Salary Cap: Salary Cap + Roster Building | Cap Details + Links in First Post | Trade Deadline 2.25

[trooper66]

Theres a post on the trade board saying the price is very high.

I’m also reading that a 2nd rounder might do it. Bit of a gamble though.... but he is RFA next year, he has 9 points in 45 games so far this year

 

[3074326]

All this Kessel talk, all these Kessel charts, and I haven't seen anyone mention how GREAT he has been in the playoffs for us. This team is a different team in the postseason and everyone in the league knows it. We won 2/3 cups with Phil the Thrill and he made an arguable case for Conn Smythe one season. I don't think moving him is a good idea at all. Not right now, anyways. We don't need to retool the entire roster, we need to get another good dman.

 

[Turin]

Wonder what the oilers would want for Jesse Puljujarvi?

They are up against the cap pretty bad. This guy has had a lot of potential and could be interesting to see what he could do on this team. He is only 20 so most likely would take a full year or so for him to get the pens system.

He’s awful.

 

[Pancakes]

How Kessel will age is purely speculative. It's not an especially big issue either since his contract only takes him to his age 34 season. It's only a problem if his play falls off a cliff before the contract runs out and I don't see any indications that is happening any time soon.

 

[Nakawick]

I have a better chance of winning the lottery than JR does of pawning off Kessel and Johnson on a team WITHOUT retaining or taking back a bad contract.

Pearson for a 3rd, trade that 3rd with JJ for a 7th or an AHL contract. Could we pull that off?

 

[Pens x]

Pearson has been such a disappointment, my gosh.

Talk about a lose-lose trade for both teams.

 

[trooper66]

He’s awful.

Poor development, remember Schultz
I think he is too young to strive for the pens this year though

 

[Turin]

Philly picked up Talbot.

 

[66-30-33]

I'd go after Pool Party and try converting him to LW. If he doesn't work with the coach and team we all know he will be traded to Anaheim, that's what we do with all our young players that the coach hates.

 

[Riptide]

It is insane to me the amount of adjustment in terms of money they are sitting to facilitate Wilson.

I'd take Wilson's play in recent games over Pearson's. Pearson should be the better player, but of the two, Wilson has been the more effective player recently.

 

[EightyOne]

I'd take Wilson's play in recent games over Pearson's. Pearson should be the better player, but of the two, Wilson has been the more effective player recently.

And if Pearson were on the 4th line, who then?

 

[Riptide]

If he has defensive issues, it isn't that great of a contract.

If your #1C doesn't want to play with him and your #1A C isn't that defensively responsible, that's an issue as well.

And if he isn't actually good enough to drive a line without either of those players (he isn't), then his lines are going to play his opponents to a draw 5-on-5. At best. Not great considering his elite status and his salary.

Why? As has been commented on many times around here, most teams do not have top 6 players on L3. So even if Kessel can't drive a line, that still doesn't mean that A) he can't make L3 a success depending on the rest of the line and B) that "at best" all he can do is play them to a draw. I mean what's the rational behind that?

Why can't you trade Kessel for another skilled winger, though? Would you really downgrade by trading Kessel and bringing in say Zucker?

If they're moving Kessel, I want to talk to Nashville to see if you can get Fiala as the main piece for him. Fiala, a prospect and a 1st for Kessel seems like a great return to me.

Simply put, yes. I'm a fan of Zucker, but you're losing a lot of skill on the wing. You're getting more speed and a better all around game, but Zucker isn't going to make half the play's Kessel does. I want to put less offensive responsibility onto our centers, not more.

Value wise - absolutely. But does Fiala and a 1st make us a better team (and I doubt we'd get much more than that)? Younger and cheaper... but if it's not keeping us at a similar level (at the bare minimum) in the process then I'm not all that interested in it.

Because you likely get a Kessel lite on LW to play with Malkin or a RD since we likely lose Schultz after next season.

Or you cling to Kessel because he had a great run two seasons ago and because of his powerplay prowess ignoring the elephant in the room which is he doesn’t improve either of Sid or Malkin’s game and can’t carry a third line.

A) How does getting a "Kessel lite" improve the team over Kessel?
B) How does getting a RD for Kessel help our forward group?
C) Why are we likely to lose Schultz? It could happen, but if his injury showed us anything, it's that we're pretty dependent on him (or someone like him). And given his low production rate last season, unless he has a great season next year, odds are he's not getting a raise.

Also, why is it when someone wants to keep one of the only 2 good skilled wingers we have, it's because we're "clinging to a great run he had two seasons ago" or "because of his PP prowess" ?? I want to keep Kessel because he's a highly skilled player who would be very hard to replace given his 6.8m cap hit. Not impossible, but very very hard.

 

[Riptide]

It's not really a "fantasy" when it seems pretty likely that the Penguins trade Kessel sometime in the next 3 years

What happened to him getting traded this summer?

I mean, let's be realistic here. The Penguins are almost definitely trading Kessel this off-season unless they win the cup.

Yeah, but Rust will get shut down when it matters the most unlike Kessel right?

@Ogrezilla

My fear is that having Rust (or more player's like him vs someone like Kessel) will see Crosby/Malkin get shutdown because the other team can focus on them vs having to show any respect to their wingers. I think people forget just what KCD was like back in the day.

I'm not saying that we must have Kessel or someone just like him to avoid that scenario, but without a highly skilled winger to replace him, that's a very likely situation that we'd find ourselves in. And Crosby and Malkin are not getting any younger and as such will need even more help then what they had previously. Rust can do part of that... but he's not going to create offense with his playmaking skills - and that is what we'll need to help Crosby and Malkin as they age.

He is when it comes to both sides of the puck and playing with Sid and Malkin.

That's more versatile, not a "better player". There's a pretty big difference between the two.

Okay, but Bryan Rust is already a better 5 on 5 player than Phil Kessel. So a better Bryan Rust is better than Bryan Rust, who is also better 5 on 5 than Phil Kessel.

Phil Kessel is also not nearly as good on the powerplay as you think he is.

Based on what exactly?

Rust has ~695 ES minutes this season, of which he's played ~437 with Crosby or Malkin (mostly Crosby).
Kessel has ~705 ES minutes this season, of which he's played ~496 with Crosby or Malkin (mostly Malkin).

And despite Kessel's #1 linemate playing like trash at ES for his last 41 games, Kessel still has more ES points then Rust.

As for the PP, I guess that's why since coming to Pittsburgh (3.5 seasons ago), he's #2 in the league in PP points. But yeah, what a chump.

I mean, he is if you include stuff outside of offense. Like I'd easily take Rust at ES over Kessel at ES, and it's not getting any closer as they get older. Rust had a horrible start to this year, and yet he's still only 8 ES points behind Kessel on the year (13 goals and 35 points for Kessel vs 14 goals and 27 points for Rust).

A pretty big part of that lands on who Kessel is playing with. Malkin has 3 ES goals in his last 41 games. That's obviously going to play a role in what his ES numbers are. And despite that he's still out producing Rust.

Whatever happens this year good or bad, this has to be the end of the trying to win a cup with this roster. Kessel has to go for cap and fit reasons. He can't drive/carry a line and is still a very good offensive winger. But I suspect the next 5 games will shed some light on what moves if any GMJR makes. Olli will need to go on LTIR if any significant moves are made since I can't see a Pearson or JJ being moved currently.

1) Why does this "has to be the end of the trying to win a cup with this roster"? Rutherford has changed the roster significantly this season with Hagelin, Sprong, Sheahan and Brassard getting sent out and bringing in Pearson, Pettersson, Bjugstad and McCann. He did a great job of getting a lot younger.

2) Why does Kessel "have to go for cap/fit reasons" ?? We have several players who are much more likely to be moved before Kessel for "cap reasons" in Pearson or Bjugstad. Likely the former vs the latter, but if push came to shove I'd imagine that both would be gone before Kessel.

3) Unless Maatta is out for the rest of the regular season, we cannot put him on LTIR and then use that cap space to bring in an expensive replacement D. Because at the end of the day, you still need the cap space to put Maatta back onto the roster when he returns from injury, which means any replacement you get needs to have a minimal cap hit. OR Maatta needs to be out for the rest of the regular season - and from what we know (or at least I know), that's not the suspected timeline.

 

[Peat]

Kessel with a Crosby or Malkin is not worth as much as kessel or a kessel level player on the third line... teams only have so many legitimate defensive stalwarts and rarely enough to cover 70% of the icetime so you literally make them pick their poison, but even then the third line is seeing more defensive zone starts so having the speedy sniper on it is advantageous IF you have a defenseman or center who can get the puck to him in transition....

I think this team sorely has missed that Daley type of defenseman... and was hoping to find that in JJ... and it hasn’t worked... compounded with Shultz being out and its a glaring weakness

Again just getting a bryan rust type isn’t going to pull a defensive coverage apart like a motivated Kessel does...

Also im not sure anything this team does in the regular season should matter much cause they have played with little motivation during the past two years in it... basically only when they are in real danger of dropping out of the playoffs do they really try... they mostly all have a bad case of veteran regular season itis....

Then how comes Sid had one of his worst ES post-seasons in forever when Phil was on the 3rd? And how comes we haven't seen Sid/Geno's stats surge in seasons when Phil's mostly on the 3rd?

Then I think the PP is weighted far too lightly. There isn't a minor difference between Kessel and Zucker on the PP, it's night and day.

Kessel's been the most productive player on our PP. You can't just replace your best PP player and expect no significant dropoff if you throw Bjugstad or someone of that calibre in his place. That really undervalues what Kessel does out there.

If individual quality on the PP is that important and Kessel is our best player, how comes Toronto had a league average PP in Kessel's three last years there while we had the 2nd best? A period in which Malkin paced to score 32 more PP points than Kessel? To me those numbers shout that system is more important. As long as talent remains, the system will continue to thrive.

In any case, the PP is maybe 20% of your play-off goals. ES is about 66%. So if ES is about 3 times more important, then I think its fair to say that the guy who's better at the 3 times more important thing is close to the guy who's a lot lot better at the less important thing (and still pretty darn good at ES).

We have draft picks, prospects, and a ton of other players who aren't living up to their contracts. I'd exhaust every possibility involving those before entertaining a deal where we move Kessel just to get Zucker.

We have 3 draft picks in the top 100 over the next 2 years. Our prospect pool is widely considered one of the weakest in the NHL. The guys not living up to their contracts have poor trade value. There's not a lot of trade possibilities there. There's a reason we're still staring at a weak defence halfway through the season.

Simply put, yes. I'm a fan of Zucker, but you're losing a lot of skill on the wing. You're getting more speed and a better all around game, but Zucker isn't going to make half the play's Kessel does. I want to put less offensive responsibility onto our centers, not more.

I'm a lot more bothered about removing their skating and physical responsibilities. I don't want Sid and Geno having to keep taking punishment and their games seem to be more effective for having linemates that win possession battles.

B) How does getting a RD for Kessel help our forward group?

Improving our transition play would be a huge boost.

Also, why is it when someone wants to keep one of the only 2 good skilled wingers we have, it's because we're "clinging to a great run he had two seasons ago" or "because of his PP prowess" ?? I want to keep Kessel because he's a highly skilled player who would be very hard to replace given his 6.8m cap hit. Not impossible, but very very hard.

This bit is true. He's really good. I don't think people should be disappointed if we go into next season with him.

What happened to him getting traded this summer?

Yohe was saying at the time this summer was a lot more likely.

That's more versatile, not a "better player". There's a pretty big difference between the two.

Based on what exactly?

Rust has ~695 ES minutes this season, of which he's played ~437 with Crosby or Malkin (mostly Crosby).
Kessel has ~705 ES minutes this season, of which he's played ~496 with Crosby or Malkin (mostly Malkin).

And despite Kessel's #1 linemate playing like trash at ES for his last 41 games, Kessel still has more ES points then Rust.

As for the PP, I guess that's why since coming to Pittsburgh (3.5 seasons ago), he's #2 in the league in PP points. But yeah, what a chump.

Production isn't everything. If Rust is better in several areas of the game and close in individual production, there's an argument. Realistically I'd like Rust to be closer to that (and a bit better away from the puck too) before I was happy saying better... but I think there's an argument.

 

[JTG]

I find myself split on Kessel because he is so highly productive still, but when his drop off comes, it's going to come in a quick hurry and we will be stuck with him. Luckily he doesn't have a ton of time left on his deal.

 

[The Old Master]

A) How does getting a "Kessel lite" improve the team over Kessel?
B) How does getting a RD for Kessel help our forward group?

I also don't want to trade phil (now). getting him the right players should be our first option. but to answer your ?
A) our top two centers might want to play with them,
B) get the puck to them in accurately and in a timely manner would help the forwards greatly

 

[OnMyOwn]

I find myself split on Kessel because he is so highly productive still, but when his drop off comes, it's going to come in a quick hurry and we will be stuck with him. Luckily he doesn't have a ton of time left on his deal.

I think he’s here for the current window. Once he’s traded or leaves via FA in a couple years....we’re gonna be re-tooling/re-building.

He’s been a key contributor and proven playoff performer that is never hurt. Keeping him isn’t an issue for me at all.

 

[The Old Master]

Then how comes Sid had one of his worst ES post-seasons in forever when Phil was on the 3rd? And how comes we haven't seen Sid/Geno's stats surge in seasons when Phil's mostly on the 3rd?



If individual quality on the PP is that important and Kessel is our best player, how comes Toronto had a league average PP in Kessel's three last years there while we had the 2nd best? A period in which Malkin paced to score 32 more PP points than Kessel? To me those numbers shout that system is more important. As long as talent remains, the system will continue to thrive.

A) In any case, the PP is maybe 20% of your play-off goals. ES is about 66%. So if ES is about 3 times more important, then I think its fair to say that the guy who's better at the 3 times more important thing is close to the guy who's a lot lot better at the less important thing (and still pretty darn good at ES).



B) We have 3 draft picks in the top 100 over the next 2 years. Our prospect pool is widely considered one of the weakest in the NHL. The guys not living up to their contracts have poor trade value. There's not a lot of trade possibilities there. There's a reason we're still staring at a weak defence halfway through the season.

Yohe was saying at the time this summer was a lot more likely.

.

A) there is a lot more to it than just phil.
B) if we are going for picks this isn't a good yr. to do it (not a deep draft) I think next yr. should be better.

 

[K Fleur]

Pearson has been such a disappointment, my gosh.

Talk about a lose-lose trade for both teams.

LA atleast gets to let Hagelin walk in the summer. Plus they got rid of Pearson. Think they won and Pittsburgh just lost.

 

[Peat]

A) there is a lot more to it than just phil.
B) if we are going for picks this isn't a good yr. to do it (not a deep draft) I think next yr. should be better.

I thought this was meant to be a decent year? In any case, any picks we get are probably currency, and any prospects we make with the picks become currency. And currency was my main point. Not that we need to restock the pool, but our ability to shop with it isn't great.

 

[Pens x]

LA atleast gets to let Hagelin walk in the summer. Plus they got rid of Pearson. Think they won and Pittsburgh just lost.

I agree, but I didn’t feel like straight up saying that and getting attacked by the fan boys.

Jimmy rarely made deals like this except for Despres during our cup years. He would come out on top in these types of trades, not so much anymore. Now he’s making awful decisions regularly.

 

[The Old Master]

LA atleast gets to let Hagelin walk in the summer. Plus they got rid of Pearson. Think they won and Pittsburgh just lost.

not so sure about that.....we could still get something for pearson if he doesn't improve. imo

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

I know Pearson's been a ghost recently but remember he was playing significantly injured for a while.

Iirc the games hes been healthy he has 13 in 28 which comes to a 38 point pace.

So im not attached to him by any means, especially since we have other, cheaper options, he is certainly not under water imo by any means.

 

[chethejet]

IN a potential FA market of Panarin, Silverberg, Stone and Duchene, hard to trade into that and a team give up assets. But my guess is a couple of teams will be left at the altar and Kessel will be a player that elevates the offense. Plus Kessel brings back assets to offset the loss. First round and top D prospect is what should be coming to the Pens.

 

[Malkinstheman]

So according to capfriendly, we have 1.9m in cap space right now, and thats without putting Maatta on LTIR. Trade Pearson and that opens up space for quite a bit of salary.