Salary Cap: Salary Cap + Roster Building | No Hate

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Part of me would rather trade Phil for young pieces than trade Sprong before we know what he is.

Is it weird that that's kind of where I am, too? Despite being a big Kessel fan and also not being an overly-huge Sprong backer?

I just think there is the combination of too much promise and too much uncertainty as to WHAT Sprong really is. And really why should that guy still be a question mark at this point? That sorta tells me that the folks that say he hasn't gotten a completely fair shake are likely on to something.

Or he's just a bust.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Is it weird that that's kind of where I am, too? Despite being a big Kessel fan and also not being an overly-huge Sprong backer?

I just think there is the combination of too much promise and too much uncertainty as to WHAT Sprong really is. And really why should that guy still be a question mark at this point? That sorta tells me that the folks that say he hasn't gotten a completely fair shake are likely on to something.

Or he's just a bust.

It's a tougher question than most would say, but I do think it's a little weird. On one hand, Kessel is a proven commodity and is way better than anything Sprong will ever be. On the other hand, he's a decade older, he's way more expensive, he doesn't fit well in any line combination on the team and is at risk of declining soon. I still think the answer is that I wouldn't trade Kessel to keep Sprong, but it's not as ridiculous of a question as some would say it is.

It's a 2 sided response. Why would you keep someone with Kessel's age, cap hit and poor fit over Sprong, when he's much cheaper and younger, is a better fit with your centers and could potentially offer similar strengths? On the other hand, why would you keep Sprong over Kessel when you're a cup-contender and Sprong hasn't proven anything?

 

[66-30-33]

Is it weird that that's kind of where I am, too? Despite being a big Kessel fan and also not being an overly-huge Sprong backer?

I just think there is the combination of too much promise and too much uncertainty as to WHAT Sprong really is. And really why should that guy still be a question mark at this point? That sorta tells me that the folks that say he hasn't gotten a completely fair shake are likely on to something.

Or he's just a bust.

I'm ok with that if we get a good LW and youngish top4 D for Kessel. Then Maatta for an RW, maybe even include Rust if it's a better something idk. As long as we don't mess with our team speed though, but younger and hungrier.

 

[Gurglesons]

It's a tougher question than most would say, but I do think it's a little weird. On one hand, Kessel is a proven commodity and is way better than anything Sprong will ever be. On the other hand, he's a decade older, he's way more expensive, he doesn't fit well in any line combination on the team and is at risk of declining soon. I still think the answer is that I wouldn't trade Kessel to keep Sprong, but it's not as ridiculous of a question as some would say it is.

It's a 2 sided response. Why would you keep someone with Kessel's age, cap hit and poor fit over Sprong, when he's much cheaper and younger, is a better fit with your centers and could potentially offer similar strengths? On the other hand, why would you keep Sprong over Kessel when you're a cup-contender and Sprong hasn't proven anything?

I think the main thing with Kessel like Letang is if we are moving them I prefer it be at the draft and a 1st is involved.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

It's a tougher question than most would say, but I do think it's a little weird. On one hand, Kessel is a proven commodity and is way better than anything Sprong will ever be. On the other hand, he's a decade older, he's way more expensive, he doesn't fit well in any line combination on the team and is at risk of declining soon. I still think the answer is that I wouldn't trade Kessel to keep Sprong, but it's not as ridiculous of a question as some would say it is.

It's a 2 sided response. Why would you keep someone with Kessel's age, cap hit and poor fit over Sprong, when he's much cheaper and younger, is a better fit with your centers and could potentially offer similar strengths? On the other hand, why would you keep Sprong over Kessel when you're a cup-contender and Sprong hasn't proven anything?

Right. It's a more complex question than just points and legacy. Obviously Kessel wins in spades, there. But it's of course also about fit, team identity, asset management (trade return would be significantly larger), long term roster building and of course Sprong's largely-still-undetermined potential as a SCORING line wing.

Sprong will never be a player as productive as Kessel. I'm pretty confident in saying that. But it goes a bit beyond that, at least to me. It's hard not to watch Kessel out there and more often than not think to myself "what the hell does this team do with this guy?" There has been a lot of tinkering that has simply not worked. And the best he looks is on a line that even I admit is flawed even if I very much enjoy watching it.

 

[Peat]

Is it weird that that's kind of where I am, too? Despite being a big Kessel fan and also not being an overly-huge Sprong backer?

I just think there is the combination of too much promise and too much uncertainty as to WHAT Sprong really is. And really why should that guy still be a question mark at this point? That sorta tells me that the folks that say he hasn't gotten a completely fair shake are likely on to something.

Or he's just a bust.

Yes. Definitely weird. Maybe weird and right, but definitely weird.

I'd also point out that

A) If the team talked trading Kessel in the summer when people had cap space and nobody offered a good price, the likelihood they'd do so now when cap space is complicated is pretty low. You're hoping someone like LA goes mental trying to rescue their season, and that would be pretty stupid and there's not many LAs out there (i.e. struggling and Phil would go to).

B) We might have our doubts as to what Sprong is but the guys who see him in practice every day and constantly go over his video and who talk to the coaches who had him the year before (this is Sully's third stint of coaching him at NHL level right?) should have a lot less of those doubts. They should know what they've got and where he fits in, even if we don't.

I was going to add that it's not a zero sum game but I guess it kinda is actually. Too many RWs, too many wingers in need of defensive insulation, too many guys looking for a spot with Geno... no Kessel would force their hand a lot, having Kessel there means they've got to go out of their way. Hell, that was part of my rationale behind being pro-Kessel trade this summer. But now? No.

 

[Gurglesons]

Now back to an actual relevant discussion, because this isn't 2014 anymore. I proposed moving Maatta, Sprong and Rust to LA for Pearson and Muzzin, the feedback I've gotten has been good. Does anyone have any more opinions to offer on that? I personally feel like it's a pretty good offer, it's a deal that addresses struggling players and the needs of the Penguins and shakes the team up.



The context was that they decided the locks on the team were Suter, McDonagh, Martin and Orpik. Lombardi said the "5th guy" because they had identified 4 locks already.



Now you're just reaching. Here's an article with the comments, it's really clear that Lombardi is taking a shot at the coaching staff of Michigan. It means a hell of a lot more for Lombardi to be saying "Johnson is great, he's definitely in my top-5" in 2014 than to say that Johnson was terrible in college because his coach was terrible.

I am reaching?

Lombardi on Johnson in 2010

“Jack was a thoroughbred out there,” Lombardi explained. “But he was all over the place. He was awful as a hockey player. As an athlete, you’re going, wow! Look at the way he skates, shoots, he can pass. But he had no idea where he was going.”

“At times, he was playing forward at Michigan,” Lombardi elaborated. “You had no idea what position he was playing. But he had always been the star and he always got his numbers. Then he turns pro and for the first time, we’re telling him ‘whoa, just make the first pass and learn to play in your own end.’ How about making a read in your own end about the right guy to pick up? He was awful.”

“It was a big risk for us to trade for him,” said Lombardi. “There was all that hype and stuff because he’s just like a thoroughbred. It’s like looking at a horse and saying wow! But then he gets on the track and he has no clue how to run the race. He might even run in the wrong direction. That was Jack. [He was] really raw.”

I don't know what else those types of words mean. Not to mention he traded him.

And I guess you can read these things two ways. You're reading them as positives, because Lombardi and the US Hockey management throw in some positives. That is because he was a young / younger player that they thought they could change. What I see in that US Hockey article is the GMs that still are in the game noticing that he isn't getting better, he's getting worse.

I guess it is like stats around here, you can twist anything to make things work.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

@Peat - fair enough. I just don't see it as quite so cut and dry.

Kessel has been one of my favorite Penguins the last few years. Kessel also seems to be the root of some roster weirdness. Though I would ABSOLUTELY argue he isn't the only one.

 

[Peat]

@Peat - fair enough. I just don't see it as quite so cut and dry.

Kessel has been one of my favorite Penguins the last few years. Kessel also seems to be the root of some roster weirdness. Though I would ABSOLUTELY argue he isn't the only one.

Heh. Preaching to the choir on the roster weirdness (although maybe not as much as Sid's winger preferences).

Maybe I am making it out to be too cut and dry. Certainly, being able to move on from Kessel for our assets back with Sprong taking on a lot of his mantle was always the dream. My gut says its not materialising, but...?

The one aspect where I don't think I'm being too cut and dry is the prospect of getting a good Kessel deal and the extent to which that puts a kibosh on things. I don't know for sure it's not there, but it seems by the far the likeliest scenario.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Jim Rutherford smells trouble and is preparing to make a...

In case anyone doubted it for any reason, Rutherford's going to make a trade soon. It's seems like a click-bait title though, he's "contemplating trades", "preparing to make a trade" implies more IMO.

 

[Andy99]

Right thread for this I guess? Idk.

Copy pasta from a reddit comment:

Mackey just now on 93.7 Cook & Starkey said of a possible Sprong trade: "is inevitable", "soon", "maybe by Saturday".

Adios young blood.

So we’re goimg to trade Sprong for a plug and grinder that will play on the 4th line and soon be waived to AHL? Or a 5th round pick? Or another prospect someone has soured on who Sully will also hate and waive to the A? He’s not getting back anything more...

All because the coach hates him and won’t play him— a coach who has other issues and may not be here as long as the player and a coach who can’t find an identity for the team....

Great asset management...but we’re sadly used to this crap...

Btw, Madden is killing it lately with his columns and I don’t even like him....

Mark Madden: Disconnect clear between Penguins coach, GM

 

[EightyOne]

So we’re goimg to trade Sprong for a plug and grinder that will play on the 4th line and soon be waived to AHL? Or a 5th round pick? Or another prospect someone has soured on who Sully will also hate and waive to the A? He’s not getting back anything more...

All because the coach hates him and won’t play him— a coach who has other issues and may not be here as long as the player and a coach who can’t find an identity for the team....

Great asset management...but we’re sadly used to this crap...

Btw, Madden is killing it lately with his columns and I don’t even like him....

Mark Madden: Disconnect clear between Penguins coach, GM

 

[Andy99]

Jim Rutherford smells trouble and is preparing to make a...

In case anyone doubted it for any reason, Rutherford's going to make a trade soon. It's seems like a click-bait title though, he's "contemplating trades", "preparing to make a trade" implies more IMO.

And that trouble is the minor 8 minute player and some time scratch Daniel Sprong?...give me a ****ing break...

 

[Peat]

The big thing is that I don't think they're at this point yet, and they're still spending somewhat significant money on non-elite guys. The solution to that isn't only "trade Rust", but they're in that spot of paying too many non-core players for too much money and too long of term. It also wasn't keep Rust or get rid of Rust, it was keep Rust or move Rust for someone who hasn't been with the team for 3 years already.

Also, Mackey apparently said that a Sprong trade is "inevitable" and "may happen by Saturday". So bye Sprong I guess.

Do you mean individually or altogether? Individually I'd argue. Altogether... I kinda get it, but I think the individual prices are fair and I didn't see smarter uses for the money in the Summer, so why not? You can always trade them if things don't work out. Better a slightly inefficient deal for free than a killer deal that costs you far too much to acquire.

And in terms of the kids - we'll see. In terms of fairly like for like for Rust, Johnson is the only guy we've got with a hope and it looks like he's got some consistency issues to work through. In terms of general talent... it looks like there's options.

I'm something of an apologist for Sheary, and while I'd go so far as to say Sheary was showing much more than Sprong in limited situations at the same point in his career, the idea that he ever managed to be able to play a "heavy" game or got to the point where he was effective on the boards is not something I'd agree with at all.

What Sheary did that made a player out of him was that he was able to surprise people with acceleration on the rush and had a knack for getting open at exactly the right time when the play was already in the offensive zone.

I thought Sheary was good on the boards in the offensive zone and an effective forechecker. Rancid on the boards in his own zone, but good in attack. And I thought that helped him look an attractive option on the 4th line and helped get him a place with Sid - he was never getting a place on forechecking alone, but I'm not sure he'd have got one on attacking skill alone either.

If Letang can insulate JJ and allow Dumoulin to take on some tough minutes on a separate pairing, there's really no reason for Maatta to be here anymore. He's not a top 4 D in that scenario and Oleksiak, Rik and Ruh can give you 10-15 minutes/night.

We've been pretty consistent about using our bottom pairing heavily and having quality players on it. 2A and 2B. A guy doesn't have to be in the top 4 officially to be worth it to us.

I don't know if he's going to recover form enough to be that guy, but theoretically he'd very valuable for us if he did.

I mean... honestly I just don't agree, Empo. I fully realize they would never trade the guy this far into his (really long) contract. But JJ just isn't this "who is he?" kind of player. He's stunk for a while. He'll continue to stink here.

Play him with Letang potentially? Wha... ?

I mean... its happening. And its working. Its not some idea at this point, its a real working partnership with better underlying numbers than Letang-Dumo and that's after two (theoretically) tough games. Whether it can stay working, that's a big question, but its earned the right to find out.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I mean... its happening. And its working. Its not some idea at this point, its a real working partnership with better underlying numbers than Letang-Dumo and that's after two (theoretically) tough games. Whether it can stay working, that's a big question, but its earned the right to find out.

True enough, I suppose. Though I guess I'd reference the Malkin/Horns combo that briefly "worked" when Malkin just so happened to be playing some of the finest hockey in his illustrious career. I mean... we've all seen how Letang has elevated his game this year...

I'm not trying to give JJ zero credit. I just really, really don't see it with this guy. Especially on THIS team. YMMV and that's all good.

 

[Turin]

So we’re goimg to trade Sprong for a plug and grinder that will play on the 4th line and soon be waived to AHL? Or a 5th round pick? Or another prospect someone has soured on who Sully will also hate and waive to the A? He’s not getting back anything more...

All because the coach hates him and won’t play him— a coach who has other issues and may not be here as long as the player and a coach who can’t find an identity for the team....

Great asset management...but we’re sadly used to this crap...

Btw, Madden is killing it lately with his columns and I don’t even like him....

Mark Madden: Disconnect clear between Penguins coach, GM

Madden isn’t wrong. If you want a shakeup trade the guys who aren’t producing and eating cap space.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

And that trouble is the minor 8 minute player and some time scratch Daniel Sprong?...give me a ****ing break...

Yeah, if he's not part of a package deal then I don't really see the point.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Madden isn’t wrong. If you want a shakeup trade the guys who aren’t producing and eating cap space.

For real. I guess that's a whole other angle of the entire "trade Sprong" push. What, exactly, does that really solve? It certainly doesn't send much of a message, really. Or at least not a good one.

 

[Andy99]

For real. I guess that's a whole other angle of the entire "trade Sprong" push. What, exactly, does that really solve? It certainly doesn't send much of a message, really. Or at least not a good one.

It sends the message that Mike Sullivan is in charge and has all the power and just ignore whatever JR says and does...because if Sprong alone is traded it is solely because that’s what the coach wants and for no other reason....the disconnect between GM and coach (seen it with Reaves too) is much greater than Madden says it is and that’s a huge problem because the players don’t match the system...hard to do much winning in that scenario....

 

[PensandCaps]

I feel like Rust may be gone soon. Aswell as Maatta.

Then I Guess you keep Sprong if you trade Rust.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Honestly I would be shocked if they moved Rust. I personally wouldn't be heartbroken but the team seems to be borderline infatuated with him.

And I hate Madden but I find myself agreeing with him a disturbing amount, lately.

 

[EightyOne]

Honestly I would be shocked if they moved Rust. I personally wouldn't be heartbroken but the team seems to be borderline infatuated with him.

And I hate Madden but I find myself agreeing with him a disturbing amount, lately.

I will only be shocked if the roster today survives through February.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I will only be shocked if the roster today survives through February.

Well yeah!

This is JR we're talkin' about! He'd break out the putter and the Changs even if the team hadn't lost one game by February.

 

[Andy99]

Honestly I would be shocked if they moved Rust. I personally wouldn't be heartbroken but the team seems to be borderline infatuated with him.

And I hate Madden but I find myself agreeing with him a disturbing amount, lately.

I’ll be really surprised if they move Rust this soon because Sully loves him...I could see it if he’s still struggling at the end of the year but it’s too soon imo to move a regular player....that why I think all of the JR’s comments are just bloviating....he’s frustrated...plus, if the coach wants a fast team you’re not going to move out one of the fastest players unless you get another fast player back in here...

If anyone moves it’s Sprong imo and it’s solely because the coach hates him and is not being done to send a message to anyone or change the makeup of the team because it wouldn’t do anything

 

[Son Goku]

That dude on the left almost looks like Sid

Because it is