Salary Cap: Salary Cap + Roster Building | Longest Off-Season Evahhh (Cap Details + Links in First Post)

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PensPlz

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Dec 23, 2009
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Why shouldn't gender matter when men are considerably larger and stronger than women?

Gender equality is about equal opportunity, not pretending that men and women are physically equal in every way.

You wouldn't last 2 seconds on Reddit :P

I agree that's the case but that's not the argument anymore. Biology doesn't matter. Gender is a social construct now.

I didn't know it was a woman when I made the first post.
 

Dipsy Doodle

Rent A Barn
May 28, 2006
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No, didn't know that.

But ya know... equality and all. Gender shouldn't matter :P

giphy.gif
 
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Brandinho

deng xiaoping gang
Aug 28, 2005
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For me anyway, this is the distinction: Kane was taken to task multiple times and continued to do it anyway. DeSmith crossed the line once, tried to make amends, and has apparently been a model citizen since.

I don't know where Voynov's at. FWIW, he and his wife are still together...though I know with domestic abuse that doesn't necessarily mean everything's hunky-dory. But I'll keep an open mind if he were to follow DeSmith's path.

Kane definitely has a pattern of behavior that suggests he doesn't have an ounce of remorse, no argument from me there. That arguably makes him worse, but I don't think that feeling remorse absolves DeSmith. There's no excuse to do what he did. Does he have the right to pursue his goals and live his life? Yes, of course, but I don't think I'm out of line at all for not wanting him on a team that I support.

Specifically regarding Voynov, the way that he tried to weasel out of the situation really underlines that he didn't accept responsibility for what he did. He tried to argue that his wife didn't speak English and couldn't understand the police questions, even though her injuries were perfectly consistent with the story that she told. Then he pleaded no contest, which further reinforces that he didn't care. The man is a coward, he's scum and it's absolutely unconscionable to me that he could be reinstated.
 
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Brandinho

deng xiaoping gang
Aug 28, 2005
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You wouldn't last 2 seconds on Reddit :P

I agree that's the case but that's not the argument anymore. Biology doesn't matter. Gender is a social construct now.

I didn't know it was a woman when I made the first post.

Gender isn't entirely a social construct, but this isn't really the place to have that argument.

Fair enough that you didn't know, I can't really criticize you for that because I wasn't aware of the full extent of what DeSmith did either. Now we both know.

Also I consider it a compliment that I "wouldn't last 2 seconds on reddit". Thank you for those kind words.
 

PensPlz

Registered User
Dec 23, 2009
11,252
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Pittsburgh
Gender isn't entirely a social construct, but this isn't really the place to have that argument.

Fair enough that you didn't know, I can't really criticize you for that because I wasn't aware of the full extent of what DeSmith did either. Now we both know.

Also I consider it a compliment that I "wouldn't last 2 seconds on reddit". Thank you for those kind words.
I'm with ya. But times are changing, unfortunately.

Cheers.
 

Dipsy Doodle

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May 28, 2006
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Kane definitely has a pattern of behavior that suggests he doesn't have an ounce of remorse, no argument from me there. That arguably makes him worse, but I don't think that feeling remorse absolves DeSmith. There's no excuse to do what he did. Does he have the right to pursue his goals and live his life? Yes, of course, but I don't think I'm out of line at all for not wanting him on a team that I support.

Specifically regarding Voynov, the way that he tried to weasel out of the situation really underlines that he didn't accept responsibility for what he did. He tried to argue that his wife didn't speak English and couldn't understand the police questions, even though her injuries were perfectly consistent with the story that she told. Then he pleaded no contest, which further reinforces that he didn't care. The man is a coward, he's scum and it's absolutely unconscionable to me that he could be reinstated.

There's definitely no defending his actions and I totally understand not wanting to cheer for a person who did something like that. I'm not sure how an NA player would react if he had a similar option to return home rather than face jailtime until things cooled down, but it's not a good look for Voynov regardless.
 

Brandinho

deng xiaoping gang
Aug 28, 2005
14,804
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There's definitely no defending his actions and I totally understand not wanting to cheer for a person who did something like that. I'm not sure how an NA player would react if he had a similar option to return home rather than face jailtime until things cooled down, but it's not a good look for Voynov regardless.

That's a fair point. It's just an issue that I'm particularly sensitive to as I was raised by a single mother who sacrificed everything so that I could succeed. Nobody should be assaulted like that, but it makes my stomach turn even more when it's a woman.
 

Dipsy Doodle

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May 28, 2006
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That's a fair point. It's just an issue that I'm particularly sensitive to as I was raised by a single mother who sacrificed everything so that I could succeed. Nobody should be assaulted like that, but it makes my stomach turn even more when it's a woman.

I hear ya man. Not to get too far into a soul-baring convo here, but I was raised similarly and my mom was abused by her first husband who was a drunk...and a 4th degree black belt in judo. Had I been alive I'd have probably done something that I'd end up in jail for, but after they split up he found religion and became a good person, if still overbearing in an entirely different way haha.
 
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Ryder71

Registered User
Nov 24, 2017
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No, didn't know that.

But ya know... equality and all. Gender shouldn't matter :P
I'm not privy to all the details, but operating under the premise that he indeed was guilty of the charges, it's a shameful display regardless. I don't think making light of it is the way to go. Yes women want equality, but that doesn't mean they should be expected to hold their own against a male in a physical altercation.
 

Ryder71

Registered User
Nov 24, 2017
22,831
11,036
Completely on a different topic I gotta say how happy I am with our quality and depth at center. SOOOOOOOOOO Much better than what we went into last season with.

I just hope JJ assimilates and the coaching staff maximizes his raw talent. Hopefully Letang returns to playing to his 2016 level. With Murray rebounding and having more time after the death of his father. Lots of questions, but lots to look forward to.
 

PensPlz

Registered User
Dec 23, 2009
11,252
5,544
Pittsburgh
I'm not privy to all the details, but operating under the premise that he indeed was guilty of the charges, it's a shameful display regardless. I don't think making light of it is the way to go. Yes women want equality, but that doesn't mean they should be expected to hold their own against a male in a physical altercation.
It was a tounge in cheek comment.

I don't know the details, but I do have a lot of other serious opinions on the matter. I agree though that's it not the place for a gender debate.

But I would love to see morality clauses in contracts regarding targeted violence towards women/racial groups as a way for a team to easily walk away from a player.
 

66-30-33

Registered User
Jan 24, 2006
62,616
15,643
Victoria, BC
I'd give Voynov a 2nd chance, everyone deserves one unless you're some type of mass murderer or something. I wont hold no ill will unless they force my hand. I don't follow the Voynov stuff, just that he beat his wife before. Maybe he's a changed man?
 

Gurglesons

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Dec 18, 2009
91,486
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San Diego, CA
last-train-tocool.blogspot.com
I'd give Voynov a 2nd chance, everyone deserves one unless you're some type of mass murderer or something. I wont hold no ill will unless they force my hand. I don't follow the Voynov stuff, just that he beat his wife before. Maybe he's a changed man?

I don’t know if the argument is that he doesn’t deserve a second chance, I think the argument is that people who assaulted their wife to the degree Voynov did don’t deserve to be in the NHL.
 

JackFr

Registered User
Jun 18, 2010
4,825
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Voynov does not deserve a second chance, and does not belong in the NHL.

The second he signs a contract with the Penguins is the second I stop supporting them. End of story.

He did not show remorse, nor did he apparently have to. He tried to weasel his way out of trouble, the Kings tried to sneak him back into practices, he ran off to Russia and made a couple more millions, and won an Olympic gold medal. Real deep consequences for his actions clearly.
 

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Registered User
Sep 5, 2008
28,726
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f*** Voynov, and f*** you if you're open to his return. Ain't no way to sugarcoat it. He's a piece of shit through and through. Save the second chance bullshit for people who deserve it.

Dude almost beat his wife to death multiple times. Got off essentially without punishment (low security clubhouse prison, chose his time/place) because he's rich, went back to Russia where nobody gives a shit about domestic abuse and continued on his way without a care. Made millions in the mother land, won a gold medal in a miserably misrepresented Olympic games, and continues to laugh about nearly killing his wife to this day.
 

Dipsy Doodle

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I don’t know if the argument is that he doesn’t deserve a second chance, I think the argument is that people who assaulted their wife to the degree Voynov did don’t deserve to be in the NHL.

To "that degree" is pretty vague though. DeSmith was fortunate that while he was throwing that woman to the ground, and punching her, and jumping/spitting on her that he didn't happen to draw blood, I guess?

Unless I'm missing the distinction here, which is entirely possible. It seems to me that DeSmith's intent and act were about the same as Voynov's.
 
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Gurglesons

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Dec 18, 2009
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To "that degree" is pretty vague though. DeSmith was fortunate that while he was throwing that woman to the ground, and punching her, and jumping/spitting on her that he didn't happen to draw blood, I guess?

Unless I'm missing the distinction here, which is entirely possible. It seems to me that DeSmith's intent and act were about the same as Voynov's.

Desmith shouldn’t be on the team as well.
 
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JackFr

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Jun 18, 2010
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Yeah Desmith is also a piece of shit. Wish he wasn't on our team.
 

Dipsy Doodle

Rent A Barn
May 28, 2006
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Desmith shouldn’t be on the team as well.

I definitely understand not wanting to cheer for someone who's done that. It was deplorable. But DeSmith worked to make amends and seems to have been on the straight and narrow ever since the incident. That doesn't excuse what he did at all, but I think it shows the value of forgiveness and second chances if the perp is legitimately repentant.

I'm not sure what good it would do to ostracize DeSmith at this point - I think the prison reform idea of being rehabilitative rather than punitive is a good analogy. People make mistakes, terrible ones sometimes, but people can change too. If Voynov wanted to put in the work to change, I'd give him the opportunity.
 

Honour Over Glory

Fire Sully
Jan 30, 2012
77,316
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I'm not sure a subordinate would be the person to reign him in. I think it needs to come from higher up. Although JR or even Mario aren't guys who meddle like that. Billy G could I think, someone of that Ilk.
Tocchet was the buffer. A lot of players alluded to it including Sullivan.
 

Gurglesons

Registered User
Dec 18, 2009
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San Diego, CA
last-train-tocool.blogspot.com
I definitely understand not wanting to cheer for someone who's done that. It was deplorable. But DeSmith worked to make amends and seems to have been on the straight and narrow ever since the incident. That doesn't excuse what he did at all, but I think it shows the value of forgiveness and second chances if the perp is legitimately repentant.

I'm not sure what good it would do to ostracize DeSmith at this point - I think the prison reform idea of being rehabilitative rather than punitive is a good analogy. People make mistakes, terrible ones sometimes, but people can change too. If Voynov wanted to put in the work to change, I'd give him the opportunity.

My kid doesn’t need to cheer for someone like Desmith or Voynov.

They can be fine members of society. No reason they need to be public figures.
 
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Turin

Registered User
Feb 27, 2018
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My kid doesn’t need to cheer for someone like Desmith or Voynov.

They can be fine members of society. No reason they need to be public figures.

Looking to a bunch of rich kids who lug a rubber disc up ice for moral guidance is a silly practice whether they beat their wives or not.
 
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