Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building | Man, Oh, Man, Oh, Friend of Mine. All Good Things in All Good Time

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Jag68Sid87

Sullivan gots to go!
Oct 1, 2003
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And honestly? There were still times I missed Reaves.

Guentzel cannot be our #3C when healthy - he just can't. At least not this season. Maybe if the plan was to keep him there for a full year to let him learn it, maybe that would work. But in the small sample size, what we've seen is that he's better then Rowney, but that's about it.

Yeah well the options might end up being Dea, Rowney or Guentzel. I doubt it, because JR usually makes a move but it sure seems to me teams are not cooperating with JR this year and want to see him overpay for mediocrity. I think that is the reality of the situation right now. Call it collusion against the champs, but it does seem like nobody wants us to get better. Well, maybe everybody except Mr. Holland in Motown. Maybe we should call him again???

As for Guentzel, we also have to remember his wingers when he was playing center...Sheary and Kessel. It was a line designed for all offense, all the time. Guentzel is definitely not ready for that, even I can admit that.

But why not give him a responsible winger to play with, maybe two?

Why not try him in between the Swedes? Or why not try Rust and Kessel?

I just think the experiment died too quickly.

At this point, we may have to hope that Dea is for real. Because he might be the best option.
 

Coach Travis

Back2Back!!!
Jun 29, 2005
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Playing Devils advocate for the moment, what if we don't need a 3C?

Over the years we've heard every position get shimmied into the cliché "...wins championships" whether it's defence wins championships, goaltending wins championships, scoring depth, centre depth, etc., etc. The only cliché I buy into is that there's no wrong way to win.

Let's look at the Nashville Predators from last season. Their Centre depth was not great. They had Ryan Johansen (0.93 Points/Gm), Colton Sissons (0.54 PPG), Calle Jarnkrok (0.33 PPG) and Mike Fisher (0.2 PPG). And then they lost Johansen against the Ducks. But they were stacked on the wings and, of course, stacked on the wings. And even without their #1C, they were almost too much to handle for the Pens. If not for a combination of Matt Murray being unreal, Pikka Rinne being a sieve in Pittsburgh, and the Pens injecting PDO into their veins, that series could've gone a lot differently. Now, of course, Nashville is built around their D but their wingers, man, their wingers were too much for nearly any team to stop.

Back to the Penguins: Our Centre depth is not amazing but is still better than average. And if it were easy to find an impact 3C that'd be the easiest fix but it would seem that we're down to Pageau, Letestu and Andrew Shaw as options. I know some around here are suddenly pretty high on Pageau but that's like being a dog salivating over table scraps while there's filet mignon available. If it came down to it, I'd rather grab one of the impact LWs who are supposedly available and run with what we've got. It's not about having the best 4 down the middle. If it were, the Oilers would be unstoppable. It's about having 4 good LINES.
 

mpp9

Registered User
Dec 5, 2010
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Playing Devils advocate for the moment, what if we don't need a 3C?

Over the years we've heard every position get shimmied into the cliché "...wins championships" whether it's defence wins championships, goaltending wins championships, scoring depth, centre depth, etc., etc. The only cliché I buy into is that there's no wrong way to win.

Let's look at the Nashville Predators from last season. Their Centre depth was not great. They had Ryan Johansen (0.93 Points/Gm), Colton Sissons (0.54 PPG), Calle Jarnkrok (0.33 PPG) and Mike Fisher (0.2 PPG). And then they lost Johansen against the Ducks. But they were stacked on the wings and, of course, stacked on the wings. And even without their #1C, they were almost too much to handle for the Pens. If not for a combination of Matt Murray being unreal, Pikka Rinne being a sieve in Pittsburgh, and the Pens injecting PDO into their veins, that series could've gone a lot differently. Now, of course, Nashville is built around their D but their wingers, man, their wingers were too much for nearly any team to stop.

Back to the Penguins: Our Centre depth is not amazing but is still better than average. And if it were easy to find an impact 3C that'd be the easiest fix but it would seem that we're down to Pageau, Letestu and Andrew Shaw as options. I know some around here are suddenly pretty high on Pageau but that's like being a dog salivating over table scraps while there's filet mignon available. If it came down to it, I'd rather grab one of the impact LWs who are supposedly available and run with what we've got. It's not about having the best 4 down the middle. If it were, the Oilers would be unstoppable. It's about having 4 good LINES.

I agree to the extent that centers don’t need to carry lines. Phil can do so with a center who can just get him the puck and play 200 ft. Literally Sheahan with a bit more finish/awareness.

Which is why I think Kane is the guy to get. He plays differently than a typical winger. He’d do more to give us four good lines than a center marginally better than Sheahan.

We won a Cup with a rookie goalie. Won another without a #1D. Add not having a great 3C to this year’s Cup run and fill some other holes. I’d be happy with that.
 

Speaking Moistly

What a terrible image.
Feb 19, 2013
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I agree to the extent that centers don’t need to carry lines. Phil can do so with a center who can just get him the puck and play 200 ft. Literally Sheahan with a bit more finish/awareness.

Which is why I think Kane is the guy to get. He plays differently than a typical winger. He’d do more to give us four good lines than a center marginally better than Sheahan.

We won a Cup with a rookie goalie. Won another without a #1D. Add not having a great 3C to this year’s Cup run and fill some other holes. I’d be happy with that.

I’d normally agree with this line of thinking because teams will have holes. Right now I’d say the Pens also don’t have a 1D. I think they could adapt around Sheahan as the 3C (probably Sheary-Sheahan-Hornqvist as L3 or adding a gritty LW to help a Sheahan-Kessel pairing) but they have a massive problem on the backend as well.... and no Cullen for L4.

Rookie goalie
No 1D
3C problems, no 1D, no great 4C if Sheahan is at 3C
 

Shady Machine

Registered User
Aug 6, 2010
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Playing Devils advocate for the moment, what if we don't need a 3C?

Over the years we've heard every position get shimmied into the cliché "...wins championships" whether it's defence wins championships, goaltending wins championships, scoring depth, centre depth, etc., etc. The only cliché I buy into is that there's no wrong way to win.

Let's look at the Nashville Predators from last season. Their Centre depth was not great. They had Ryan Johansen (0.93 Points/Gm), Colton Sissons (0.54 PPG), Calle Jarnkrok (0.33 PPG) and Mike Fisher (0.2 PPG). And then they lost Johansen against the Ducks. But they were stacked on the wings and, of course, stacked on the wings. And even without their #1C, they were almost too much to handle for the Pens. If not for a combination of Matt Murray being unreal, Pikka Rinne being a sieve in Pittsburgh, and the Pens injecting PDO into their veins, that series could've gone a lot differently. Now, of course, Nashville is built around their D but their wingers, man, their wingers were too much for nearly any team to stop.

Back to the Penguins: Our Centre depth is not amazing but is still better than average. And if it were easy to find an impact 3C that'd be the easiest fix but it would seem that we're down to Pageau, Letestu and Andrew Shaw as options. I know some around here are suddenly pretty high on Pageau but that's like being a dog salivating over table scraps while there's filet mignon available. If it came down to it, I'd rather grab one of the impact LWs who are supposedly available and run with what we've got. It's not about having the best 4 down the middle. If it were, the Oilers would be unstoppable. It's about having 4 good LINES.

You need to have a competitive advantage. The Predators competitive advantage has long been their defense. It was never enough until they got high end forwards. AND, keep in mind that while those centers aren't high end, it was fairly solid depth. That didn't stop them from going and getting what they were missing. That's why they "overpaid" Nick Bonino and why they went after Kyle Turris.

Now they have enviable defense AND one of the best center cores in the league.

The Pens won on the best set of centers in the league along with a fairly deep group of wingers. What are we going to win on this year if we don't fill that center spot? We haven't really gotten better anywhere else.
 
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WayneSid9987

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Nov 24, 2009
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Bonino was a driver in 2015-2016:
http://hockeyviz.com/fixedImg/wowy/1516/PIT/boninni88/


edit:
and he wasn't a driver in 2016-2017 which is coincidentally when HBK couldn't do jack.


gafel, i'd be curious what guys like Plekanec, Bozak and Letestu charts are recently if you can give some insight there.
Are they Bonino before he got here makes everyone better types or Sutter drag everyone down types.
If you can think of other available C's too maybe to throw in there: Brassard, Zach Smith, Spooner, etc.
I'd be curious who ranks best to worst out of Pageau, Pleks, Bozak, Letestu, Brassard, Smith, Spooner, etc.
 
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mpp9

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You need to have a competitive advantage. The Predators competitive advantage has long been their defense. It was never enough until they got high end forwards. AND, keep in mind that while those centers aren't high end, it is good depth. That didn't stop them from going and getting what they were missing. That's why they "overpaid" Nick Bonino and why they went after Kyle Turris.

Now they have enviable defense AND one of the best center cores in the league.

The Pens won on the best set of centers in the league along with a fairly deep group of wingers. What are we going to win on this year if we don't fill that center spot? We haven't really gotten better anywhere else.

Totally disagree. We won in 16 because we were faster than everyone else and overwhelmed with 4 lines of it. We won last year because we had the playoff leading goal scorer to go along with three elite offensive players. We scored our way out of issues.

This year? I think we can get back to the 16 version with a bit more high end talent if we add another scoring forward.
 

Malkinstheman

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Aug 12, 2012
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If Carolina falls out of the race in the next few weeks, could Victor Rask become available? Im not really sure what their needs are though.
 

Gurglesons

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Dec 18, 2009
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Totally disagree. We won in 16 because we were faster than everyone else and overwhelmed with 4 lines of it. We won last year because we had the playoff leading goal scorer to go along with three elite offensive players. We scored our way out of issues.

This year? I think we can get back to the 16 version with a bit more high end talent if we add another scoring forward.

So, our advantage the last two playoffs was not the unrivaled center depth we had?

Hm. Could’ve fooled me.
 
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Honour Over Glory

Fire Sully
Jan 30, 2012
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If Carolina falls out of the race in the next few weeks, could Victor Rask become available? Im not really sure what their needs are though.
Depth wingers. They have very good depth down the middle and can easily move someone into Rasks spot if they were to move him. I feel like they'd want a winger from us for him. Either Sheary or Sprong and a pick. Rask has struggled huge in Carolina and there are plenty of other players on that team that are having a solid year again and their contract is up. Either ufa or rfa.
 

mpp9

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So, our advantage the last two playoffs was not the unrivaled center depth we had?

Hm. Could’ve fooled me.

It was an advantage. Sure. Especially versus Nashville who had a bunch of 3Cs with Johansen out.

SJ had Thornton, Pavelski and Couture against us at center in the 16 Final. We still dominated them. And it’s not because Crosby, Malkin and Bonino as a group are ridiculously better. It’s because we were light years faster as a group and overwhelmed them on the breakout and backcheck. That was our advantage.
 

Shady Machine

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Aug 6, 2010
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Totally disagree. We won in 16 because we were faster than everyone else and overwhelmed with 4 lines of it. We won last year because we had the playoff leading goal scorer to go along with three elite offensive players. We scored our way out of issues.

This year? I think we can get back to the 16 version with a bit more high end talent if we add another scoring forward.

Uh, don't you think Bonino and Cullen were important to them winning? Would they have won that year if you sub out Cullen and put in Rowney?

Of course playing faster than everyone was a major factor. I never disagreed with that, but a BIG part of being able to roll 4 lines is having 4 quality centers.
 

mpp9

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Dec 5, 2010
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Uh, don't you think Bonino and Cullen were important to them winning? Would they have won that year if you sub out Cullen and put in Rowney?

Of course playing faster than everyone was a major factor. I never disagreed with that, but a BIG part of being able to roll 4 lines is having 4 quality centers.

This is in the context of constructing a team. I’m not grabbing a player at the deadline so we can say we have sweet center depth again. I’m grabbing a player to help make us a quick possession monster again like 16.

Im taking Kane over a lot of the center options being thrown out there.
 

NeedleInTheHay

Registered User
Mar 26, 2008
7,006
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Playing Devils advocate for the moment, what if we don't need a 3C?

Over the years we've heard every position get shimmied into the cliché "...wins championships" whether it's defence wins championships, goaltending wins championships, scoring depth, centre depth, etc., etc. The only cliché I buy into is that there's no wrong way to win.

Let's look at the Nashville Predators from last season. Their Centre depth was not great. They had Ryan Johansen (0.93 Points/Gm), Colton Sissons (0.54 PPG), Calle Jarnkrok (0.33 PPG) and Mike Fisher (0.2 PPG). And then they lost Johansen against the Ducks. But they were stacked on the wings and, of course, stacked on the wings. And even without their #1C, they were almost too much to handle for the Pens. If not for a combination of Matt Murray being unreal, Pikka Rinne being a sieve in Pittsburgh, and the Pens injecting PDO into their veins, that series could've gone a lot differently. Now, of course, Nashville is built around their D but their wingers, man, their wingers were too much for nearly any team to stop.

Back to the Penguins: Our Centre depth is not amazing but is still better than average. And if it were easy to find an impact 3C that'd be the easiest fix but it would seem that we're down to Pageau, Letestu and Andrew Shaw as options. I know some around here are suddenly pretty high on Pageau but that's like being a dog salivating over table scraps while there's filet mignon available. If it came down to it, I'd rather grab one of the impact LWs who are supposedly available and run with what we've got. It's not about having the best 4 down the middle. If it were, the Oilers would be unstoppable. It's about having 4 good LINES.

Bonino missed most of the cup final. So we didn’t have a 3C or 1D and still beat Nashville.
 

Riptide

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Dec 29, 2011
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Totally disagree. We won in 16 because we were faster than everyone else and overwhelmed with 4 lines of it. We won last year because we had the playoff leading goal scorer to go along with three elite offensive players. We scored our way out of issues.

This year? I think we can get back to the 16 version with a bit more high end talent if we add another scoring forward.

But it was more than just speed - we had talent on each line. Our 3rd line produced as well as our first 2 lines. The speed factor helped a LOT - but it was more so our overall quality of depth that won that for us.

We need a center. That's not debateable. How good is - to an extent. But we've seen how much better our team looks when we have a very good 4C vs a crap one. I think we will have a chance if we bring in another center near Sheahan's level. No guarantee's of course, but at least that will give us options in regards to running 4 lines, something I do not think we have the personal to do currently in a way that's effective enough to win.
 

ncm7772

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Apr 10, 2016
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Jarry reassigned to WBS! Wow! Didn't see that coming. Wonder if DeSmith will start over Murray tomorrow. Think he should. Ride the hot hand.
 

Gurglesons

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Dec 18, 2009
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It was an advantage. Sure. Especially versus Nashville who had a bunch of 3Cs with Johansen out.

SJ had Thornton, Pavelski and Couture against us at center in the 16 Final. We still dominated them. And it’s not because Crosby, Malkin and Bonino as a group are ridiculously better. It’s because we were light years faster as a group and overwhelmed them on the breakout and backcheck. That was our advantage.

Malkin Crosby Bonino Cullen was way better than whatever the Sharks had at center.
 
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Brandinho

deng xiaoping gang
Aug 28, 2005
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Jarry reassigned to WBS! Wow! Didn't see that coming. Wonder if DeSmith will start over Murray tomorrow. Think he should. Ride the hot hand.

It makes sense. DeSmith is playing extremely well and Murray is back. Jarry needs reps and those aren't available for the foreseeable future in the NHL.
 

Brandinho

deng xiaoping gang
Aug 28, 2005
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It was an advantage. Sure. Especially versus Nashville who had a bunch of 3Cs with Johansen out.

SJ had Thornton, Pavelski and Couture against us at center in the 16 Final. We still dominated them. And it’s not because Crosby, Malkin and Bonino as a group are ridiculously better. It’s because we were light years faster as a group and overwhelmed them on the breakout and backcheck. That was our advantage.

Crosby, Malkin and Bonino are ridiculously better than that group.
 

CertifiedLurker

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Aug 13, 2016
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If Kessel HAS to play on the third line with lesser centers, I want them to go get Charlie Coyle. Someone who can work the boards well and get Kessel the puck would be a much better fit.
 

Brandinho

deng xiaoping gang
Aug 28, 2005
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If Kessel HAS to play on the third line with lesser centers, I want them to go get Charlie Coyle. Someone who can work the boards well and get Kessel the puck would be a much better fit.

What do you propose we trade for him? Coyle's an excellent player with two years left on a team-friendly contract. He won't come cheap.
 

Riptide

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Dec 29, 2011
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It makes sense. DeSmith is playing extremely well and Murray is back. Jarry needs reps and those aren't available for the foreseeable future in the NHL.

Agreed. Jarry needs to start more than 1 game a week - if only for his development. DeSmith does as well... however of the two, Jarry is the guy who's likely the higher potential level, and as such, we need to focus on ensuring he can reach the highest level possible.

Had to happen if we're riding DeSmith and MM is back.

If we're winning... who cares? I want MM to get going... but I want to make the POs even worse. And I'm fairly certain that eventually, Murray will get his grove back.
 
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