Salary Cap: Salary Cap + Roster Building | Well, now what?

[Honour Over Glory]

You had better start preparing now to be extremely disappointed come July then... because odds are you will not find a better 3C then Sheahan.

It's disappointing that the narrative is still "we need better than Sheahan" even after all he did last season and is asked to do this season in a lesser capacity with lesser/constantly changing line mates.

 

[Riptide]

Listen here, brotha! I love Kessel.

BUT it's ridiculous he whined his way to line 2.

It's also very ridiculous Brass is being catered to.

No more ridiculous that Brassard whining about his TOI got him off L3 into the top 6. Why do you think there was comments this summer about Brassard getting tried on the wing? Because at the end of last season, he was whining about his TOI, and how it dropped from 19 or so minutes in Ottawa to 15 something here.

At the end of the day if you want happy players (and you want happy players), you need to give them bones from time to time. If we can make it work and win with Brassard on the wing and Kessel on L2, you do it as long as you can, and move on. However if it's tried, and it doesn't work then changes get made.

I see them giving this another few games (which is fine as long as other changes get made), and then reverting back to Brassard at 3c unless we start winning games and playing much better.

 

[Empoleon8771]

You had better start preparing now to be extremely disappointed come July then... because odds are you will not find a better 3C then Sheahan.

As someone who really liked what Sheahan was able to do last year, I'd be disappointed if they just ended up with him as the long term 3C. Like very super disappointed. It's not because Sheahan is bad, he's a slightly above average 3C probably, but I don't have confidence in Crosby-Malkin-Sheahan being good enough as your top-9 centers.

 

[Riptide]

It's disappointing that the narrative is still "we need better than Sheahan" even after all he did last season and is asked to do this season in a lesser capacity with lesser/constantly changing line mates.

The thing that gets me, is we have the players here to allow Sheahan to be a stupidly effective 3C for us. Even more so this season while we have Brassard here. But just in general between Kessel, Guentzel, Sprong, Simon, Rust and Hornqvist... we have the guys who can make that line be decent to very good while still having a good top 6.

This reminds me of a comment I made a few years ago on here when everyone was crying for "Crosby's long term solution" on the wing. You do not need "long term solutions". Yes they're ideal... but if the short term solution is working just fine, then that's all that matters at the end of the day.

Sheahan isn't ideal as our 3C. I get it. He's too defensive minded, and doesn't drive the play enough offensively. But that doesn't mean that with the right wingers, L3 can't be productive enough to give us the matchup advantages we want to see.

As someone who really liked what Sheahan was able to do last year, I'd be disappointed if they just ended up with him as the long term 3C. Like very super disappointed.

Then I would starting getting prepared to be very super disappointed. Because odds are we will get him or someone very much like him. Rutherford has shown that he's willing to roll the dice and see how things pan out... but looking at FA... I don't see all that many players who are guys we will be able to afford, are not pipe dreams and who are "clear cut upgrades" over Sheahan.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Listen here, brotha! I love Kessel.

BUT it's ridiculous he whined his way to line 2.


I love him. Pens need him.

It's also very ridiculous Brass is being catered to.

That's all I'm saying. The lines you have are fine. Biggest thing is Brass knocked back down where he FITS and solves a need on the team.

That's all I'm trying to say. Kessel is excelling so I can deal with his line two argument. I currently don't think Brass deserves or has earned bumping our best LW player and abandoning his role as 3C.

There were only two wingers with more points than Kessel in the entire league last year. He is one of the elite wingers in the league and because he’s flat out awesome at generating offense, he’s supposed to be on the third line to make it better?

That’s why they paid through the nose for Brassard.

It’s crazy when we start telling ourselves it’s normal that one of the elite wingers in the game should be on the third line. Imagine telling Kuch or Kane they should be third liners...

It worked one time to win a cup and that magic has never returned. That’s why Bowman warned about falling in love with things that worked once and always chasing after that lighting in a bottle.

Every single winger of Kessels ilk, would also balk at being a third liner. It’s asinine.

 

[EightyOne]

Those other stars are USUALLY the big fish of the pond on their teams.

Kessel, despite his magic, might be fifth most important ego to stroke on the team.

It isn't a typical situation

Edit... on a random team
You'd have
Jake sid geno
Hags brass kess
As the top lines. This team isn't built out like that. It's got like five pieces fitting into six spots and three can't play together.

 

[Shady Machine]

Those other stars are USUALLY the big fish of the pond on their teams.

Kessel, despite his magic, might be fifth most important ego to stroke on the team.

It isn't a typical situation

Good news is him and Malkin are leading the team in offense together. I see no reason to change it up anytime soon.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Good news is him and Malkin are leading the team in offense together. I see no reason to change it up anytime soon.

We can't have one line producing like that. It's making the other three lines look bad.

 

[Empoleon8771]

So, Maatta and Sheahan for Saad anyone? I'm down to do that. You can even allow Sullivan to make dumb lineup decisions like a top line of Saad-Crosby-Guentzel if you do that swap. When Schultz gets healthy, you'll end up with:

Guentzel-Crosby-Hornqvist
Saad-Malkin-Rust
Hagelin-Brassard-Kessel
ZAR/Simon-Cullen-Sprong/Simon

Dumoulin-Letang
Riikola-Johnson
Oleksiak-Schultz

If you're concerned with the defense, you can look to move one of Simon or Sprong for a young and cheap RD.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

The thing that gets me, is we have the players here to allow Sheahan to be a stupidly effective 3C for us. Even more so this season while we have Brassard here. But just in general between Kessel, Guentzel, Sprong, Simon, Rust and Hornqvist... we have the guys who can make that line be decent to very good while still having a good top 6.

This reminds me of a comment I made a few years ago on here when everyone was crying for "Crosby's long term solution" on the wing. You do not need "long term solutions". Yes they're ideal... but if the short term solution is working just fine, then that's all that matters at the end of the day.

Sheahan isn't ideal as our 3C. I get it. He's too defensive minded, and doesn't drive the play enough offensively. But that doesn't mean that with the right wingers, L3 can't be productive enough to give us the matchup advantages we want to see.



Then I would starting getting prepared to be very super disappointed. Because odds are we will get him or someone very much like him. Rutherford has shown that he's willing to roll the dice and see how things pan out... but looking at FA... I don't see all that many players who are guys we will be able to afford, are not pipe dreams and who are "clear cut upgrades" over Sheahan.

Sheahan also showed last season that he can produce, so while he is a fantastic 2-way player that wins draws at a highly effective rate, he can also produce 35+ pts when you pair him with guys that fill his deficiency of scoring and being more offensive minded. He's a guy that can produce, but he also seems to really take on the role you give him when its defensive because he seems to be comfortable there as being needed by someone.

When they bumped Brass up, they had the opportunity to deploy him with a better set of wingers and they still managed to bungle that up.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

No more ridiculous that Brassard whining about his TOI got him off L3 into the top 6. Why do you think there was comments this summer about Brassard getting tried on the wing? Because at the end of last season, he was whining about his TOI, and how it dropped from 19 or so minutes in Ottawa to 15 something here.

At the end of the day if you want happy players (and you want happy players), you need to give them bones from time to time. If we can make it work and win with Brassard on the wing and Kessel on L2, you do it as long as you can, and move on. However if it's tried, and it doesn't work then changes get made.

I see them giving this another few games (which is fine as long as other changes get made), and then reverting back to Brassard at 3c unless we start winning games and playing much better.

My issue is that if you are going to stack the top 6 that much, you can spread the talent out a little more than they have been.

I would have liked to see this with Brass up on Sid's wing:

Brassard, Crosby, Sprong - Put the f***ing kid in a position to succeed.
Hagelin, Malkin, Kessel - It works 60% of the time, all the time, made with real chunks of hotdogs.
Guentzel, Sheahan, Hornqvist - Enough offense and a mix of grit and playmaking as well as defensive awareness to be a solid unit.
Simon, Cullen, Rust - Speed. Lots of Speed.

That's still a pretty good balance of lines.

The defense is a different animal of mess. With the lack of proper pairings, they have to look at maybe splitting Dumo and Letang up.


Riikola, Letang
Dumoulin, Johnson
Maatta, Oleksiak/Ruhwedel

 

[billybudd]

Yeah, I'm open to the idea of trading Kessel next summer as a matter of asset management, but there shouldn't be any question as to whether he does enough to be on a second line. I mean, he doesn't even hurdle that bar; he orbits it from outer space.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I wish there was a way to swing a Maatta + for Manson/Montour deal.

 

[The Old Master]

Sheahan isn't ideal as our 3C. I get it. He's too defensive minded, and doesn't drive the play enough offensively.

but that makes him the perfect fit with kessel,

 

[WayneSid9987]

After reading Friedman's 31 Thoughts today, i realised who the best available right side defender is on the market...

Slava Voynov

Question: Would you do it? A simple yes or no. No need to explain and side note, Friedman said in his 31 Thoughts that one owner said "Nope". I wonder if that points to Mario since Schultz went down...

 

[Riptide]

My issue is that if you are going to stack the top 6 that much, you can spread the talent out a little more than they have been.

I would have liked to see this with Brass up on Sid's wing:

Brassard, Crosby, Sprong - Put the ****ing kid in a position to succeed.
Hagelin, Malkin, Kessel - It works 60% of the time, all the time, made with real chunks of hotdogs.
Guentzel, Sheahan, Hornqvist - Enough offense and a mix of grit and playmaking as well as defensive awareness to be a solid unit.
Simon, Cullen, Rust - Speed. Lots of Speed.

That's still a pretty good balance of lines.

I don't even think you need Sprong there - although I get why people want him off L4. But I do agree that if the plan is to try Brassard on the wing (which I think is a good one), then you need to move someone to L3 with some skill, or that line will not produce like it could.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I don't even think you need Sprong there - although I get why people want him off L4. But I do agree that if the plan is to try Brassard on the wing (which I think is a good one), then you need to move someone to L3 with some skill, or that line will not produce like it could.

I put Sprong there because you don't have a sniper on that line, I mean yeah they want to keep Jake there, but Jake is better on the left side and if you keep Brassard on the left side, it's a better look to put a natural RW'er that can shoot the puck the way Sprong can there.

On the 3rd line, putting Jake, Sheahan, and Horny together, it's a solid mix of everything.

 

[Riptide]

but that makes him the perfect fit with kessel,

Bitch about it if you want... but that doesn't change the fact that Kessel's best numbers last season came with Sheahan as his center.

 

[Riptide]

After reading Friedman's 31 Thoughts today, i realised who the best available right side defender is on the market...

Slava Voynov

Question: Would you do it? A simple yes or no. No need to explain and side note, Friedman said in his 31 Thoughts that one owner said "Nope". I wonder if that points to Mario since Schultz went down...

I would. But I get why people won't.

 

[WayneSid9987]

I would. But I get why people won't.

Same.

 

[JackFr]

After reading Friedman's 31 Thoughts today, i realised who the best available right side defender is on the market...

Slava Voynov

Question: Would you do it? A simple yes or no. No need to explain and side note, Friedman said in his 31 Thoughts that one owner said "Nope". I wonder if that points to Mario since Schultz went down...

Abso-f***ing-lutely not.

We have 3 Cups. We should not be desperate enough to bring that scumbag into our room.

 

[Sideline]

I would. But I get why people won't.

I would too. What he did had legal consequences. There's a whole judicial system set up to punish people that do things like that. He went to jail. At a certain point you have to let people move on after they pay their debt to society.

 

[The Old Master]

***** about it if you want... but that doesn't change the fact

none of that here.....it's what I've been pulling for all year.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Those other stars are USUALLY the big fish of the pond on their teams.

Kessel, despite his magic, might be fifth most important ego to stroke on the team.

It isn't a typical situation

Edit... on a random team
You'd have
Jake sid geno
Hags brass kess
As the top lines. This team isn't built out like that. It's got like five pieces fitting into six spots and three can't play together.

Chicago had Toews, Kane and Hossa all in the top six. Caps have Birdman, Backstrom and AO in their top six. Leafs have Tavares, Matthews and Marner in their top six.

It way more unusual to put a first line winger on the third line, than vice versa. It rarely happens unless said player is in a big slump.

The problem isn’t Kessel. He’s working hard, he’s shooting when he should, passing when he should... he can’t control that Malkin doesn’t want to shoot and that Hags has peanut butter hands.

Just bananas how Kessel is expected to be the ailment for a struggling third line. It’s honestly insulting to ask him to be a third liner when he’s absolutely an elite winger.

I’d be pissed to and wonder wth. “So uh, because we won that cup that one time, I’m supposed to be a third liner... because uh... why isn’t Brassard playing there coach... I’ve kind of been a top line winger my whole career in case you aren’t aware of that... so uh, ok then...”

 

[Riptide]

The problem isn’t Kessel. He’s working hard, he’s shooting when he should, passing when he should... he can’t control that Malkin doesn’t want to shoot and that Hags has peanut butter hands.

Just bananas how Kessel is expected to be the ailment for a struggling third line. It’s honestly insulting to ask him to be a third liner when he’s absolutely an elite winger.

A) No he can't control that... which is why moving him off that line should be a serious consideration.
B) The issue is playing with Crosby is likely an even worse option - not that we've seen it much, but I can't imagine it's changed much.
C) It's not that Kessel is expected to be the ailment for a struggling 3rd line - we have other options for that. But that his fit elsewhere is awkward at best... which limits our overall options. We're obviously not going to trade Crosby or Malkin... and Kessel is too good of a player to trade just because... and thus this is what we end up with.
D) There's also the matter of having a lineup that puts us in the best possible position to win. And come PO time, I think that's with Kessel on L3. Not because he can't work elsewhere (he can), but because with Crosby and Malkin there already, he's not 'needed' on L1/2 for those lines to be very dangerous - as they're plenty dangerous already with 87/71. Thus putting him on L3 can be a great option for us.

But something you didn't touch on with your Chicago or Toronto or Washington examples is that those players work well together. Kane and Hossa work with pretty much anyone. Same with Marner and Nylander, and Ovechkin. Kessel doesn't work great with Malkin or from our limited viewings Crosby.

Maybe we should be trying something drastic - to the point that I'd even consider Brassard on the wing on L3. Or Guentzel. I don't care. I want us to win, and I think the most successful way for that to happen is with a top 9 that has 3 lines that are all a serious threat to score.

Hagelin - Crosby - Kessel
Guentzel - Malkin - Rust/Hornqvist
Brassard - Sheahan - Rust/Hornqvist

Yeah I know... people will say just put Sprong in the top 9 and leave Brassard at C. Completely open to that... I just don't think that's the answer right now. Sprong on L4 with #2PP time isn't hurting him. Injuries will happen. As will line changes when others frustrate Sullivan enough. Or when Sprong shows enough jump and determination that he deserves more looks elsewhere.