Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building Thread: Get your trade rumors here!

[Riptide]

Why would you assume that

Common sense for starters? You're not going to get someone like Lowry for Brassard. You maybe get Faksa due Dallas needing a 2c, and having Dickinson and Hanzel (if he ever comes off IR) and due to his contract and few years of team control left (1 RFA year left after his current contract (with 1.5 yrs left on it) expires). But Winnipeg isn't in the same situation, and they love Lowry. Brassard for them would just be depth to push Little down (or to at least challenge Little), but I can't see Winnipeg then extending Brassard at 5/6m. Dallas on the other hand might be more willing to pony up more due to a perceived need for a 2c going forward.

Our best bet from Winnipeg would be Roslovic. But he's not 3c material this season, so despite him being a good prospect who's already producing at the NHL level, clearly you won't be interested.

 

[Riptide]

They get a very good ES winger to bump better wingers to play with Sheahan. There’s nothing “really stupid” about it.

I'm a big fan of Ferland... but as much of a fan of Sheahan as I am... I'm pretty hesitant to giving him back the 3c role with only a month till the TD for us to see what he can do there and if he can regain the form he had last season.

So, what is so good about Ferland?

Fast physical gritty player who can put the puck in the net. Probably one of the closest things we'll see to a 09/10 Kunitz. But like Kunitz then, he would be utterly dependent on his center to get him the puck in scoring area's.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

I agree besides Faksa. Faksa is unreal.

Prob a bit far yeah. Tough to pass on the 25 year old true pivot for a more expensive, 31 year old hybrid wing. So yeah I’ll walk that back a bit. Perreault is underrated as hell though.

Faksa doesn’t have a great statistical profile, by traditional or advanced measures.. but a lot of that could be related to getting crushed w/ d starts and poor linemates in Dallas. He passes the eye test with flying colors so it’s easier to disregard all of that. And a lot of those same #s likely rebound in PIT with better linemates and more offensive opportunities.

 

[Riptide]

The stupid part is having a guy who sucks anchor your third line when they want it to be a scoring line. Riley Sheahan is not a scoring line center

And yet as much as Brassard is, the version of Sheahan that we're seeing now with worse starts and worse linemates is actually doing a very comparable job to Brassard and Brassard is a "scoring line center". Not to mention that given the production we saw from RS just last season, shows that while he's not an ideal candidate he probably would be just fine in that role.

Yeah, they shouldn’t pull the trigger unless they have a plan for the 3C...but I’ve said before that I think it’s unlikely they’re going to get a direct 1-1 deal with Brass for a 3C...

They might... but if they do, I don't think most of us would be happy with who they get.

He's having a dramatically worse season this year than last year and he wasn't good enough last year, why would he suddenly be good enough now?

Well duh... he's playing on the 4th line instead of the 3rd line. And instead of getting guys like Guentzel, Kessel, Sheary or Hagelin on his wing, he gets Cullen, Rust, ZAR or Wilson. Anyone who thought that he'd be putting up the same sort of numbers he was prior to the TD last season (36pt pace, 32pts at ES) had some completely idiotic expectations.

I'm not saying he's been good this season (which is why even as a fan I'm extremely hesitant to go with him as a 3c without a backup option on the team), but only a fool would compare this season to last season.

One has 13 goals and brings physicality, energy and production. He could really help Malkin or bring more of an edge to the 3rd line.

The other has 14 points and has played very underwhelming and lacking effort.

You don’t have to trade position for positions. With the way Brassard has played it’s not that risky to trade him and find a 3C in another deal.

I get and agree with most of what you're saying... but Brassard should have a lot more value then a pending FA in Ferland. Not to mention that we would still need some sort of center to at least insulate Sheahan if he can't perform at an acceptable 3c level.

Ferland is a winger, but as a power forward he brings a specialized skill set that GMs value (regardless of whether they’re right or wrong on that), can play either wing on any line, and scores goals. Couple that with his relative youth and a minuscule cap hit— there won’t be any shortage of suitors because literally every buyer can fit him in both financially and in their lineup.

I don’t think Brass holds zero trade value, and still is attractive to the right teams... but I also think he and Ferland are close to even in the market.

Even if that's the case... we would still need another center brought in to help round out our depth and to give us more options to insulate Sheahan.

They do. Our standards for 3 C are too high.

They might. If Sheahan can play like he did last year, then we'd be fine (even if half (or more) of this board wasn't happy with him). The question is can he play at that level again, given that he hasn't played that role for almost a full season now (since late Feb 2018), and has been pretty meh on L4 (no surprise there)? I'm fine with trying to find out... but we had better have a plan B option there just in case he can't perform at that level.

Guentzel-Crosby-Hornqvist
Pearson-Malkin-Rust
Ferland-Pageau-Kessel
ZAR-Cullen-Simon

For someone bitching about how Sheahan isn't a 3c... sure seems odd that they would then embrace someone with similar (although lesser) numbers then what Sheahan had last season as our 3c.

 

[Riptide]

Dzingel with another goal and assist tonight...honestly think he’s a better offensive player than Ferland and want him here more if we’re trading with OTT, which I think is unlikely because we have nothing they would want and I don’t want JR to use our first on a rental...

He absolutely would be. But he doesn't bring Ferland's grit/physical game. So while I'd love to have him... I'd want Ferland more due to the type of game he could bring that we don't really have internally.

 

[Riptide]

I heard Z.Smith sucks now (Ottawa fans). I'd like him but retained, still a good skater IIRC? On pace for around 40 points and can win faceoffs.

The issue with Smith is that he's not a great 3c even when playing full time as a center. And for much of his time (and production) over the past few seasons has spend significant time on the wing. He has some very appealing aspects to his game (speed and grit), but his absolute best case is probably what we got out of Sheahan last season. And that comes with a 3.25m cap hit for the next 2.5 seasons. Which means you need to be pretty damn sure of what he can provide for you - unless you have someone else around who you can rotate in/out of the 3c role. I mean if we could get Dickinson or even M.Peca as C depth/insurance, I'd be a lot more tempted to gamble on Smith.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Even if that's the case... we would still need another center brought in to help round out our depth and to give us more options to insulate Sheahan.

Not necessarily advocating for or against a Brass/Ferland swap, but I do think they’re close in value. I wouldn’t hate it though, Pens probably get better from it just on the basis that they’re shipping out Brassard- dude has been that bad. I do generally agree with the notion that in a perfect world Brass would be 1 for 1ed for a 3C.

I agree on Sheahan. I’d want another center to come in. Or you do the deal now, a month before the TDL, and see what Sheahan can do over that time. If he can replicate what he was doing last year, then you have options. If he can’t, then go out and pay for another center.

But yes, I agree that it’s risky to just assume he can handle a full blown 3C role just because he was capable last season. It’s been a full calendar year since that, and I like Sheahan more than most.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Dickinson is on pace for 25pts off the 4th line, the guy is fast, good hands, good shot, can play physical, solid playmaker, and he's a center. He's a guy that should be a 3c, the guy ahead of him is Faksa and he makes more, which is why he has that spot.

If Columbus still wants Brassard, I think JR tries to get Wennberg, a solid pass first, or rather pass only, type of guy that would utilize Pearson and Kessel better.

If you do that, then you go after Ferland, you've got the right combo of things to work with. Brassard is just underwhelming overall and at least AW is a guy with very good hands and vision with finding his wingers.

If Ferland is too pricey, my other option would be Dzingel. I love Dzingel's game, I've mentioned him to death here, but he's a guy that has elements of Hagelin and Hornqvist in his game. Dude is fast as f*** but also an epic pain in the ass when he's on his game.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

If Columbus still wants Brassard, I think JR tries to get Wennberg, a solid pass first, or rather pass only, type of guy that would utilize Pearson and Kessel better.

If you do that, then you go after Ferland, you've got the right combo of things to work with. Brassard is just underwhelming overall and at least AW is a guy with very good hands and vision with finding his wingers.

While I guess pretty much anyone would be an upgrade on what we’ve gotten from that spot, Brass and Wennberg are real similar players imo... AW would probably suck at 3C here too, and do it for more money and term. I’d pass pretty quickly.

 

[Tom Hanks]

My preferred route would be a cheaper 3C and get a bigger upgrade on the wing. Just need the right attributes more so than the names on paper.

Our 3C doesn’t have to drive the line and another quality winger will make their job and Malkin’s job easier.

 

[Gurglesons]

I hate the idea of Wennberg. In theory it is good, until you realize it is a Johnson type deal.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

My preferred route would be a cheaper 3C and get a bigger upgrade on the wing. Just need the right attributes more so than the names on paper.

Our 3C doesn’t have to drive the line and another quality winger will make their job and Malkin’s job easier.

Ferland/Dzingel and Dickinson would be perfect.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I hate the idea of Wennberg. In theory it is good, until you realize it is a Johnson type deal.

Yeah, it's just, I don't know if we can actually land Panarin. I don't know what else makes sense from the BJ's.

I just picked Wennberg and then tried to sell him to myself to sell to you guys, lol. But yeah, the guy is very "Brassard" like, just a better playmaker if anything. Not ideal, but I am actually a little scared of what JR might do.

JR already gave up a lot to get Brassard.

 

[Riptide]

Ferland/Dzingel and Dickinson would be perfect.

Honestly, I'd even settle for Peca. Definitely more of a risk then Dickinson, but I think he could at least give you the depth/insurance you'd need/want. The issue however is where do all the forwards play?

Guentzel - Crosby - Rust/Hornqvist
new winger - Malkin - Rust/Hornqvist
Pearson - Sheahan - Kessel
new center - Cullen - Simon/ZAR

Other than the insurance of someone who could challenge Sheahan for that 3c spot, I question how much of an upgrade we'd be getting going from ZAR/Simon to player X.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Honestly, I'd even settle for Peca. Definitely more of a risk then Dickinson, but I think he could at least give you the depth/insurance you'd need/want. The issue however is where do all the forwards play?

Guentzel - Crosby - Rust/Hornqvist
new winger - Malkin - Rust/Hornqvist
Pearson - Sheahan - Kessel
new center - Cullen - Simon/ZAR

Other than the insurance of someone who could challenge Sheahan for that 3c spot, I question how much of an upgrade we'd be getting going from ZAR/Simon to player X.

Thing is if you just go back to Sheahan, that means JR has to admit defeat and I think he won't want to admit that and Sullivan won't allow him to admit that either. There has been options before to make Sheahan the 3c and put Brassard as the top 6 LW and that didn't last much, even if Brass could have spent more time there and adjusted. I am ok if Sheahan is our 3C going forward, but I would then really look at upgrading our winger situation.

I would go after either Dzingel or Ferland then and just try to subtract players and go that route.

I would be happy to see these guys go in some way or another: Oleksiak, Brassard. Maybe even Maatta if they can land a veteran depth defenseman in one of the deals.

Guentzel, Crosby, Rust
Dzingel/Ferland, Malkin, Hornqvist
Pearson, Sheahan, Kessel/Rust
Aston-Reese, Cullen, Simon

 

[PensandCaps]

Wennberg is a scoring C. Needs PP time and is soft. He Makes no sense. He's a 2C guy.

 

[WayneSid9987]

Some stats on Ferland...

Advanced stats on Micheal Ferland, other possible Penguins trade targets

Everyone keeps talking about a UFA in Ferland who's gonna get PAID(and not by us) but i like Coyle alot right now who is gettable and would play this season and next at minimum:

His name is always out there as well to be had vs the Faksa's and Lowry's and his cap hit is 200k more than Brass right now.

You switch out Brass for Coyle and you can run him in the middle or on the wing(moving Rust or Horny to LW).

Jake-Sid-Horny
Simon-G-Phil/Rust
Pearson-Coyle-Rust/Phil
ZAR-Cullen-Sheahan/WilkesKid

Jake-Sid-Horny
Rust-G-Phil
Pearson-Sheahan/Cullen-Coyle
Simon-Sheahan/Cullen-ZAR

If that great fit young 2 way 3C just isn't attainable atm Coyle is a prime target imo.
In terms of 3C's outside of the preffered ones, i wouldn't mind the Pageau's, E.Staal's, Tierney's.

 

[billybudd]

Bonino at least played with a high end determination/leave it all on the ice. Not saying Sheahan does/doesn't, but it was obvious that Bonino played that way, where it's not as obvious that Sheahan does.

It's more evident that Bones wants to win, yes. Not saying Sheahan doesn't, necessarily, but that's not even a question with Bones.

 

[Empoleon8771]

For someone *****ing about how Sheahan isn't a 3c... sure seems odd that they would then embrace someone with similar (although lesser) numbers then what Sheahan had last season as our 3c.

I thought I've made this clear already. I want someone who I can expect will give good 3C results, not a reclamation project who may give you good 3C results. Sheahan is a band-aid that may perform like a legit 3C in a season or 2. I want an actual legit 3C, Pageau is someone like that.

In the last 4 years, Pageau has 29 points in 78 games, 33 points in 82 games, 43 points in 82 games and 19 points in 50 games (pace of 31 points per 82 games). You know what you're going to get out of him, 30+ points, good speed and forechecking ability and solid defense. Sheahan scored 2 goals and 13 points in an entire season 2 years ago. That is the difference between the two. Sheahan may give you a performance on par with Pageau in any given season, but you expect Pageau to be performing like that. You're lucky if Sheahan performs that way.

 

[Rakell67]

If Brassard is dealt (for pick/cap space) and that is used to acquire Ferland, I’d like to see...

Guentzel Crosby Rust
Ferland Malkin Hornqvist
Pearson Sheahan Kessel
Simon Cullen Aston-Reese
Wilson

With Blueger called up at some point. Obviously a Dman would still need to be moved, could upgrade 3C at the deadline or sooner.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Common sense for starters? You're not going to get someone like Lowry for Brassard. You maybe get Faksa due Dallas needing a 2c, and having Dickinson and Hanzel (if he ever comes off IR) and due to his contract and few years of team control left (1 RFA year left after his current contract (with 1.5 yrs left on it) expires). But Winnipeg isn't in the same situation, and they love Lowry. Brassard for them would just be depth to push Little down (or to at least challenge Little), but I can't see Winnipeg then extending Brassard at 5/6m. Dallas on the other hand might be more willing to pony up more due to a perceived need for a 2c going forward.

Our best bet from Winnipeg would be Roslovic. But he's not 3c material this season, so despite him being a good prospect who's already producing at the NHL level, clearly you won't be interested.

I think your overrating Lowry by a good margin.

Also believe in general these types of guys get overrated as dar as trade value.

I think the Jets and most teams would jump at the oppurtunity to add a significantly better C.

Lowrys and to lesser extents Faskas arent that hard to replace. Its just like the Rust/Panarin hypothetical. The real GMs will make the move a figure out how to replace Rust later.

 

[Peat]

I think your overrating Lowry by a good margin.

Also believe in general these types of guys get overrated as dar as trade value.

I think the Jets and most teams would jump at the oppurtunity to add a significantly better C.

Lowrys and to lesser extents Faskas arent that hard to replace. Its just like the Rust/Panarin hypothetical. The real GMs will make the move a figure out how to replace Rust later.

Then where are all the moves in which GMs move guys like Lowry and Faksa for rentals like Brassard?

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Then where are all the moves in which GMs move guys like Lowry and Faksa for rentals like Brassard?

Its not like it happens every day. Its going to be a rare senario that a team moving a rental 2C is looking for a roster olayer coming back.

Im sure if i look hard enough i can find aome comparables.

Maybe i will comb through some trade histories this afternoon.

 

[Ryder71]

My preferred route would be a cheaper 3C and get a bigger upgrade on the wing. Just need the right attributes more so than the names on paper.

Our 3C doesn’t have to drive the line and another quality winger will make their job and Malkin’s job easier.

So essentially you want a much weaker 3C and want to bolster the wing. Yeah, can't agree there at all. With TB, TOR, and or WAS likely standing in our paths, we'd be at a clear disadvantage. I know we won't get a better player than Brassard, but we can get a better fit. And we shouldn't just settle here. And I don't think we'll have to.

 

[Ryder71]

Then where are all the moves in which GMs move guys like Lowry and Faksa for rentals like Brassard?

Those teams can continue to lose and stay on their current course. How's it been working out so far for them? Nill is in the proverbial hot seat, the Jets are gonna be in cap hell next season, and the Jackets may lose two key cogs to their recent success. The clock is tiking for these teams. So again, they can stay on their current trajectory, and they can promptly lose come playoff time. That is unless they chose another course.

If they feel Brass could move them forward, and considering each teams impending doom, maybe in one or two of those cases, maybe they make such a move. But from the Pens perspective we shouldn't sell lower than guys of that repute. In fact I'd likely prefer both Faksa and Jenner to Lowry at this point. Again WE have the cute girl at the party, not them. The only difference is the cute girl stays with you for a short time, while the homely ones will likely stick around longer. And I sure as hell am not gonna settle for the cafeteria lunch lady! Don't ask me to do that, I wont!