Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building: The Uncoachable & The Unmovable: The Tale of The American Dream

[SHOOTANDSCORE]

Information
2019 NHL Entry Draft - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps
Pittsburgh Penguins - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps
2019 NHL Entry Draft - Wikipedia
2019 NHL Draft
NHL Draft big board: Latest rankings of top 31 prospects in 2019 class

Previous threads:
Salary Cap & Roster Building - Y'all got any more of them Kessel rumors
Salary Cap & Roster building - All of your Pittsburgh born players belong to us
Salary Cap & Roster building - I need a White Russian
Salary Cap: - Salary Cap + Roster Building: Malkin Avengers - EndGame
Salary Cap: - Salary cap+roster building: To Malkin or not to Malkin?
Salary Cap: - Salary Cap + & Roster Building - XXX

And once again, he's never been this bad defensively. While also being worse offensively at ES. When you could replace him with Zucker or any other half decent 40/50pt winger, it says a lot about how far Kessel has fallen over the years.

Not to mention he was playing very good 2 way hockey during the 2016 run. Backchecking hard, disrupting, etc. I don't recall him standing out defensively during the 2017 run but he at least played well enough not to be noticed for it.

And before someone credits Bones (not to discredit his great play,) it wasn't that. It was Phil's effort, dedication, buy in, ... Plain as day.

Click to read more...

 

[Riptide]

How do you know this for certain?

If he did, he wouldn't still be shit defensively after being in the league for the past 10+ years. Nor would he put his own ironman streak ahead of the team.

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

Lehkonen / Shaw for Rust / Bugstad
Kessel for Subban
Duchene @ 8 million
Connolly @ 4
Gudbranson for any picks to add to the Lehkonen / Shaw deal

Mccann - Crosby - Connolly
Guentzel - Malkin - Shaw
Lehkonen - Duchene - Horny
Simon - TB - Zar


Dumo - Letang
Pettersson - Subban @6aav to finish his contract
Ruh - Schultz
riikola

Sorry but that's just awful
Shaw is one hit away from never playing again at a pretty high cap hit
Lehkonen is a solid 2 way player but doesn't produce offensively
We complained about Hagelin not having a scoring touch wait until you see Lehkonen
No way JR even considers that, hangs up on bergevin!

 

[SaucyCelly]

Zucker is a good start but I would definiely be more comfortable adding someone else on top of that. Which actually shouldn't be too hard if you can dump JJ.

Nyquist, Johansson, Donskoi, Connolly, etc. There's options.

I supposed I'd be more down for Kessel/Zucker trade if it included enough picks to offset what it is going to cost us to get rid of JJ. I have absolutely zero interest in the proposed deal with zucker/rask for kessel/johnson. 9.5m vs 10m isn't enough cap space for me to take on a bum like rask...

That way we could do some ufa hunting

 

[mpp9]

My point is we KNOW Malkin - Kessel isn’t successful. If Kessel is refusing to be on the third line, what do you do?

Eh. I get the other side of it. The right LW has made that duo work for stretches.

But I'm more interested in using cap to upgrade the defense and just find players who complement Malkin and the Sid/Guentzel duo. Not catering to Malkin/Kessel.

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

Lehkonen is a solid 2 way player but doesn't produce offensively
We complained about Hagelin not having a scoring touch wait until you see Lehkonen

I don't think that's a fair assessment.

 

[Riptide]

It's not emotional. I'm drawing a distinction between Kessel and Neal, a comparison that many here are trying to make.

That might have been your intention, but that wasn't what you wrote:

Some here are entirely too glib about parting with a player who's been as healthy, productive, and contributed as much as Kessel has to our Cup successes.

The bolded is both a statement of fact and an emotional response. "Can't trade him because he helped us win 2 years ago". Who cares... that was then. This is now. And unfortunately for us, the 2019 version of Kessel isn't the same as the 2016 and 2017 versions of him. If he was, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

[Riptide]

Hey if you can trade Phil and make the team better, sign me up. I just have my doubts.

I'm pretty sure you can. But naturally there will be some significant disagreements about who allows us to be better... The 40/50pt 2way winger who helps Malkin, or the PPG winger who's terrible defensively and does little for Malkin.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

Information
2019 NHL Entry Draft - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps
Pittsburgh Penguins - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps
2019 NHL Entry Draft - Wikipedia
2019 NHL Draft
NHL Draft big board: Latest rankings of top 31 prospects in 2019 class

Previous threads:
Salary Cap & Roster Building - Y'all got any more of them Kessel rumors
Salary Cap & Roster building - All of your Pittsburgh born players belong to us
Salary Cap & Roster building - I need a White Russian
Salary Cap: - Salary Cap + Roster Building: Malkin Avengers - EndGame
Salary Cap: - Salary cap+roster building: To Malkin or not to Malkin?
Salary Cap: - Salary Cap + & Roster Building - XXX

 

[Riptide]

The group arguing against trading Kessel are ignoring 4 vital details to say they should keep him:

1. Kessel doesn't fit anywhere on this team at ES, since Crosby doesn't want to play with him, he's terrible with Malkin and he doesn't want to play on the 3rd line
2. The Penguins need to give Malkin help, which keeping Kessel prevents the Penguins from doing
3. Kessel's negatives are only going to get worse going forward, and he has already shown signs of starting a decline offensively (2 ES goals and 12 ES points in the last 32 games of last year)
4. The Penguins don't have the pieces to make Kessel work here anymore.

Him putting up point totals and making the Penguins powerplay better don't override those 4 points.

@Empoleon8771

I think 2-4 can all be debated. For me it's #1 that is the biggest issue. #1 should be enough for most fans to look at things and go yeah, lets move on and find someone else who's a better fit. But no, it's all about a PPG player and how dare we suggest that a 50pt guy could end up being a much better option for the TEAM.

@BlindWillyMcHurt

Well they certainly can't get Malkin the help he needs when we're spending 6.8m on Kessel. Because the winger we need to insulate Kessel is not the same winger we need for Malkin. Hagelin can sometimes do it, and while when things are clicking can help Malkin... Hagelin is so bad offensively that it's hard to justify spending the 2.5-3.5m on him and stapling him to a top 6 spot when he's going to play at a 3g/15pt pace (his pace here before he was traded).

 

[Empoleon8771]

@Empoleon8771

I think 2-4 can all be debated. For me it's #1 that is the biggest issue. #1 should be enough for most fans to look at things and go yeah, lets move on and find someone else who's a better fit. But no, it's all about a PPG player and how dare we suggest that a 50pt guy could end up being a much better option for the TEAM.

I don't think 2 and 4 are debatable. The only debatable one is how Kessel is going to age. They need to give Malkin help because they don't have a good enough winger duo for him internally and they don't have a Hagelin caliber player to make Kessel work here anymore. Just look at these numbers:

Hagelin from 2015-2018
Rust from 2016-2019 (I should note that a bad analytical 18-19 brings him down, he's a lot better from 15-18)
McCann from 2016-2019 (he's the same in basically every year over this window)

McCann and Rust sure as **** aren't what Hagelin was for the Penguins. There's no one else in the organization that's even in the same mold or same stratosphere as Hagelin was.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

Sorry guys, the information (without screenshots) is on post number 9: Salary Cap: - Salary Cap & Roster Building: The Uncoachable & The Unmovable: The Tale of American Dream

I am still learning how to use my powers and wanted to put a few of the latest posts in the new thread. Next time, I'll quote them instead.

#RookieMistakes

 

[Peat]

McCann and Rust sure as **** aren't what Hagelin was for the Penguins. There's no one else in the organization that's even in the same mold or same stratosphere as Hagelin was.

I am very firmly of this belief. I think McCann and Rust are probably better players, but when it comes to basically doing two players off the puck work, Hagelin was and is awesome and a step above most all but a few.

 

[Peat]

Sorry guys, the information (without screenshots) is on post number 9: Salary Cap: - Salary Cap & Roster Building: The Uncoachable & The Unmovable: The Tale of American Dream

I am still learning how to use my powers and wanted to put a few of the latest posts in the new thread. Next time, I'll quote them instead.

#RookieMistakes

If Uncoachable and Unmovable is the American dream, what's the French Canadian dream?

 

[Scandale du Jour]

If Uncoachable and Unmovable is the American dream, what's the French Canadian dream?

Pretty & Stupid

 

[SHOOTANDSCORE]

Sorry guys, the information (without screenshots) is on post number 9: Salary Cap: - Salary Cap & Roster Building: The Uncoachable & The Unmovable: The Tale of American Dream

I am still learning how to use my powers and wanted to put a few of the latest posts in the new thread. Next time, I'll quote them instead.

#RookieMistakes

I don't mind. This is probably the first thread I've "started" in years.

I added your post to post #1. All good.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I just wish it was draft weekend already. Enough bickering, enough kicking around ideas. Let's see some action, eh?

 

[Riptide]

If only Sully had given Sprong a legit chance on Malkin's wing ...

I'm trying to decide if you're being serious or if you're joking... please tell me you're joking...

 

[Scandale du Jour]

I don't mind. This is probably the first thread I've "started" in years.

I added your post to post #1. All good.

Thank you very much.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I am very firmly of this belief. I think McCann and Rust are probably better players, but when it comes to basically doing two players off the puck work, Hagelin was and is awesome and a step above most all but a few.

I don't even think McCann is in the same mold as Hagelin, he's more of a fast goal scorer that is also good defensively than anything. He's more in the DeBrusk or Zucker mold of winger. Rust is in the same mold as Hagelin, but he's a more skilled and less impactful Hagelin. He trades off the unique traits that makes Hagelin so special to become a more well rounded player. He can't do what Hagelin does, but he offers you a broader range of talents than Hagelin too.

The Penguins don't have anyone internally that can fill the need for Kessel to stay here. You need someone who's excellent on the forecheck, very fast and strong defensively to play opposite of Kessel. McCann isn't a great puck retriever and Rust isn't good enough at those things (plus he's worse on LW than RW).

 

[Turin]

Aren’t we signing Hagelin tho

 

[Riptide]

Zucker had 42 points last year my bad... I'm not sure i believe that Zucker's defense makes up 40 pts, but even if its a minimal difference it still favors Kessel. Do we know he would be better with Malkin?
The PP takes a huge hit, and we will be in the same boat as places like CAR just begging for someone like Kessel on their PP.

Kessel has waived before, so its very possible he will again. Just because he hasn't waived to go to min doesn't mean that he wouldn't for a different team... And PPG players that are less than 7mil are pretty hard to come by so his contract isn't hurting us. JJ's, Guds, and Maata's are the type that are hurting us actively.

Rumors between two stubborn people is going to happen. Adding it all up and you still should come to a point where you don't sell a PPG player for scraps, desperation lead trading Taylor Hall for Adam Larsson, which is something i would love to avoid with Kessel.

No he hasn't. He refused to waive his NTC and open up his list for Toronto and told them to make it work with his 8 team list. He might change his mind, but history isn't on our side here. And while his cap hit exclusively isn't hurting us... his overall play in relation to that cap hit is. A 6.8m winger shouldn't need a defensive ace who's inept offensively as his partner not to be a disaster at ES.

Except you don't need to make up 80pts. Kessel is a ~45pt ES forward as a Penguin. Zucker over that same span has averaged 36 ES points (and that includes a bad 15/16 season before he established himself). If you look at 16/17 to now it goes to 40 ES points (Kessel still averages 45). So you're not talking about a 40pt swing, but 5-10 points at ES. And Zucker gets scored on significantly less than Kessel does.

And while I agree that swapping out Kessel for someone else on the PP would cause a hit... given the overall talent this roster has, I think it would be a lot less of a hit then what you're suggesting.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Does anyone seriously think if he waives his NMC this fanbase will have any shred of good will for him?

 

[Andy99]

Sorry guys, the information (without screenshots) is on post number 9: Salary Cap: - Salary Cap & Roster Building: The Uncoachable & The Unmovable: The Tale of American Dream

I am still learning how to use my powers and wanted to put a few of the latest posts in the new thread. Next time, I'll quote them instead.

#RookieMistakes

Do your “powers” extend to sending a beer over to California? It’s warm today and I’m thirsty...

 

[Peat]

Lets turn the Kessel trade thing onto its head -

What does Malkin really need?

For me, I'd put a big premium on a line where Malkin spends less time in the corners than he currently does.

I also think he could really use some help in the neutral zone. He got swarmed a lot last year when trying to transition the puck and having a few outlets or guys to play with would help a lot.

And obviously, he's gonna be in the offensive zone a lot, so the more help there the better.

I've kinda talked myself into wanting to see McCann-Malkin-Simon some time. Obviously I'd like something more proven, but I feel like they've got all the tools he wants there other than big physicality.

I don't even think McCann is in the same mold as Hagelin, he's more of a fast goal scorer that is also good defensively than anything. He's more in the DeBrusk or Zucker mold of winger. Rust is in the same mold as Hagelin, but he's a more skilled and less impactful Hagelin. He trades off the unique traits that makes Hagelin so special to become a more well rounded player. He can't do what Hagelin does, but he offers you a broader range of talents than Hagelin too.

The Penguins don't have anyone internally that can fill the need for Kessel to stay here. You need someone who's excellent on the forecheck, very fast and strong defensively to play opposite of Kessel. McCann isn't a great puck retriever and Rust isn't good enough at those things (plus he's worse on LW than RW).

I'm not even sure I know what McCann is yet tbh.

I am going to laugh though if we do bring Hagelin back as we send Kessel away.