Salary Cap: Salary Cap + Roster Building | Cap Details + Links in First Post | We can't pay the D this much...

[ChaosAgent]

This organization will go down with the ship if Malkin has started to regress. He isn't being traded and will retire a Pen.

Kessel is a complementary piece that can be moved out anytime we deem fit. He's a very productive player, but as was mentioned ad nauseum, Guentzel or two D can replace Kessel on the PP. Our PP has been good for a decade. It will continue being good without Phil. HIs ES numbers can be replaced by signing one of the 2nd line caliber players in free agency.

His iron man streak is impressive and on a team where we struggle to stay healthy, that's a nice thing to have. But it's not a big enough reason to keep said player.

We're not Cup favorites as constructed. We likely won't be next year with or without Phil. I'd look to get a bit younger and try and prolong our window while still staying competitive in the interim.

I'll be very curious about the end of Geno's contract. Will he want a raise, and should we give it to him? He will almost certainly be in decline in 3 years. I also did believe he'd want to play in Magnitogorsk again although now after all the quotes from his parents/wife recently I'm not as sure.

Geno playing out his career on a 3/$21M on Sid's wing, while a Duchene-type mans 2C for us...could be a lot worse.

 

[mpp9]

One additional thing about Jake is he was why Schultz was initially drafted by Anaheim.

Might be one reason we could get him, but it likely means we have to move out Maatta and JJ which is just unrealistic imo.

I would love him here. He’s a fantastic d man that is a scalegoat in Toronto and him and Schultz would be a seriously legit 2nd pair behind Dumo - Letang.

N

Krug or Gardiner would be money.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

The precise reason you move Phil this summer is because he's an aging star making a heap of money on a team with two irreplaceable, aging, generational talents making heaps of money. We need to get younger and the younger guys need to be quality players, capable of easing the workload for Sid and Geno as they decline. It's far less about Phil's struggles, though they're not helping him stick around.

You move Phil for the best return you can get this summer. Hopefully someone is desperate for scoring after just missing out on making the Finals or something like that. Either way, you trade Phil and land someone like Skinner or Zucker, and we're in a fantastic spot at forward for years to come.

 

[Riptide]

We're not Cup favorites as constructed.

When was the last time that the "cup favorites" pre playoffs won the cup? Most of the winner's have not been the favorites before the POs started. It's obviously happened (Chicago for example), but frequently the team everyone touted as the favorites didn't win in the end.

 

[mpp9]

When was the last time that the "cup favorites" pre playoffs won the cup? Most of the winner's have not been the favorites before the POs started. It's obviously happened (Chicago for example), but frequently the team everyone touted as the favorites didn't win in the end.

This is not a team that one should expect to win a Cup. 87, 71, 58 and 30 can do some crazy things so it's not out of the question, but I think a bit of a reset button on constructing the team up front is in order. A signing like Gardiner or Krug in free agency to upgrade the transition game. Drafting a player who can step in here in 2-3 years and finding a winger to help Malkin navigate his mid thirties and become a more consistent two way player.

I'm cool moving Phil to do those things.

 

[Riptide]

This is not a team that one should expect to win a Cup. 87, 71, 58 and 30 can do some crazy things so it's not out of the question, but I think a bit of a reset button on constructing the team up front is in order. A signing like Gardiner or Krug in free agency to upgrade the transition game. Drafting a player who can step in here in 2-3 years and finding a winger to help Malkin navigate his mid thirties and become a more consistent two way player.

I'm cool moving Phil to do those things.

And you still didn't answer my question. When was the last time a "cup favorite" won the cup?

Because as you said, 87, 71, 59, 58 and 30 can do some crazy things - and that's not even counting 81. We have a lot of elite talent (more than most), and we have a lot of quality depth. I get that we're not the "favorites" to win this spring, but don't mistake that with thinking we don't have a chance - we do, and Kessel is part of the reason as to why we do.

 

[Nakawick]

MAJOR assumption believing that specific FA player wants to play for you and at whatever value ($$ and term) you have budgeted for him

So you trade Phil and have all this extra cap space but no talented player slotted to replace his production.
The front office would be eviscerated (and rightfully so) for such a maneuver.

Free agency is July 1st. You don’t have to trade Kessel before then.

 

[Nakawick]

We would have to move a lot more then just Kessel to accomplish this. Right now just moving Maatta should solve our cap issues for the season. If we want to sign someone who makes more than Kessel, we would have to find a way to A) trade Kessel without bringing back additional assets and B) move someone else to accommodate the raise that someone like Skinner would get. And we'd need to get a replacement for the player we just traded.

So while I think it's possible that we could see Kessel moved, I think that anyone who's dreaming of bringing in another high end skilled winger via FA is living in a fantasy land. At best we get one of the 2nd tiered guys (Eberle, Nyqvist, Hayes, Mojo, Dzingel, Donskoi, Ferland, etc). And all of those guys are going to cost something in the 4-6m range.

Fantasy Land?

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

Free agency is July 1st. You don’t have to trade Kessel before then.

So what's the other option: land this specific FA and then Kessel is on your books?
Then you have teams KNOWING you have to chop $X in salary or else you're not cap compliant and they'll give you pennies on the dollar for your asset they know is expiring the closer you get to opening day.

Complicating the matter is there are only 8 (EIGHT!) teams Kessel will accept a trade to, further limiting your options.

Bottom line: it's almost impossible to trade Kessel due to:

1) His contract
2) The amount of money he makes (because teams will want to give salary back)

 

[Nakawick]

So what's the other option: land this specific FA and then Kessel is on your books?
Then you have teams KNOWING you have to chop $X in salary or else you're not cap compliant and they'll give you pennies on the dollar for your asset they know is expiring the closer you get to opening day.

Complicating the matter is there are only 8 (EIGHT!) teams Kessel will accept a trade to, further limiting your options.

Bottom line: it's almost impossible to trade Kessel due to:

1) His contract
2) The amount of money he makes (because teams will want to give salary back)

The first step is finding a trading partner for Kessel.
The second step is gauging what the return for Kessel will be.
The third step is talking to agents during the window where other teams can talk to players, I think that is the week before July 1st.
The fourth step is executing the plan if you have the pieces lined up.

If there is no free agent, or not a sexy free agent, move Kessel and look for a trade using the assets from the Kessel trade and our own assets.

Or just look for a hockey trade(s). I would certainly be content with replacing Kessel and Cullen for Zucker and Haula for example. That would be 2 trades, but you know JR is not afraid to trade and he has a green light and probably working with a three year window until Geno and Letang’s contracts are up.

 

[mpp9]

And you still didn't answer my question. When was the last time a "cup favorite" won the cup?

Because as you said, 87, 71, 59, 58 and 30 can do some crazy things - and that's not even counting 81. We have a lot of elite talent (more than most), and we have a lot of quality depth. I get that we're not the "favorites" to win this spring, but don't mistake that with thinking we don't have a chance - we do, and Kessel is part of the reason as to why we do.

Outside of the LA Kings, a top 5 regular season team in its conference wins the Cup pretty much every year the past decade. Caps were that last year. Pens were that the year before. The Hawks were that in their Cup years.

When I say favorite, I'm not talking a single team out of the many. I'll rephrase my previous statement. One of the favorites. Ok?

We're struggling this year just to stay in the Metro bracket. And the two primary reasons for that are a pretty shit 2nd line most of this year and lack of legit top 4 puck moving D-men ALL year. We miss Schultz and we struggle to start the year. No Letang? And we have like no one to throw out there in 3 on 3 after Schultz. It's March and Kessel is still flubbing routine passing plays and going weeks at a time multiple times without scoring.

I'd address those things moving forward to give us a better chance at contending on a year to year basis. We're gambling that Phil wakes up this year. And that JJ doesn't revert back to poop like earlier in the season. We'll see how that goes for us in a few weeks.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I don't believe getting Kessel to waive his clause is going to be a real difficulty. It's pretty apparent that both parties would be open to going a different direction.

Would Kessel waive for Edmonton? No. But would Kessel waive for a handful of teams that aren't on his list? I think that possibility is higher than it was a year ago, for sure.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Watch Phil go on a monster playoff tear and all these folks that want to move him are just gonna shift to the return being bigger. Which is fine. I get it.

I only move Phil because the Pens future needs some young blood that helps now.


But I am going to miss the hot dog loving son of a gun. I love the guy on this team. I would also be fine seeing him retire a Penguin.

As Letang fan # 1 I could honestly care less about that.

As the #1 Rust fan and the #3 Letang fan, I also care less about that.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Outside of the LA Kings, a top 5 regular season team in its conference wins the Cup pretty much every year the past decade. Caps were that last year. Pens were that the year before. The Hawks were that in their Cup years.

When I say favorite, I'm not talking a single team out of the many. I'll rephrase my previous statement. One of the favorites. Ok?

We're struggling this year just to stay in the Metro bracket. And the two primary reasons for that are a pretty **** 2nd line most of this year and lack of legit top 4 puck moving D-men ALL year. We miss Schultz and we struggle to start the year. No Letang? And we have like no one to throw out there in 3 on 3 after Schultz. It's March and Kessel is still flubbing routine passing plays and going weeks at a time multiple times without scoring.

I'd address those things moving forward to give us a better chance at contending on a year to year basis. We're gambling that Phil wakes up this year. And that JJ doesn't revert back to poop like earlier in the season. We'll see how that goes for us in a few weeks.

I mean...are we not gonna lay some or a lot of the blame on management here or just the players? Because the coaching has been shit to mediocre for stretches with a fart in the winds worth of brilliant coaching and then the GM making some iffy moves and then fixing some shit but still worse off than we could have been if he just gave some shit time...

Got Reaves.
Got Oleksiak who they tried to use like Reaves but he's an OFD
Moved Reaves
Oleksiak made out with Wilson's fist.
Oleksiak got dumped
We needed a fighter - probably should have kept Reaves since he can take a shift and Wilson is f***ing garbage.
Got Gudbranson.

 

[mpp9]

I mean...are we not gonna lay some or a lot of the blame on management here or just the players? Because the coaching has been **** to mediocre for stretches with a fart in the winds worth of brilliant coaching and then the GM making some iffy moves and then fixing some **** but still worse off than we could have been if he just gave some **** time...

Got Reaves.
Got Oleksiak who they tried to use like Reaves but he's an OFD
Moved Reaves
Oleksiak made out with Wilson's fist.
Oleksiak got dumped
We needed a fighter - probably should have kept Reaves since he can take a shift and Wilson is ****ing garbage.
Got Gudbranson.

JR makes moves. Sometimes they work. He's batting about .500 right now this year so I wouldn't call him a huge problem. I will say I'm not sure he's the right GM to make the shrewd moves to extend our window. I think he's gonna trade Phil in a one for one type swap like he does pretty much all the time. Hopefully he'll keep his 1st at the draft. And he sucks at building defenses so I'm not holding my breath that he'll see the importance of signing one of Gardiner/Krug and how it would be a coup for this team moving forward.

As long as a coach isn't getting in the way of a roster's success, I'm not going to bitch about it. Sullivan has done way more good than bad here.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

The first step is finding a trading partner for Kessel.
The second step is gauging what the return for Kessel will be.
The third step is talking to agents during the window where other teams can talk to players, I think that is the week before July 1st.
The fourth step is executing the plan if you have the pieces lined up.

If there is no free agent, or not a sexy free agent, move Kessel and look for a trade using the assets from the Kessel trade and our own assets.

Or just look for a hockey trade(s). I would certainly be content with replacing Kessel and Cullen for Zucker and Haula for example. That would be 2 trades, but you know JR is not afraid to trade and he has a green light and probably working with a three year window until Geno and Letang’s contracts are up.

In Step 1, you again fail to realize it's 8 teams that Kessel will go to. Eight

 

[Honour Over Glory]

JR makes moves. Sometimes they work. He's batting about .500 right now this year so I wouldn't call him a huge problem. I will say I'm not sure he's the right GM to make the shrewd moves to extend our window. I think he's gonna trade Phil in a one for one type swap like he does pretty much all the time. Hopefully he'll keep his 1st at the draft. And he sucks at building defenses so I'm not holding my breath that he'll see the importance of signing one of Gardiner/Krug and how it would be a coup for this team moving forward.

As long as a coach isn't getting in the way of a roster's success, I'm not going to ***** about it. Sullivan has done way more good than bad here.

He does get in the way of the rosters success though. I'm just not getting why people refuse to believe or see it.

 

[Riptide]

Fantasy Land?

Yes. To get someone like Skinner or Panarin or Duchene, it's a pure fantasy that will not happen. It would take A) too much luck to get one of the top FAs and B) too many moves to clear the cap space in order to make it happen even if they were willing to come here.

Which is why I said that if we were to move Kessel and back fill it with one of the guys in the 2nd tier of players, that might be realistic - but aiming above that is living in a fantasy land.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Watch Phil go on a monster playoff tear and all these folks that want to move him are just gonna shift to the return being bigger. Which is fine. I get it.

I only move Phil because the Pens future needs some young blood that helps now.


But I am going to miss the hot dog loving son of a gun. I love the guy on this team. I would also be fine seeing him retire a Penguin.

As the #1 Rust fan and the #3 Letang fan, I also care less about that.

You're saying that like it's a given. It's not.

But if Phil-Geno-Rust plays like the $20M line they'll be and outplays its ES competition by a good margin, I'd consider keeping him.

 

[Riptide]

It's March and Kessel is still flubbing routine passing plays and going weeks at a time multiple times without scoring.

I'd address those things moving forward to give us a better chance at contending on a year to year basis. We're gambling that Phil wakes up this year. And that JJ doesn't revert back to poop like earlier in the season. We'll see how that goes for us in a few weeks.

Please do not delude yourself into thinking that cold streaks like this are limited to Kessel. I mean Malkin who is an elite player went 41 games when he only scored 3 ES goals. And most of the realistic options to replace Kessel in FA (aka no Skinner, Panarin or Duchene, if he'd even be willing to move to the wing) will also go through similar stretches.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Having Phil means you're relying on Geno to be Superman every night in terms of getting the puck and then scoring though. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Are we not relying on Geno right now? Do you think Phil opens up opportunities in that line more than he hurts it?

Right. But you're talking about this current Kessel we're getting. I'm talking about "at his best" Kessel, who can do stuff that his replacement likely won't be able to do.

I mean, Geno himself has had his moments of complete uselessness this season. But I wouldn't want to move on from him, either, since any deal involving him would be an automatic downgrade in talent/potential production.

 

[Nakawick]

In Step 1, you again fail to realize it's 8 teams that Kessel will go to. Eight

No, I don’t fail to realize squat about trading Kessel. I have been saying Kessel should be traded since our 2nd of the back to backs, for the reasons many are starting to realize now. There were only a couple of us saying trade Kessel then. I suggest you go look at the history of Kessel threads if you want, or search my post history. One of the reasons I specified then and have always specified regarding trading Kessel is the fact that he has an 8 team list. Every time I discuss trading Kessel it involves his 8 team list. That is why Minnesota keeps coming up as a possible partner, because they were one of the teams on his list when he was traded to the Pens. Sorry to be blunt, but you might as well say that Trump never said build a wall.

 

[Nakawick]

Yes. To get someone like Skinner or Panarin or Duchene, it's a pure fantasy that will not happen. It would take A) too much luck to get one of the top FAs and B) too many moves to clear the cap space in order to make it happen even if they were willing to come here.

Which is why I said that if we were to move Kessel and back fill it with one of the guys in the 2nd tier of players, that might be realistic - but aiming above that is living in a fantasy land.

I would not rule out anything. Did JR trade for Kessel? Why can’t he trade him again? Or trade for another elite winger. Was JR not in on Duchene? Is JR not mandated to win cups?
Nothing is a given, but signing a FA winger is certainly not some fantasy land pie in the sky suggestion.
Freeing cap space is not hard, Kessel and a D goes a long way. We still have other salary that can/could be moved if needed as well.

I would take Duchene at 8.5 or Skinner at 7.5 ahead of Kessel in a heart beat.

 

[Peat]

Re #1. Even if Kessel doesn't expand his list (and I'm skeptical that he would), him at 6.8m with a 82m cap vs 6.8m/8m with a 71.4m makes a big difference. Even more so that he's now no longer seen as someone you "can't win with". I mean you're talking about 9.5m/11.2% of the cap vs 8.2% in terms of cap percentage.

Those are things in our favour, but I don't think they make a big one if we've only got a few teams interested and maybe not that seriously. We need a couple of teams that are serious about it - and that doesn't happen unless Kessel wants it.

We would have to move a lot more then just Kessel to accomplish this. Right now just moving Maatta should solve our cap issues for the season. If we want to sign someone who makes more than Kessel, we would have to find a way to A) trade Kessel without bringing back additional assets and B) move someone else to accommodate the raise that someone like Skinner would get. And we'd need to get a replacement for the player we just traded.

While its not happening, and would be quite difficult if they even tried, the prospect of them trimming down the D even more if currently pretty attractive.

I honestly think it comes down to the Maatta thing.

We have too many natural RWs. We already lost Sprong because of it. With our need for cap, the development of Jake and Rust into 20+ goal guys and the addition of Bjugstad and McCann as additional 20 goal potential players here it just does not make sense to keep Kessel. Unless for some reason they finally decide to run Jake - Crosby - Kessel as L1.

It is either Hornqvist or Kessel and at this point Hornqvist does so much more on each line.

We don't actually have too many RWs at the moment imo - not with Bjoogs settling into C - and our next tranche of prospects is very LH dominant.

How easy do you think it is to play with Sid or Geno and put up 70+ points consistently? I get a lot of that is PP points, but he is still producing 40+ ES points and importantly, he stays healthy.

Who can we replace him with that provides 40+ ES points consistently, stays healthy, and can run their own line if/when Malkin is injured?

ZAR has a 42 ES pace in the top 6 right now and he ain't all that. Now, sure, the consistency and health things are issues... but if ZAR can do it, a better player can definitely do it. A better less brittle player.

JR makes moves. Sometimes they work. He's batting about .500 right now this year so I wouldn't call him a huge problem. I will say I'm not sure he's the right GM to make the shrewd moves to extend our window.

Right now I'd break it down and say his percentage for first up moves is a fair number under .500 but his percentage for fix up moves is insane.

Please do not delude yourself into thinking that cold streaks like this are limited to Kessel. I mean Malkin who is an elite player went 41 games when he only scored 3 ES goals. And most of the realistic options to replace Kessel in FA (aka no Skinner, Panarin or Duchene, if he'd even be willing to move to the wing) will also go through similar stretches.

Malkin's cold streak is a little on Kessel though. He's the guy feeding the ammo.

 

[mpp9]

Please do not delude yourself into thinking that cold streaks like this are limited to Kessel. I mean Malkin who is an elite player went 41 games when he only scored 3 ES goals. And most of the realistic options to replace Kessel in FA (aka no Skinner, Panarin or Duchene, if he'd even be willing to move to the wing) will also go through similar stretches.

I'm quite aware players go through cold stretches. I watch the games just like you.

I'm not even in favor of landing one of the big name wingers in free agency. It'll be too costly and unlikely to happen anyway.

I'm saying Malkin could use a player who still brings something to the table if he isn't scoring. Backchecking, helping with faceoffs, net front, taking hits to make plays. Generally not being an abomination on the ice if he's not scoring. You can find such a player quite easily.

I have zero interest in watching Malkin and Kessel together next season.