Sam Pollock Division Semi Finals - New Jersey Swamp Devils (1) vs Oakland Skates (4)

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"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
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NJ Swamp Devils (1)

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Coach: Ken Hitchcock
Assistant/PP Coach: Bob Johnson

Vladimir Krutov - Sid Abel (C) - Guy Lafleur
Boris Mayorov (A) - Vyacheslav Starshinov - Bobby Bauer
Tony Leswick - Cooney Weiland - Mush March
Ab McDonald - Mike Ricci - Tim Kerr

Allan Stanley - Earl Seibert (A)
Vladimir Lutchenko - Flash Hollett
Vasili Pervukhin - Doug Young

George Hainsworth
Ben Bishop

PP1:
Tim Kerr
- Vladimir Krutov - Sid Abel - Guy Lafleur
Flash Hollett

PP2:
Boris Mayorov - Vyacheslav Starshinov - Bobby Bauer
Allan Stanley - Earl Seibert

PK1: Cooney Weiland - Tony Leswick - Allan Stanley - Earl Seibert
PK2: Viachelsav Starshinov - Mush Marsh - Vladimir Lutchenko - Doug Young
PK3: Vladimir Krutov - Sid Abel

Spares: Jack Evans (D), Steve Sullivan (F)

Estimated Ice Time

Forwards
NameESPPPK Total
Vladimir Krutov144119
Sid Abel 144119
Guy Lafleur 164*20
Boris Mayorov13316
Vladimir Starshinov133218
Bobby Baeur13316
Tony Leswick13417
Conney Weiland13417
Mush March13215
Ab McDonald66
Mike Ricci66
Tim Kerr448
Total13826*14
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
DefensemenESPPPK Total
Allan Stanley162422
Earl Seibert182424
Vladimir Lutchenko16218
Flash Hollett14519
Vasili Pervukhin131115
Doug Young13316
Total92914
[TBODY] [/TBODY]



VS



Oakland Skates (4)

rhi--oakska93.gif



coaching

Pat Quinn



forwards

Kevin Stevens • Denis Savard • Steve Larmer (classic)

Dave Andreychuk • Pat LaFontaine (C) • Alexander Mogilny (give and go)

Henrik Zetterberg (A) • Pavel Datsyuk • Dino Ciccarelli (puck possession)

Shawn Burr • Rick Meagher • Jan Erixon (shadow)



defense

Chris Pronger (A) • Steve Duchesne

Mark Tinordi • Al MacInnis

Bob Murray • Robert Svehla



spares

Kent Nilsson (chilling in the press box ready to be a hero)

Guy Chouinard

Pekka Rautakallio



goalies

Roberto Luongo (easy saves for him)

Mike Vernon (makes easy saves look good)



powerplay

  • Savard will make things happen with Stevens and Ciccarelli both in front of the net
  • LaFontaine and Mogilny and Andreychuk will dominate together as they actually did
  • MacInnis will be there basically all the time with his actual partners Duchesne and Pronger
  • Datsyuk and Zetterberg and Larmer and Svehla and Murray will get a little bit of time

penalty kill

  • Burr and Meagher and Erixon will spend the most time killing penalties
  • Datsyuk and Zetterberg and Larmer will back them up sometimes
  • LaFontaine and Mogilny will sometimes go out there if the team needs a goal
  • Pronger will kill basically every penalty he didn't commit
  • Tinordi and Svehla and MacInnis and Murray will be there as well (especially if Pronger is in the box)

 

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,981
Brooklyn
I hope @tabness comes by - good effort for a first time GM.

________________________

On to substance - I think that the choices of coaches could work in NJ's favor here. Ken Hitchcock played the matchup game in the playoffs about as well as any other dead puck era coach. Whereas Quinn generally preferred to spread his offensive and defensive players throughout his lineup, not really playing the matchup game as much. (In my own opinion, this tended to hurt Quinn's teams in the playoffs, but obviously not every GM shares my views on Quinn, as he's regularly drafted in the ATD).

So I think that Ken Hitchock will get the matchups he wants more often than not, especially on home ice.

How do I see Hitchock taking advantage of this? By using the Sid Abel line head to head against Oakland's 2nd line (preferred), or alternatively their 1st line. Oakland's top 6 more or less has 5 bad defensive players, plus Steve Larmer, who is ok as a defensive conscience, but not enough to make up for the combined defensive play of Abel and Krutov. Not saying those two are stars defensively, but they can hold their own, especially Abel. The Lafontaine line especially is poor defensively, and I really think would be dominated at all ends of the ice by NJ's top line.

__________________

Matchups aside, I think an additional advantage that NJ has is the matchup of Krutov against Oakland's RDs. First off Steve Duchesne was just a weak defensive player, and really shouldn't be in an ATD top 4 at all. MacInnis was a good defensive player, not elite by any stretch but good, but I don't think skating was really a strength of MacInnis, so he could struggle with Krutov's speed. Plus if Tinordi-MacInnis is matched against NJ's top line, then Lafleur is going to flat out torch Tinordi. Finally, I don't see the slow skating Svehla really being able to keep up with Krutov either.
 

tabness

be a playa
Apr 4, 2014
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Wasn't really expecting to even be in a playoff series lol

I'll make a few general comments on team build and matchups and after that spend some time on several of my players, with special attention to LaFontaine. This will be a "defensive" post obviously.

I generally like your team build despite my usual hesitations with cross era and cross cultural chemistry. I think you did a good job bringing enough other Soviets on the team to try and get the best out of the very gifted Krutov (let me belatedly call this out as another example of the best/smartest strategic picks of the draft), and though I'd probably play him with Starshinov, the first line you built makes a lot of sense makeup wise.

I'm in agreement with you regarding Hitchcock and his tactical coaching. Although Quinn's coaching style is sometimes made into an oversimplified caricature, it's fair to say that he's less likely to tinker with his line combos and react to the other coach (which is sometimes a bad thing but sometimes necessary), especially with a team like the Skates where the lines sort of make themselves.

Another thing is that Hitchcock runs a pretty tight ship in terms of discipline which combined with your personnel probably means the Skates lethal powerplay won't get as many chances as I'd like them too.

I do think the strength of your wingers on your first line will be a tough matchup for any single one of my lines (as constructed) but I do like the Skates offensive depth to make it up.

I would like to point out that the guys seeing the most even strength ice time will likely be Zetterberg and Datsyuk (and Larmer after them) though, given that they are the third options on the powerplay and not the main options on the penalty kill, which I believe will certainly help matchup wise.

Though perhaps Hitchcock will keep them away more often than not when they're on the road, I really like my shadow line's build against your top line. Burr is perfect to handle Krutov's power and Meagher's specialty is superstar's superstars like Lafleur. Obviously they aren't going to score on the counterattack in any significant degree, but a little bit of frustration goes a long way.

Stevens and Andreychuk are certainly not ideal left wings in terms of skating especially defensively. Stevens was pretty good as a powerful straight line skater but his wider turning radius and general defensive effort level does not make him the ideal backchecker by any stretch. Andreychuk is Andreychuk lol. You having Kerr play sheltered minutes at even strength and just do his thing on the powerplay would probably be the ideal usage of Andreychuk as well (there's always Nilsson or Chouinard), I just liked to be able actually recreate the line. Also, as I mentioned during the draft I just generally worry about issues with having players of this pedigree play depth roles. On the flip side, offensively these are big and strong guys who love to go to the net and have great hands when at it. It will not be fun for any blue line to deal with them. Ciccarelli does the same thing even though he's smaller. Even Tinordi likes to crash the net. With the mix of finesse players handling the puck alongside them, it's not a fun matchup when the opponent is on the defensive.

I do think you're selling Larmer short defensively. Larmer hit the offensive heights he did because he happened to have an amazing shot and the great sense to be in the right place while playing with superstar centers, but his real value is what he brings defensively. He allows Savard to play to his strengths, and though Savard deserves lots of the credit of being a finesse player that actually (paradoxically) improved his game by avoiding contact, the tactical issues that could arise with that approach were masked well by having Larmer ride shotgun.

MacInnis wasn't the best skater no (he was called "chopper" though he worked at it), though as he aged he became very good positionally where I don't think it was much of a concern. More of a concern to me was him dealing with the physical game which is why I got Tinordi at his side (Murray • MacInnis seems like a perfect match but Murray was just too small for me to try it defensively).

I definitely don't think Lafleur will torch Tinordi though as it's some complete mismatch (it's Lafleur so of course he'll burn anyone he plays against to some degree). Tinordi was excellent defensively (after Pronger probably my best defensive defenseman) and as I mentioned when I drafted him, was quite a good skater especially for his size. That with his general positioning and reach actually makes him difficult to get around.

On Duchesne, first of all in general I think offensive defensemen like him have too much of a stigma against them. Obviously, I didn't draft him for his defense and paired him with my best defensive defenseman, but I will call out that Duchesne's issues weren't at all a result of getting beat cleanly, he was way too good of a skater for that, and played one on one situations brilliantly. His issues were getting caught up the ice trying to do too much offensively first and foremost and dealing with powerful forwards who'd play the body on him. I think Pronger mitigates both those aspects to a great extent (not to mention my forwards love carrying the puck anyway so Duchesne simply will get to do it less and get himself in trouble less).

Svehla did deal with quicker forwards by simply clutching and grabbing, so I guess it depends how the game is called. I'm more than confident in his general defensive awareness and positioning though. His partner Murray is a great skating partner who generally played conservatively at even strength anyway, using his offensive talent mainly on the powerplay.

Last but not least, Pronger and MacInnis were both noted for being excellent at handling two on ones (and so was Luongo). So even if Duchesne gets caught up the ice or Tinordi falls down and has a freak injury or something, I feel I got the right personnel to minimize the damage in those situations.

LaFontaine

Fundamentally, I just hold LaFontaine in a far higher esteem than you (and probably most others here). He doesn't seem to get the credit he deserves. As I said when I drafted him, he's the best player on my team and I'd take him over Forsberg. I know you consider that crazy, but I'm pretty happy with the opinion (goal scoring centers are the biggest gamebreaking impact players you can get and LaFontaine's goal scoring trump Forsberg physical and puck protection advantages). He belongs there with all of those guys with shorter careers due to injury.

If you're looking for opinions other than mine, contemporaneous at his prime, there's that too, even if the awards voting doesn't reflect it (aside from the fact that I straight up prefer to watch the player and make my own opinion, I feel the draft section seems to over value the awards voting results in their representativeness of contemporaneous opinion itself).

As the excerpts I posted in the draft thread from LaFontaine's (and Gretzky's) entry in the Hockey Scouting Report 1990-91 attested to, LaFontaine was considered by them to be one of the best players of the late eighties, probably the deepest period for top end players, right there with Lemieux, Gretzky, Yzerman, Messier, Savard, Bourque, Coffey, among others.

The Hockey News 1993 Yearbook had a feature on LaFontaine as the second best player to Lemieux before the actual 1992-1993 season where he did what he did.

When Neil Smith discussed Lindros and his physical aspect, the dominant superstars he mentioned were Gretzky, Lemieux, Yzerman, and LaFontaine. (ERIC THE BAD : The Bruising Flyer Rookie Rocks Hockey With Raw Talent, Bad Manners and Frank Pleasure in the Violence of the Sport)

I'm not sure why LaFontaine's defensive play is being singled out for criticism here. Defensive play is definitely the area that I think scouting video of sorts would be very welcome to somewhat open up the analysis in the draft. It's just very time consuming to do, but should I participate again in the future, I'll definitely try to do this, and I'll start with LaFontaine.

From my watching of him in his prime, he does everything pretty well for a superstar. He backchecks hard and he's definitely an all time skater so he's quite effective doing so. He has great awareness and anticipation without the puck. His positioning is generally good (he's a superstar scoring center that likes to play down low so obviously he's simply not able to be in position every time and he'll break the zone early when potential opportunities arise but you can say that about pretty much every great goal scoring center). He'll play and sacrifice the body at the right time (obviously he didn't have the size to be effective as much as he'd hope, but he definitely had the right idea). The biggest defensive issue with him was pretty much when he was on the Islanders in the late eighties, as he simply over carried the puck at times which obviously leads to turnovers no matter how skilled the player is, but how can you blame him with the help he had? He was actually making the highest percentage play by not passing or dumping it in many times. Obviously it wasn't any sort of fundamental issue with him as seen by when he went to the Sabres and had help.

His profile on the NHL 100 Greatest Players specifically has David Poille and Jiggs McDonald discuss his defensive play. Mostly, I love Poille saying he'd be a number one center on any team today. (Pat LaFontaine: 100 Greatest NHL Players)

The ranking of LaFontaine in the Hockey Digest Yearbook 93-94 that I also posted in the draft thread was second only to Lemieux among centers. He was rated a "9" on defense (the only higher ranked "10s" among the 25 centers they ranked were Lemieux, Roenick, Yzerman, Gilmour, and Fedorov).

LaFontaine's stats simply do not do him justice, as he only had a brief period of his prime where he actually was not in a disadvantaged position (and in that period he was basically the best scorer in the game after Lemieux). With the Islanders before, he seems to have the least help among the notable players I ran the points together numbers on, and same story in Buffalo after Mogilny was dealt. Then there's the injuries, in terms of straight up missing time, just not even playing at hundred percent when not missing time, and the continuous issues of adjusting after missing so much time over and over.

To briefly touch on Mogilny, I understand where you're coming from as a New Jersey fan as Mogilny obviously didn't play his most inspired hockey there, but this guy really is one of the best wingers of his era when it comes to defensive sense. He just needs to actually realize his potential, and as I have tried to provide a context for that, having both LaFontaine as his center and Quinn as his coach, I think Mogilny should be judged more on his highs than his lows on the Skates.
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
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Brooklyn
I'm not going to respond to your entire post; just to parts where I have something to add and respond to.

I generally like your team build despite my usual hesitations with cross era and cross cultural chemistry. I think you did a good job bringing enough other Soviets on the team to try and get the best out of the very gifted Krutov (let me belatedly call this out as another example of the best/smartest strategic picks of the draft), and though I'd probably play him with Starshinov, the first line you built makes a lot of sense makeup wise.

Thanks.

The reason I'm playing Krutov where he is - style of play. In real life, Guy Lafleur played extensively with Steve Shutt, a fast skating guy who put up a lot of points by crashing the net while Guy Lafleur did his thing. I see Krutov as an amped up version of Shutt - similar style to Shutt but even faster and just better at both ends of the ice. I think it was @Hawkey Town 18 who commented on this almost immediately after I drafted Krutov. This pleased me, as it is exactly what I was going for, and taking Krutov were I did was a risk; originally I had intended on playing it safe and drafting a defenseman like Carl Brewer at the time. (In the ATD, the "safe" move is almost always drafting a defenseman). I like Sid Abel as their center because he was pretty balanced between goals and assists, which I think is ideal for those two as a pair. Abel also has experience as the slower-skating defensive conscience for the fast skating Lindsay-Howe duo, so I think he'll excel playing the role Lemaire often played Shutt-Lafleur in real life.

The Mayorov/Starshinov duo were real life linemates, who played a real grinding style, with Mayorov the primary playmaker and Starshinov the primary goal scorer. See @Theokritos 's recent posts on their style of play in the Soviet hockey thread. I like Bobby Bauer as their skilled RW - in real life, the skilled Bauer was the primary puck career next to 2 grinding forwards on the Woody Dumart - Milt Schmidt - Bobby Bauer "Kraut Line," although obviously nobody on NJ's 2nd line is as good as Schmidt. Like Schmidt, Starshinov was also a strong defensive player (again, not saying Starsh was in Schmidt's league, just that I can see some stylistic comparisons).

Just talking style of play and nothing else, this is the most satisfied I've ever been with a top 6 of any team that I've built. Both lines strong at both ends of the rink, with the first line highlighted by blazing fast wingers, and the second line built to maintain puck possession in the offensive zone.


Also, as I mentioned during the draft I just generally worry about issues with having players of this pedigree play depth roles.

I view building the ATD teams as a somewhat similar to how the best international teams (especially Canada) could build their rosters - my preference is always to take the most talented players who have the skillsets to fill the specific roles that I need.

Last but not least, Pronger and MacInnis were both noted for being excellent at handling two on ones (and so was Luongo). So even if Duchesne gets caught up the ice or Tinordi falls down and has a freak injury or something, I feel I got the right personnel to minimize the damage in those situations.

Pronger, yes, great one-on-one player as long as he doesn't get too mad. Maybe Hitchcock could use Tony Leswick, the greatest pest of his era, to try to piss off Pronger? A pissed off Pronger is more prone to mistakes of various types.

MacInnis was pretty strong defensively in the second half of his career, but I thought it was more about smarts and positioning than one-on-one play?

I'm not sure why LaFontaine's defensive play is being singled out for criticism here. Defensive play is definitely the area that I think scouting video of sorts would be very welcome to somewhat open up the analysis in the draft. It's just very time consuming to do, but should I participate again in the future, I'll definitely try to do this, and I'll start with LaFontaine.

It's not so much that Lafontaine was bad defensively, it's that he wasn't particularly good either - and he's playing with two wingers who were bad (especially Andreychuk).

The ranking of LaFontaine in the Hockey Digest Yearbook 93-94 that I also posted in the draft thread was second only to Lemieux among centers. He was rated a "9" on defense (the only higher ranked "10s" among the 25 centers they ranked were Lemieux, Roenick, Yzerman, Gilmour, and Fedorov).

I was about to put stock into this... until I saw they ranked Lemieux highly defensively?

Re: Lafontaine in general; no denying that he was uber-talented. It's just that for a variety of reasons (largely injuries, but not entirely), he didn't really accomplish as much as his raw talent would have you think. I mean, i think he's a good enough #2 center in this, but I'm nowhere near as high on him as you are!

To briefly touch on Mogilny, I understand where you're coming from as a New Jersey fan as Mogilny obviously didn't play his most inspired hockey there, but this guy really is one of the best wingers of his era when it comes to defensive sense. He just needs to actually realize his potential, and as I have tried to provide a context for that, having both LaFontaine as his center and Quinn as his coach, I think Mogilny should be judged more on his highs than his lows on the Skates.

Mogilny was apparently pretty good defensively in Toronto, at least based on what Leafs fans say. But that was only a small portion of his career, and not one of his 3 all-time noteworthy seasons. I disagree that players should only be based on their highs - I think both highs and lows need to be taken into account.
 
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tabness

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Apr 4, 2014
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Pronger, yes, great one-on-one player as long as he doesn't get too mad. Maybe Hitchcock could use Tony Leswick, the greatest pest of his era, to try to piss off Pronger? A pissed off Pronger is more prone to mistakes of various types.

MacInnis was pretty strong defensively in the second half of his career, but I thought it was more about smarts and positioning than one-on-one play?

Yes, I had said on a two on one, which MacInnis was noted in scouting reports of playing very well in terms of gap control and angles during his later prime Calgary years even before he added even more to his defensive repertoire in his St. Louis years. Honestly, one on one I never think MacInnis can be considered anything beyond pretty decent, he simply lacked the skating. Compare to a Gary Suter or Duchesne who were fantastic one on one (Duchesne could be exploited if a guy ran him though he'd have to be fast enough to get him) but looked confused too many times on a two on one and with positional defense in general. Pronger obviously could play both excellently.

I don't think Tinordi would leave MacInnis hanging out to dry much anyway, so it's mostly going to fall on Pronger to deal with odd man rushes.

Hopefully Coach Quinn and Pronger's mentor and buddy MacInnis and another great leader in Tinordi will prevent him from doing too many dumbass things that hurt the team, though I'm less confident on that despite the team around him than I am with getting the best out of Mogilny. I just hope the suspension is worth it lol :sarcasm:

Mogilny was apparently pretty good defensively in Toronto, at least based on what Leafs fans say. But that was only a small portion of his career, and not one of his 3 all-time noteworthy seasons. I disagree that players should only be based on their highs - I think both highs and lows need to be taken into account.

I didn't say or mean that players should be judged only at their highs in a general sense, was specifically using the case of Mogilny getting to play with LaFontaine and for Quinn, which were important contextual factors in getting the best out of him that I've tried to add on my team. Just as I think it's unfair to judge Krutov at his lows on the Swamp Devils because of the way you built the team.
 
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