Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building | Forget the whale ... We'll buy the place with beads

[JackFr]

Hagelin+1st for Backlund

Fair deal?

No, Backlund is one of the best shut down centres in the league, and they don't need picks or a non-scoring LW....

Also why would Carolina, who are trying to compete, trade us their best centre for a winger prospect and a pick? At money retained?? Within the division???

 

[Freedom]

The trade Kessel talk to somehow "extend" the cup chances is actually one of the least sense making things I've ever read. The team is better with him than without him, if the goal is to win the cup and not just make the playoffs, you keep him until that window of truly being a contender and not just a playoff team shuts or his wheels fall off. Gotta pay the price if you want to win it all. I don't have an interest in playing it safe with the future when its so damn hard to win it all and the pieces to keep winning are still available to this team right now.

Totaly agreed

 

[Gurglesons]

No, Backlund is one of the best shut down centres in the league, and they don't need picks or a non-scoring LW....

Also why would Carolina, who are trying to compete, trade us their best centre for a winger prospect and a pick? At money retained?? Within the division???

Because, we are back to back champions.

Go outside, quit complaining.

 

[Riptide]

Hagelin+1st for Backlund

Fair deal?

Not even remotely close. Hagelin's value, is extremely questionable at best, with another year at 4m on the books. That might get it done at the TD if Calgary is selling... but even then they'd have to actually want Hagelin.

 

[Shady Machine]

And my argument to that is two fold:

1. It's in the past and there is nothing we can do about so it doesn't need to be stated over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over AND OVER again.

2. You have no evidence to suggest he didn't try to address the center position in the summer. You have no evidence to suggest that the prices then are/were cheaper than now. You have no idea the actual availability, both then and now, of the guys you want.

To reiterate using the common example: you have no evidence that JR did not to GMGM about Karlsson. You have no evidence that Karlsson was even available in the first place. You have no evidence that the cost to acquire Karlsson now is more expensive than what it would have been in the summer.

The argument is "I don't see a completed trade therefore JR did nothing and I am mad at him for doing nothing" and it's a poor argument based on absolutely nothing.

Dude. You just posted the most asinine trade proposal I've seen in a while and you're calling me out for suggesting JR should trade for Karlsson? Give me a break.

Anyway, forget last summer if it makes you happy. I want JR to trade for Karlsson tomorrow. What do you think it will take?

Feel free to ignore that though and suggest we trade Letang and Kessel. Seems
a tad more realistic.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Hagelin+1st for Backlund

Fair deal?

For the Pens, for sure. But why in the hell does Calgary do that?

 

[SEALBound]

Dude. You just posted the most asinine trade proposal I've seen in a while and you're calling me out for suggesting JR should trade for Karlsson? Give me a break. Read moar good.

Anyway, forget last summer if it makes you happy. I want JR to trade for Karlsson tomorrow. What do you think it will take? I don't think he's available. If I had to guess, Sprong and a 1st would get it done. With that, with VGK's current performance, and his current play, I don't think there is a trade to be made value wise that makes sense for us.

Feel free to ignore that though and suggest we trade Letang and Kessel. Seems
a tad more realistic. Technically, it has a better chance of happening than a trade last July that didn't happen. But let's let three 1000+ post threads determine that, shall we?

 

[Gurglesons]

When do we get to talk about Pouliot's play so far in Vancouver?

Never will get how they treated Pooh here.

Curious to see what the Nucks do once their roster is healthy.

 

[Gurglesons]

words

I'm sure you were plenty happy to criticize Shady, Pens X and I all summer when we said our bottom six depth would be a huge down step and would be insanely difficult to replace without major pieces moving out.

Now you want to trade half of our assets and players to make up for our lack of depth.

Hm.

 

[Riptide]

Has it dawned on you that there might be a price to be paid for our two stars doing what they did last year to carry things when half the team was on cruise control?

I do not think half our team was on cruise control last year. This year? Sure. But last year? No. There's a reason why we were the highest scoring team in the league - and it wasn't just Crosby. Sheary played a prominent role, and excelled. Guentzel when he earned his spot, played a prominent role and excelled. And Kessel had a very solid season. Crosby's production was only slightly above what he's put up the past few seasons.

So you bash Sid but blindly defend Rutherford and these bottom six idiots? Sid is trash, but Riley Sheahan needs more time! You keep preaching patience but have no issues trashing our star players? You routinely defend Rutherford for everything. You refuse to acknowledge that the bottom six needs to be redone.

No, I'm simply pointing out a huge reason why our team isn't scoring. You're trying to blame the entire bottom 6 and focusing on depth players like Sheahan. I'm just pointing out that the problem is actually a much simpler one - just one few want to acknowledge. But don't worry - I actually am very patient. Unlike some, I'm not immediately looking to replace the struggling player, and am more than willing to let him work through whatever it is that he needs to do. Too bad you can't say the same.

I also wasn't aware that pointing out that Crosby is on pace for less ES points then he had ES goals last season was "trashing our star players". Clearly reading comprehension isn't your strong suit.

I usually agree with you Rip, but you are out to lunch.

Malkin is above a PPG. Kessel is in the top ten. This team should be able to succeed with Crosby putting up typical 2C points.

I'm out to lunch that a huge part of our teams issues at scoring at ES starts with our top 6?
Crosby has 7 ES points. That's a 30 ES point pace. Last year he was 4th in the league with 64 ES points.
Malkin has 11 ES points - a 47.5 ES point pace. Only "slightly" off the 63.5 ES pt pace he had last year.
Kessel has 22 pts in 19 games - which is fantastic. Unfortunately, a full 50% of them at on the PP. Which is great when the PP is one of the best in the league... but when the team isn't scoring at ES, you're not going to win a ton of hockey games.

This isn't about Crosby JUST being on pace for 56 points, it's where those points are coming from, because right now, almost half are on the PP (6 vs 7) - and that doesn't just go for him. I'm fine with people pointing out that our team is struggling, and suggesting changes (even when I do not agree with them), but saying "well if we replaced the entire bottom 6, we'd have 7-10 more goals and have likely won a few more games" is complete and utter BS. Sure it's true... but when the entire top 6 also isn't scoring at ES... why are we blaming our woos on depth players?

A team will be hard pressed to win a championship without quality depth - we all know that first hand. But what every single one of us on here also knows, is that without their star players playing at an acceptable level, they'll never even get the chance to contend for one. And right now, our biggest issue is that our top 6 just isn't getting it done. I pointed out Crosby and Malkin's numbers, because they're paid the big bucks and it got my point across quite well. But lets go a lot further then just those two.

Crosby: .368 ES pt/g vs .853 ES pt/g
Malkin: .578 ES pt/g vs .79 ES pt/g
Kessel: .578 ES pt/g vs .487 ES pt/g
Guentzel: .315 ES pt/g vs .75 ES pt/g
Sheary: .315 ES pt/g vs .786 ES pt/g
Hornqvist: .157 ES pt/g vs .385 ES pt/g

Basically the only player who's ES production hasn't cratered compared to last year ES production is Kessel. And while you can give some leeway to Sheary and Guentzel due to their age, Crosby, Malkin and Hornqvist all need to be better. They're far from the only ones, but there's a reason why they're paid the big bucks... and it's not so that at almost 1/4 into the season Crosby can put up the same ES production as Rust.

So yes, if select people are going to try and blame this teams woos on having Sheahan as our #3C, I'm going to toss it right back in their faces, with the cold hard truth - and that's that our current issues start a LOT higher up in the lineup then our #3C.

 

[Riptide]

The alternative is that instead of freaking out about shit, people can just cool their jets and give the team some time to work things through. Unfortunately, that seems too much to ask for.

 

[SEALBound]

I'm sure you were plenty happy to criticize Shady, Pens X and I all summer when we said our bottom six depth would be a huge down step and would be insanely difficult to replace without major pieces moving out.

Now you want to trade half of our assets and players to make up for our lack of depth.

Hm.

There's a difference. I don't sit around whining about JR not resigning Bonino when Bonino chose Nashville. Waaaaa! Boninoooooo!!! Should have sign Bonino! Or Grrrrr!!! I'm made that JR didn't trade for Karlsson 5 months ago! He didn't make the trade so he didn't try!

Big difference. If you can't see how it is different and why I mock you and other that are doing it, then those are personal demons you will have to battle.

 

[Gurglesons]

There's a difference. I don't sit around whining about JR not resigning Bonino when Bonino chose Nashville. Waaaaa! Boninoooooo!!! Should have sign Bonino! Or Grrrrr!!! I'm made that JR didn't trade for Karlsson 5 months ago! He didn't make the trade so he didn't try!

Big difference. If you can't see how it is different and why I mock you and other that are doing it, then those are personal demons you will have to battle.

I don't think anyone you are talking to has ever "whined" or "cried" about Bonino leaving.

Our issue this entire time was the time to resolve this was in the summer, not in the season because we would likely have a bad record and be forced into a trade rather than forcing one.

 

[Riptide]

The Penguins shouldn't commit to depth players for more than a year or two when they have the young players to step in and replace them.

If the Penguins plan on waiving Kuhnhackl and Rowney later in the year and replacing them with Blueger and DiPauli, it's not an issue then. I just don't think that's all that that likely.

I'll wait while you tell us which depth player the Penguins have committed to for longer than 2 years.

Why would they even consider this? Blueger and DiPauli haven't even played an NHL game yet. Of course they're not going to be gifted spots by waiving established players.

It's funny... some of us seem to have forgotten how Sheary, Rust, Kuhnhackl, Guentzel, Murray and Dumoulin all got their chances over the last 2 years. Every single one of those guys got their shot due to injuries and them excelling in WBS. And while I'm not saying they've been bad - they haven't been. But it's not like either has been so good that we just have to call them up. Nor have there been any injuries up front to make room for them.

 

[Gurglesons]

I do not think half our team was on cruise control last year. This year? Sure. But last year? No. There's a reason why we were the highest scoring team in the league - and it wasn't just Crosby. Sheary played a prominent role, and excelled. Guentzel when he earned his spot, played a prominent role and excelled. And Kessel had a very solid season. Crosby's production was only slightly above what he's put up the past few seasons.


No, I'm simply pointing out a huge reason why our team isn't scoring. You're trying to blame the entire bottom 6 and focusing on depth players like Sheahan. I'm just pointing out that the problem is actually a much simpler one - just one few want to acknowledge. But don't worry - I actually am very patient. Unlike some, I'm not immediately looking to replace the struggling player, and am more than willing to let him work through whatever it is that he needs to do. Too bad you can't say the same.

I also wasn't aware that pointing out that Crosby is on pace for less ES points then he had ES goals last season was "trashing our star players". Clearly reading comprehension isn't your strong suit.



I'm out to lunch that a huge part of our teams issues at scoring at ES starts with our top 6?
Crosby has 7 ES points. That's a 30 ES point pace. Last year he was 4th in the league with 64 ES points.
Malkin has 11 ES points - a 47.5 ES point pace. Only "slightly" off the 63.5 ES pt pace he had last year.
Kessel has 22 pts in 19 games - which is fantastic. Unfortunately, a full 50% of them at on the PP. Which is great when the PP is one of the best in the league... but when the team isn't scoring at ES, you're not going to win a ton of hockey games.

This isn't about Crosby JUST being on pace for 56 points, it's where those points are coming from, because right now, almost half are on the PP (6 vs 7) - and that doesn't just go for him. I'm fine with people pointing out that our team is struggling, and suggesting changes (even when I do not agree with them), but saying "well if we replaced the entire bottom 6, we'd have 7-10 more goals and have likely won a few more games" is complete and utter BS. Sure it's true... but when the entire top 6 also isn't scoring at ES... why are we blaming our woos on depth players?

A team will be hard pressed to win a championship without quality depth - we all know that first hand. But what every single one of us on here also knows, is that without their star players playing at an acceptable level, they'll never even get the chance to contend for one. And right now, our biggest issue is that our top 6 just isn't getting it done. I pointed out Crosby and Malkin's numbers, because they're paid the big bucks and it got my point across quite well. But lets go a lot further then just those two.

Crosby: .368 ES pt/g vs .853 ES pt/g
Malkin: .578 ES pt/g vs .79 ES pt/g
Kessel: .578 ES pt/g vs .487 ES pt/g
Guentzel: .315 ES pt/g vs .75 ES pt/g
Sheary: .315 ES pt/g vs .786 ES pt/g
Hornqvist: .157 ES pt/g vs .385 ES pt/g

Basically the only player who's ES production hasn't cratered compared to last year ES production is Kessel. And while you can give some leeway to Sheary and Guentzel due to their age, Crosby, Malkin and Hornqvist all need to be better. They're far from the only ones, but there's a reason why they're paid the big bucks... and it's not so that at almost 1/4 into the season Crosby can put up the same ES production as Rust.

So yes, if select people are going to try and blame this teams woos on having Sheahan as our #3C, I'm going to toss it right back in their faces, with the cold hard truth - and that's that our current issues start a LOT higher up in the lineup then our #3C.

Going into tonight McKegg and Sheahan were on pace for 11 points combined.

Our bottom six is producing at a .201 ppg pace, they were producing at a .383 pace last year at this point in the season.

In 15-16 they produced at a .344 ppg pace.

It is a huge issue.

Even if you want to blame Crosby and Malkin. Which is funny, because this is actually the best statistical performance by our top six in the last three years through 19 games.

15-16 .454
16-17 .672
17-18 .756

 

[SEALBound]

I don't think anyone you are talking to has ever "whined" or "cried" about Bonino leaving.

Our issue this entire time was the time to resolve this was in the summer, not in the season because we would likely have a bad record and be forced into a trade rather than forcing one.

This is the biggest crock in this thread. And the bar has been set incredibly high.

I have nothing more to say to you if that is your view. Best of luck in your future endevors.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

It would've been nice to fix things in the summer, but maybe the trades just weren't there. We have no idea.

The only thing that matters is this team has very real issues that are not going away, and are not a result of a Cup hangover. Systematic and personnel issues that need to be sorted out before playoff time if we want a chance to make another run at the Cup. Assuming we make the playoffs.

 

[Gurglesons]

This is the biggest crock in this thread. And the bar has been set incredibly high.

I have nothing more to say to you if that is your view. Best of luck in your future endevors.

I think you could easily find both Shady and I agree with posters that letting Bonino go was the right move.

My main issue was people trying to detract from Bonino's effectiveness here and thinking he would be easily replaced. More than one poster said we would get Haula for Wilson and a 3rd.

 

[T1K]

So I guess I'm underrating Backlund's value a lot then, got it. I'd add more to that, I think he's a really good player.

 

[Gurglesons]

So I guess I'm underrating Backlund's value a lot then, got it. I'd add more to that, I think he's a really good player.

The issue with a player like Backlund is we can't really win if another team decides to out deal us for a rental. (Or at least we hope Rutherford wouldn't do that, not positive if I'm sure of that if the team is in 8th around January)

Like I could see a team like the Wild, Columbus, Anaheim, Ottawa, etc. all moving major pieces for a player like Backlund that they could look to resign after the season.

 

[Riptide]

The trade Kessel talk to somehow "extend" the cup chances is actually one of the least sense making things I've ever read. The team is better with him than without him, if the goal is to win the cup and not just make the playoffs, you keep him until that window of truly being a contender and not just a playoff team shuts or his wheels fall off. Gotta pay the price if you want to win it all. I don't have an interest in playing it safe with the future when its so damn hard to win it all and the pieces to keep winning are still available to this team right now.

Disagree. There will be a time in the semi near future (2/4 years) where you start asking yourself if he's worth 6.8m on this team, or whether we can replace much of what he brings at a cheaper cost. Right now and up until June 2019, it's super easy - you keep him.

But in July 2019, Guentzel gets his raise. Rust will have his, and we will have made a decision on Hornqvist and Hagelin likely walks (if he was still here). Not the end of the world to find a way to fit in Kessel's 6.8m (in fact it's fairly easy). However the following summer (June 2020) you have to deal with Sheary, Schultz and Murray. And that's in addition to finding a Cole and Hunwick replacements, and the other raises that will get handed out (Sprong will be in there as well). At some point over that span you're going to be asking yourself... What's the best way to spend 6.8m. Is it on a 32/33 yr old Kessel?

I said when we acquired him that I didn't think he'd finish out his contract here. I still do not think that changes. But trading him would be more cap/internal development related then "trying to extend our window". Because as long as things are working, and we can manage his cap hit, it's a no brainer to keep him. Where it gets murky is when one (or both) of those get pushed/squeezed. But as long as we understand he will not fetch a "haul" (yay NTC), and why we might consider moving him, then it's all good.

 

[Riptide]

When do we get to talk about Pouliot's play so far in Vancouver?

Never will get how they treated Pooh here.

Curious to see what the Nucks do once their roster is healthy.

How has it been? The only game I've seen was ours there, and nothing I saw that game stood out as "must keep".

 

[Gurglesons]

How has it been? The only game I've seen was ours there, and nothing I saw that game stood out as "must keep".

He's statistically trending back to where he was in 15-16 when we brought in Schultz.

He also has had the advantage of playing with Edler the past couple games.

I'll be interested to see how they use him once their D-core is healthy.

 

[Riptide]

Even if you want to blame Crosby and Malkin. Which is funny, because this is actually the best statistical performance by our top six in the last three years through 19 games.

15-16 .454
16-17 .672
17-18 .756

I'm not even sure what you're looking at. But it's certainly not ES points or team winning %. The team is failing to score at ES, so I'm not sure why you'd look at their PP points.

15/16: 38 ES points in 19 games.
16/17: 52 ES points in 19 games.
17/18: 44 ES points in 19 games.

This is the production of the top 6 at ES in their respective year. Basically 50% better then the team that saw their coach get fired half way through the year.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'll wait while you tell us which depth player the Penguins have committed to for longer than 2 years.

Why would they even consider this? Blueger and DiPauli haven't even played an NHL game yet. Of course they're not going to be gifted spots by waiving established players.

It's funny... some of us seem to have forgotten how Sheary, Rust, Kuhnhackl, Guentzel, Murray and Dumoulin all got their chances over the last 2 years. Every single one of those guys got their shot due to injuries and them excelling in WBS. And while I'm not saying they've been bad - they haven't been. But it's not like either has been so good that we just have to call them up. Nor have there been any injuries up front to make room for them.

Kuhnhackl and Hagelin? Why are you ignoring those guys? They're in their 3rd seasons as Penguins.

Why would the Penguins consider doing that? Well, Kuhnhackl sucks and Rowney's only saving grace to keep him on the roster is being a center. And waiving those players doesn't technically mean losing them. I'd waive Rowney and call up Blueger to see what he could do extremely easily. I'm a little more hesitant with Kuhnhackl because I think there's a chance he'd get claimed, but I seriously have a tough time imagining that DiPauli wouldn't be able to provide what Kuhnhackl provides.