’s not gonna put up crazy numbers. But he will definitely chip in on offense when you need it. If Lindholm became available? 90% of the boards fans would be in on him click of a button. Only interest Ducks should have though is a top 3 pick. That’s the only way we move em.

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

Lindholm is more of a defensive defenseman imo. He’s not gonna put up crazy numbers. But he will definitely chip in on offense when you need it. If Lindholm became available? 90% of the boards fans would be in on him click of a button. Only interest Ducks should have though is a top 3 pick. That’s the only way we move em.

It's probably too soon to know but what's the speculation on his next contract, term & $? Also, since the Ducks aren't known for offense in recent years, do you think he'd put up more pts in a more open system? Once our rebuild is closer to completion we should have a good 5+ ? year window with lots of talent on O & D.

 

[Flyer lurker]

Vanatan is the one player who I can see a team over paying for a rental. Colorado for example. I can see where they think they are 1 top 4 d-man from the cup. Predicting Vanatan will get more value back than Krieder which will tick ranger fans off. I don't think a 1 and under 25 depth player is asking too much. Tampa Bay is they keep streaking I would say same thing.

 

[405Exit]

It's probably too soon to know but what's the speculation on his next contract, term & $? Also, since the Ducks aren't known for offense in recent years, do you think he'd put up more pts in a more open system? Once our rebuild is closer to completion we should have a good 5+ ? year window with lots of talent on O & D.

Not sure what he’s expecting after his current contract. I wouldn’t expect much. He isn’t a Karlsson. And yes he would definitely put up a lot more points with a good top 6 core. The fact of the matter is, Ducks were last in the league in scoring last year. And this year seems to be the same ole Trend. How are you gonna put up points when your entire top 9 are garbage? You aren’t.

 

[Brett44]

1st+Zadorov+ Jost
For

Vatanen+ Zacha or Coleman

 

[Zezel22]

Why? The asking price should be a first. I mean that’s what they basically paid for when they first got em from Anaheim. Henrique imo is equal to a first and even more when the trade happen. New Jersey shouldn’t sell him for anything cheaper than a first ++

What are you asking "why?" about? Sounds like we agree - they need to trade him.

I'm not one of the people saying the Devils are "rudderless" "have no direction" etc. If they don't trade Vatanen at the deadline I will join that chorus. Its a no brainer

 

[Zezel22]

Admitting that I'm right about that but in a totally different thread is baller as hell.

I'm missing something. You're right about what? That they had high value guys to trade? Don't think thats debateable. But they were decisive in doing it. Will the Devils do the same with Vatanen, who is one guy they do have? If they don't, they don't deserve to have the progress the Rangers have, and won't.

They also drafted well - better than the Devils. They used those assets productively.

The fact that the Rangers have advantages - they have a obvious geographic/market advantage and in this case they also had an advantage of having more assets of value to convert into future assets - does not account for why they lapped the Devils after starting 2.5 years later. It's a factor, but the point is if the devils made more correct decisions, were decisive, the Rangers would not have passed them in the "process" so easily even with their advantages.

The Rangers have always had the advantage of being in a bigger market with more people wanting to play there... and in the past also had more cash to spend... I think with the advent of the hard cap and Harris/Blitzer money, the cash part is probably not such a big factor. But back then the Devils were smarter. Now, they havent been. Thats the difference. If the Devils had been smarter their 2.5 year head start would be more than enough to overcome the fact that Nash, McDonaugh, Zuccarello etc have more trade value then their guys did.

 

[Zezel22]

The Rangers passed the devils so fast because they are in NYC and people want to play there. Born becsuse they had better asset management. Panarin- FA, Trouba- demanded to play in NYC or Detroit, Fox- demanded to play in NYC

As I said in previous post, the Rangers have always had that advantage. The Devils overcame that by being smarter. Now that has not been the case.

 

[Zezel22]

1st+Zadorov+ Jost
For

Vatanen+ Zacha or Coleman

I'd do this for Devils with Zacha instead of Coleman

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

1st+Zadorov+ Jost
For

Vatanen+ Zacha or Coleman

deal assuming its Zacha

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

I'm missing something. You're right about what? That they had high value guys to trade? Don't think thats debateable. But they were decisive in doing it. Will the Devils do the same with Vatanen, who is one guy they do have? If they don't, they don't deserve to have the progress the Rangers have, and won't.

They also drafted well - better than the Devils. They used those assets productively.

The fact that the Rangers have advantages - they have a obvious geographic/market advantage and in this case they also had an advantage of having more assets of value to convert into future assets - does not account for why they lapped the Devils after starting 2.5 years later. It's a factor, but the point is if the devils made more correct decisions, were decisive, the Rangers would not have passed them in the "process" so easily even with their advantages.

The Rangers have always had the advantage of being in a bigger market with more people wanting to play there... and in the past also had more cash to spend... I think with the advent of the hard cap and Harris/Blitzer money, the cash part is probably not such a big factor. But back then the Devils were smarter. Now, they havent been. Thats the difference. If the Devils had been smarter their 2.5 year head start would be more than enough to overcome the fact that Nash, McDonaugh, Zuccarello etc have more trade value then their guys did.

This is nonsense. The Rangers were able to land a star in free agency due to being the Rangers. They were able to get Trouba to force his way to NY (even though he hasnt been good). Same with Adam Fox. They were able to get 3 or 4 extra first round picks for expiring assets that they had which the Devils were not. To completely just dismiss that is hogwash.

THATS why they were able to catch up to the Devils. They didn't "make better decisions". The end.

 

[AfroThunder396]

The NYR goaltending also masks a lot of problems they have with team structure, especially on defense.

Put Louis Domingue or Cory Schneider behind a D that gives up as many chances as NYR and let's see where they are in the standings.

 

[Zezel22]

This is nonsense. The Rangers were able to land a star in free agency due to being the Rangers. They were able to get Trouba to force his way to NY (even though he hasnt been good). Same with Adam Fox. They were able to get 3 or 4 extra first round picks for expiring assets that they had which the Devils were not. To completely just dismiss that is hogwash.

THATS why they were able to catch up to the Devils. They didn't "make better decisions". The end.

They didn't just catch up to the Devils, they caught up to the Devils and passed right by. To make thaat statement I'm looking at the NHL standings, the player ages, the AHL standings, farm system rankings done by analysts and prospect rankings done by analysts. Having a little history on here with you, I'm assuming that your view is that you know better than the paid analysts but thats all I have to go on at this time.

As I said the Rangers have advantages over the Devils that they have always had. If anything, the Devils have gained ground in that category by (probably) having close to equal cash muscles. The idea of players and free agents being attracted to NYC over NJ is the case and has always been the case. The Devils beat that (and beat it soundly) by drafting better and being smarter, which they no longer are.

Even if you want to say the Devils drafts have been on par with the Rangers, which I strongly disagree with, the fact is thats not good enough. It has to be alot better. Not fair, but that is the hand they have been dealt. If the Devils are not going to draft better and be smarter, then they have zero shot because the advantages you speak of are permanent and not changing.

As to the players you mentioned, the Rangers used a 1st Rd pick obtained via the sale of an expiring asset to make the Trouba trade. No matter where Trouba wanted to play, if the Rangers did not have that extra pick to use, that trade was likely not happening. They weren't going to trade the lottery pick for Trouba and I suppose you can argue they may have been able to trade their 2nd Rd pick with add-ons but its dicey.

Fox was traded to the Rangers for the 2nd Rd pick that they didn't have to make part of a Trouba trade. Very convenient for the Rangers that he wanted to play there, but at the same time Will Butcher chose the Devils. Both teams have a young D-Man who chose them, it actually cost the rangers more.

The point in this thread is that the Devils need to trade Vatanen. It seems as if the price on Vatanen is not too far from Kevin Hayes last year, and we see what the Rangers did with that asset - they got Trouba. If the Devils are going to sign a 29 year old undersized DMan with concussion history who will at best be in his 30's if/when the devils have a punchers chance than they deserve what they get.

 

[AvsGuy]

I know you were just responding to another poster, but Jost and Helleson are not what the Devils need anyway. They have more centers than they know what to do with, and they have a bunch of mid-tier defensive prospects in the system that are 3-4 years away. Why would Colorado want to move Graves if he's playing that well?

I don't particularly want to, but I do think moving him now would be selling high. I like him as a player and he's made great strides at both ends of the ice, but his stats are masking some defensive issues. Ideally we need a great LHD to play with Makar, and while he's the lesser evil of Colorado's options at LHD (Cole, Zadorov, Barberio), he's not the ideal guy playing 1st pairing minutes. Girard is great but the Avs have split him and Makar up, presumably to spread around the puck moving talent.

He'd be a perfect fit on a strong team's 3rd pairing, and if he keeps improving, you can safely call him a top 4 guy. Which is already more than we ever expected when we got him for the corpse of Chris Bigras.

1st+Zadorov+ Jost
For

Vatanen+ Zacha or Coleman

Zacha is basically Jost at this point. Coleman is by far the more valuable asset considering Colorado needs a true 3C.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

They didn't just catch up to the Devils, they caught up to the Devils and passed right by. To make thaat statement I'm looking at the NHL standings, the player ages, the AHL standings, farm system rankings done by analysts and prospect rankings done by analysts. Having a little history on here with you, I'm assuming that your view is that you know better than the paid analysts but thats all I have to go on at this time.

As I said the Rangers have advantages over the Devils that they have always had. If anything, the Devils have gained ground in that category by (probably) having close to equal cash muscles. The idea of players and free agents being attracted to NYC over NJ is the case and has always been the case. The Devils beat that (and beat it soundly) by drafting better and being smarter, which they no longer are.

Even if you want to say the Devils drafts have been on par with the Rangers, which I strongly disagree with, the fact is thats not good enough. It has to be alot better. Not fair, but that is the hand they have been dealt. If the Devils are not going to draft better and be smarter, then they have zero shot because the advantages you speak of are permanent and not changing.

As to the players you mentioned, the Rangers used a 1st Rd pick obtained via the sale of an expiring asset to make the Trouba trade. No matter where Trouba wanted to play, if the Rangers did not have that extra pick to use, that trade was likely not happening. They weren't going to trade the lottery pick for Trouba and I suppose you can argue they may have been able to trade their 2nd Rd pick with add-ons but its dicey.

Fox was traded to the Rangers for the 2nd Rd pick that they didn't have to make part of a Trouba trade. Very convenient for the Rangers that he wanted to play there, but at the same time Will Butcher chose the Devils. Both teams have a young D-Man who chose them, it actually cost the rangers more.

The point in this thread is that the Devils need to trade Vatanen. It seems as if the price on Vatanen is not too far from Kevin Hayes last year, and we see what the Rangers did with that asset - they got Trouba. If the Devils are going to sign a 29 year old undersized DMan with concussion history who will at best be in his 30's if/when the devils have a punchers chance than they deserve what they get.

Again, most of this is nonsense....it sounds like you should go become a Rangers fan since you are so envious of them.

AHL standings? Lol! good grief. Tell me you really didn't just bring that up as a serious argument?

the Rangers have had SIX first round picks in the last 3 years compared to the Devils 3. And they used another one for Trouba....so seven total. That is a huge difference and you just disregarding that is hilarious. I would honestly be worried for them if their rebuild wasn't going faster than NJ's given that fact...

 

[Peter Sidorkiewicz]

Zacha is basically Jost at this point. Coleman is by far the more valuable asset considering Colorado needs a true 3C.

Zacha is more of a true 3C than Coleman.

Coleman has been a winger for past 2-3 seasons. He can fill in at center if you have injuries but Zacha is the more natural option.

 

[Jyssy]

From following Vatanen since junior he really seems the kind of guy whose playing his best hockey in years because it's his contract year. I expect him to take at least a semi-vacation next season after cashing in.

 

[traffic cone]

From following Vatanen since junior he really seems the kind of guy whose playing his best hockey in years because it's his contract year. I expect him to take at least a semi-vacation next season after cashing in.

Wouldn't that mean he's the perfect rental then?

 

[tony d]

I think he would get back a 1st round pick and a decent prospect as well.

 

[Zezel22]

Again, most of this is nonsense....it sounds like you should go become a Rangers fan since you are so envious of them.

AHL standings? Lol! good grief. Tell me you really didn't just bring that up as a serious argument?

the Rangers have had SIX first round picks in the last 3 years compared to the Devils 3. And they used another one for Trouba....so seven total. That is a huge difference and you just disregarding that is hilarious. I would honestly be worried for them if their rebuild wasn't going faster than NJ's given that fact...

All of this is relative to Ray Shero, the future of the Devils and trading Sami Vatanen. If you read what I wrote, I have never denied the fact that the Rangers have had more picks via more assets to trade. I've said that their decisiveness in trading those assets for new, young assets is as much attributable to their lapping the Devils as the assets themselves are. The Rangers had those assets, yes... If they decided to re-sign guys like Zuccarello and McDonaugh then they would not be where they are today. Thats what we are talking about with Vatanen right now. And to a lesser extent, your boy Greene and Simmonds.

The AHL team is awful and has been for Shero's entire tenure. I would say that the win/loss record of the AHL team is one of the least significant metrics of the ones having been discussed (and I mentioned the others - all of which the Devils have fallen well behind NYR and others), but its part of your organization, its part of your player development system (a big part), and when its consistently terrible its fair to ask why, and to argue that they would benefit from a better operation in Binghampton. I don't know why you would be fine with that if you are Devils ownership.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

I see the term “top prospect” thrown around a lot but people seem to neglect the fact that they don’t get traded. The best prospect traded in recent years was Erik Brannstrom who was traded for a Selke nominated PPG forward in his prime with an 8 year extension agreed on.

 

[Zezel22]

The Rangers passed the devils so fast because they are in NYC and people want to play there. Born becsuse they had better asset management. Panarin- FA, Trouba- demanded to play in NYC or Detroit, Fox- demanded to play in NYC

Interesting that today The Athletic ran an article about how difficult it is for Knicks players to travel in between their homes in Manhattan and the MSG practice facility in Westchester, sometimes taking as much as 3 hours. The Rangers players are obviously in the same boat.

The Devils are 1 of 2 teams in the NHL with their practice facility attached to their game arena. Thats an advantage. You could make the argument that living in Jersey City and commuting 15 minutes to both practice and games is a better NYC lifestyle than living in Manhattan or Westchester as a MSG athlete.

It's not a huge thing, but its a thing, and maybe the Devils have to sell it better. The Devils need to find a way to overcome the advantages that not just the Rangers have, but that any team has over them. That's the job. Thats what I'm paying you to do if I am Harris/Blitzer. If the advantages are insurmountable, than there is no point to any of this. But we know its not insurmountable because we have seen it done for many years. The difference was always that the Devils were smarter, more efficient etc. Now that is not the case, so yes, the Rangers will continue to pass them with the baked in advantages they have if that stays the same moving forward.

Here is the article if you are interested and have a subscription.

Think your commute to work is bad? The Knicks can...

“It’s essentially a road game,” Payton said. “Where I grew up and where I went to college at, it’s a two-hour drive. Some days it takes me an hour and a half to get to the Garden. It’s like I’m driving to college every day. To play a game.”

 

[traffic cone]

I see the term “top prospect” thrown around a lot but people seem to neglect the fact that they don’t get traded. The best prospect traded in recent years was Erik Brannstrom who was traded for a Selke nominated PPG forward in his prime with an 8 year extension agreed on.

Maybe people mean high-end prospects.

I agree that Vatanen as a rental definitely won't get a top prospect from anyone. Or anyone like Brannstrom.