Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building | Rainbow's End down That Highway Where Ocean Breezes Blow

[Shady Machine]

That's a pretty shortsighted way to look at it, considering Kane has missed games quite often over his career. Kane's career pace is 51 points per 82 games, it's just that he has missed 8 or more games in 7 seasons in his career. In his last 4 years, he has 74 goals and 136 points in 216 games, good for a pace of 28 goals and 52 points per 82 games. Even not including this year and doing 2013-2017, he still has a pace of 27 goals and 49 points per 82 games.

Hornqvist produces marginally more on a much better offensive team, but Kane is the more well rounder player. I'd definitely take Kane over Hornqvist looking purely at ability. They put up comparable numbers, while Hornqvist is in a much better situation than Kane, and Kane offers more than Hornqvist outside of production.

Your response is just as "short sighted". I didn't realize durability wasn't a factor here. Many posters are concerned about Horny's body breaking down, but when it's pointed out that Horny has been more productive over his career, you point out it's not fair since Kane misses a bunch of games with injuries.

Both are 51 point per 82 players over their career, but one stays healthier and has been more consistent year in, year out. One is a great leader and plays by example, the other has a questionable history as a team player and has off ice drama, fair or not. One has won 2 Cups on THIS team and been a major contributor to both, the other has had his character called into question on 2 separate teams.

If JR thinks that Kane is a good fit here and can swing a deal to bring him in, I'll stay positive and be excited about it, but you asked who I would rather sign and I told you. Hornqvist is a better overall hockey player and has proven that in his career.

 

[Saints11]

I mean, at least there is an argument to be made about Kopitar’s overall play.

Maatta is like the ****ty version of OEL in nearly every aspect.

Maatta is much better in his own end than OEL, thus more complete. Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to have OEL, but not as a replacement for Maatta. The Pens need Maatta in our defensive structure.

 

[Ryder71]

He produced the same in Nashville as Pittsburgh. Yeah that's better than the pits of Atlanta, Winnipeg, and Buffalo, but still. Plus, there are many cases of mediocre players producing better on **** teams than on great ones due to all the opportunity they are given. Not saying that's the case with Kane, but you can't always assume a bump when a player comes to Pittsburgh.

I like Horny, I'm just trying to put some context with it. You'll perform better depending on the team and environment. There are exceptions, but in general you'll probably be afforded a better situation to succeed.

 

[Riptide]

It was talked about in several threads throughout the forum at length. Probably on the main board most of all, but it's not that new of a revelation.

And it wasn't discussed here at all, other than that 1 post - at least that I saw. And as that was the first time I'd seen it, I felt like commenting on it. You know... to do what message boards are actually for.

 

[Shady Machine]

I like Horny, I'm just trying to put some context with it. You'll perform better depending on the team and environment. There are exceptions, but in general you'll probably be afforded a better situation to succeed.

Sure, but keep in mind the circumstances of coming to Pittsburgh. Pens already have their PP personnel set, so if you come here from another team and are used to 1PP duties, you will take a hit in PP production on the Pens. ES may provide you with better linemates and more opportunity, but I haven't seen enough evidence to prove that out.

 

[Ryder71]

And it wasn't discussed here at all, other than that 1 post - at least that I saw. And as that was the first time I'd seen it, I felt like commenting on it. You know... to do what message boards are actually for.

I didn't mean it as a criticism, but I figured since you're on the site as much as you are I guess I was surprised you didn't see it.

 

[Riptide]

I didn't mean it as a criticism, but I figured since you're on the site as much as you are I guess I was surprised you didn't see it.

The joys of a job in front of a computer, and frequently with spare time on ones hands. Not sure how I missed it, but I did.

 

[Ryder71]

The joys of a job in front of a computer, and frequently with spare time on ones hands. Not sure how I missed it, but I did.

Fair enough.

 

[cheesedanish87]

That's a pretty shortsighted way to look at it, considering Kane has missed games quite often over his career. Kane's career pace is 51 points per 82 games, it's just that he has missed 8 or more games in 7 seasons in his career. In his last 4 years, he has 74 goals and 136 points in 216 games, good for a pace of 28 goals and 52 points per 82 games. Even not including this year and doing 2013-2017, he still has a pace of 27 goals and 49 points per 82 games.

Hornqvist produces marginally more on a much better offensive team, but Kane is the more well rounder player. I'd definitely take Kane over Hornqvist looking purely at ability. They put up comparable numbers, while Hornqvist is in a much better situation than Kane, and Kane offers more than Hornqvist outside of production.

Kane also produces most of his offense at even strength.

Horny does a lot of his scoring on the PP.

Its hard to find players who can produce 5 on 5, not only can he produce 5 on 5, but hes spent a good portion of his career on the 3rd line basically carrying a line by himself, something that Horny just isn't capable of doing.

In your scenario you would be paying Kane for 6 years, that's age 26-32(You would think Kane would be productive his entire contract)

Horny for 5 years at age 31-36(you don't know what your going to get as Horny ages)

 

[Ryder71]

Sure, but keep in mind the circumstances of coming to Pittsburgh. Pens already have their PP personnel set, so if you come here from another team and are used to 1PP duties, you will take a hit in PP production on the Pens. ES may provide you with better linemates and more opportunity, but I haven't seen enough evidence to prove that out.

He has more SHG's than PPG's, so he can produce without getting much PP time. Even so I'm sure he'd get time on the 2hd unit. IMO it would be a net plus if he came here.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

Kane also produces most of his offense at even strength.

Horny does a lot of his scoring on the PP.

Its hard to find players who can produce 5 on 5, not only can he produce 5 on 5, but hes spent a good portion of his career on the 3rd line basically carrying a line by himself, something that Horny just isn't capable of doing.

In your scenario you would be paying Kane for 6 years, that's age 26-32(You would think Kane would be productive his entire contract)

Horny for 5 years at age 31-36(you don't know what your going to get as Horny ages)

This statement is not based on any data I've ever seen. There's plenty of data the other way for players similar to PH. And there is also plenty of data for falloff for power forwards after age 26 as well.

 

[Gurglesons]

Maatta is much better in his own end than OEL, thus more complete. Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to have OEL, but not as a replacement for Maatta. The Pens need Maatta in our defensive structure.

....Wow.

If we can get OEL, everyone in our line-up outside of Crosby, Kesse, and Malkin is able to be moved.

Also, have you ever watch OEL?

 

[cheesedanish87]

This statement is not based on any data I've ever seen. There's plenty of data the other way for players similar to PH. And there is also plenty of data for falloff for power forwards after age 26 as well.

Players don't get better once they hit 30, they only get worse.

 

[WayneSid9987]

Everything i've been reading suggests teams would probably go after the more inexpensive beef up than take the chance and pay the price stated for Kane.
GM's that heard the "it's now 4 pieces" thing told Dreger or one of em, yea thats gonna be a hard no from us.
And the point that alotta teams aren't offering their 1st's is no doubt true as well.

I think when it boils down here it'll be:

-who's gonna willingly pay their 1st. Contending teams are more likely to do so but even then they may have other options like i said. Team like VAN or CGY, do they gamble and pay their 1st +?
-team like STL, are they willing to let go of one of their top prospects which they have alot of and is the likely cost more than the 1st.
-team like NSH who depleted their prospect pool a nice chunk to acquire Turris, are they willing to part with a 1st + another prospect...
-think other Cali teams would have interest...ANA, LA, SJS...but again are they willing to pay the price + offer up the $/term it'll take to get him retained...

You factor all that in and the GM's more willing to take a chance are the ones that probably land him. Is it gonna be the GM chasing thier 1st Cup or perhaps the one that has 3 and 2 in the last 2 years?
Chances are JR may simply be one of the last few standing and could possibly get him IF the interest remains constant for the player.

If JR lands him, i want a contract lined up the second he's traded. I wanna put the pieces in place to win the next several years. Not try and find a way to win 3 in a row.

Theres other ways to do it without a Kane too but when you're patiently waiting and pouncing on pieces to the puzzle, for me, Kane's a piece to pounce on.

 

[PensandCaps]

12-13 I'll give you, the other 2 nah. 15-16 Malkin was a big part of a Cup team.

At the end of the day, would you trade Malkin for Kopitar right now? I can't believe I'm even having this conversation.

I value that Kopitar stayed healthy and yah know, plays elite defense. And carries scrub wingers.

Right now would i trade Kopitar for Malkin? No, easily.

Both are equal players BUT Malkin has a cheaper cap hit.

 

[PensandCaps]

Kopi is basically at his best what people say Toews is.

Kopitar is much better than Toews.

Kopitar has 6 70 point seasons

Toews has just one.

Kopitar has had worse linemates and plays better Defense.

 

[MtlPenFan]

The greatness of Jonathan Toews is one of the biggest myths ever pushed upon hockey fans.

 

[Gurglesons]

Kopitar is much better than Toews.

Kopitar has 6 70 point seasons

Toews has just one.

Kopitar has had worse linemates and plays better Defense.

Yeah, so. Kopi is what people say Toews is. A premier two-way center.

 

[Shady Machine]

I value that Kopitar stayed healthy and yah know, plays elite defense. And carries scrub wingers.

Right now would i trade Kopitar for Malkin? No, easily.

Both are equal players BUT Malkin has a cheaper cap hit.

Lol okay we're done here. Equal players? Get out of here with that garbage.

 

[Harvey Birdman]

Maatta is much better in his own end than OEL, thus more complete. Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to have OEL, but not as a replacement for Maatta. The Pens need Maatta in our defensive structure.

I love Maatta, but I would personally fly from California, rent a car and drive Maatta to Arizona myself if we could flip him for OEL. I don't believe that deal is there, but in a vacuum. I would gladly take OEL over Maatta on this team.

 

[PensandCaps]

Lol okay we're done here. Equal players? Get out of here with that garbage.

They are. Imo. Kopitar has had to carry meh wingers most hia career and is still near a PPG. He's a better Bergeron. Sorry that I value Defense and availability. Malkins 2 more points this year don't make up for Kopitars defense and facing the toughest matchups night in and night out.

Look at Kopitars Zone starts. He doesn't get 70% Ozone starts like Malkin.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Are we getting Kopitar or OEL?

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

They are. Imo. Kopitar has had to carry meh wingers most hia career and is still near a PPG. He's a better Bergeron. Sorry that I value Defense and availability. Malkins 2 more points this year don't make up for Kopitars defense and facing the toughest matchups night in and night out.

Look at Kopitars Zone starts. He doesn't get 70% Ozone starts like Malkin.

Ok 2 points this year.

But on average Malkin paces 24 more points per 82 games over their career. I mean i know Kopitar is good defensively and all but that is A LOT.

 

[Gurglesons]

They are. Imo. Kopitar has had to carry meh wingers most hia career and is still near a PPG. He's a better Bergeron. Sorry that I value Defense and availability. Malkins 2 more points this year don't make up for Kopitars defense and facing the toughest matchups night in and night out.

Look at Kopitars Zone starts. He doesn't get 70% Ozone starts like Malkin.

Kopi has had better to equal players on his wing. Gaborik, Brown, Williams, etc.

 

[Shady Machine]

They are. Imo. Kopitar has had to carry meh wingers most hia career and is still near a PPG. He's a better Bergeron. Sorry that I value Defense and availability. Malkins 2 more points this year don't make up for Kopitars defense and facing the toughest matchups night in and night out.

Look at Kopitars Zone starts. He doesn't get 70% Ozone starts like Malkin.

Who has Malkin played with in his career? He won the Conn Smythe playing with Talbot and Fedotenko while scoring the 7th most all time in a playoffs. The only 3 higher are Gretzky, Lemieux, and Coffey.

Sorry dude, but building an argument around Kopitar's wingers vs Malkin is just silly. The dude has been carrying 3rd and 4th liners on his wing most of his career.