Salary Cap: Salary Cap + Roster Building (Cap Details in First Post) | Turning Pages

[Ugene Magic]

Brassard is not getting more than 40 points.

If that is your expectation for a 3C you’re out to lunch. We’ve never had a 3C with a consistently healthy Geno and Crosby do that. Not even Staal.

You might want to check that.

 

[Empoleon8771]

*wins B2B Cups as 3rd line C*

HES NOT EVEN A CENTRE STOP DEFENDING HIM

This place sometimes.

I guess the sarcasm just flew right over your head. Go back and read the conversation, slower this time. It was a sarcastic response to someone saying Pageau wasn't a center because of 2 paragraphs that said he could play wing.

 

[Gurglesons]

You might want to check that.

Jordan Staal - Seasons above 40 pts

07-08 42 pts (Malkin’s winger)
08-09 49 pts
09-10 49 pts (Malkin played 67 games)
11-12 50 pts (Sid played 22 games)

So sorry. I guess Staal did do it in his prime for some reason I thought Sid missed time in 08-09.

My point is Staal isn’t a 3C. He’s a six million dollar player.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Brassard is a top line center in this league, if you can't get 40 points out of him playing 3C he is not what you thought he was.

That's really not asking for much for the player he is supposed to be. He is not devoid of making things happen 5 on5, PK and so on.

If he can't do that, that was a huge waste of assets.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Absolutely - just not when comparing raw numbers and then saying "see player X is better because of this". Especially when pointing to stats that would never happen here such as being stapled to Anaheim's #1PP unit.

but looking at Bonino's points here and then discounting the powerplay points is pretty dumb.

 

[Empoleon8771]

My point is Staal isn’t a 3C. He’s a six million dollar player.

To be fair though, I'm not sure you have a good team with Staal as a top-6 forward, unless he's on a defensive 2nd line and you have an offensive 3rd line with someone like Brassard as the center. He's just not good enough offensively.

 

[Gurglesons]

I guess the sarcasm just flew right over your head. Go back and read the conversation, slower this time. It was a sarcastic response to someone saying Pageau wasn't a center because of 2 paragraphs that said he could play wing.

My point wasn’t that Pageau is not a center.
It is that he played wing in situations that gave him top 6 minutes which is the criticism against Bonino. He got favorable starts leading to his points. So have a Pageau and Faksa because they don’t have two top five centers in front of them.
Same thing with Soderberg.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Brassard is a top line center in this league, if you can't get 40 points out of him playing 3C he is not what you thought he was.

That's really not asking for much for the player he is supposed to be. He is not devoid of making things happen 5 on5, PK and so on.

If he can't do that, that was a huge waste of assets.

He's not a top line center, so he's not who you think he is. He's a 2nd line center who puts up 40-50 points in the top 6. He's hit 58 and 60 points in the top 6 with top powerplay time. He's never hit 50 other than those two years. 40 points as his minimum with a 3rd line role and 2nd unit PP is not a reasonable floor to expect. 40 points from him in the role he's in would be a great season. His career average is 48, with 14 of those on the powerplay.

 

[Gurglesons]

To be fair though, I'm not sure you have a good team with Staal as a top-6 forward, unless he's on a defensive 2nd line and you have an offensive 3rd line with someone like Brassard as the center. He's just not good enough offensively.

... this is why we get into arguments. Staal is the prototypical 2C.

He’s 46 in ES production amongst centers since being moved and 51 in total production. 76 in terms of PPG. But, that’s without filtering out players with a way smaller sample size. If we adjust for GP by saying say 300 GP in that time span he is 50ish.

 

[Turin]

I guess the sarcasm just flew right over your head. Go back and read the conversation, slower this time. It was a sarcastic response to someone saying Pageau wasn't a center because of 2 paragraphs that said he could play wing.

You’re right I didn’t read it, I was too busy mocking the other Bonino posts in my head. Carry on.

 

[Empoleon8771]

... this is why we get into arguments. Staal is the prototypical 2C.

When I read "prototypical", I think "average". Is that fair to say? Staal will put up low end 2C production with elite defense, but I think that low end 2C production is why you'll never be a great team with him as a 2C. Sure, there are definitely exceptions to that (basically every Chicago cup winning team), but I feel like you need better than Staal as a 2C if you actually have cup aspirations because of his production.

 

[Gurglesons]

When I read "prototypical", I think "average". Is that fair to say? Staal will put up low end 2C production with elite defense, but I think that low end 2C production is why you'll never be a great team with him as a 2C. Sure, there are definitely exceptions to that (basically every Chicago cup winning team), but I feel like you need better than Staal as a 2C if you actually have cup aspirations because of his production.

I guess.. I think most teams would kill to have a Jordan Staal at 2C. You’re just thinking how we run our centers.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Jordan Staal - Seasons above 40 pts

07-08 42 pts (Malkin’s winger)
08-09 49 pts
09-10 49 pts (Malkin played 67 games)
11-12 50 pts (Sid played 22 games)

So sorry. I guess Staal did do it in his prime for some reason I thought Sid missed time in 08-09.

My point is Staal isn’t a 3C. He’s a six million dollar player.

Now correlate him with PP points and the such that should increase. Right?

No. Staal did most of his work 5 on5 and the PK. The fact Crosby or Malkin are not there mean nothing. He was a steady 40 point player regardless of year, whom he played with.

Brassard is supposed to be even higher or equal to.

So, I really don't see why we shouldn't expect more of the same.

Last part: So is Brassard on his next deal, a six million dollar player, who has played top six and scored 50/60 points. Just because he only makes 3.0 here doesn't mean he's not making 5.0 on the final year of his deal.

Right now, he's basically doing that (28 games with 11 points) but he needs to step up a little more since he's still under what he should be.

 

[Riptide]

When I read "prototypical", I think "average". Is that fair to say? Staal will put up low end 2C production with elite defense, but I think that low end 2C production is why you'll never be a great team with him as a 2C. Sure, there are definitely exceptions to that (basically every Chicago cup winning team), but I feel like you need better than Staal as a 2C if you actually have cup aspirations because of his production.

I think it then depends on who your 3c is. You could run Bozak or someone like him there if you had someone like Staal as your 2c. The issue for us is that we don't have Staal as our 2c, we have Malkin. Which means we have different requirements that we need to get out of our 3c.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

It sure would be something if we could pry Staal out of Carolina to be our 3C again. Obviously contingent on Staal embracing that role here after leaving because he wanted more, but his bro's long gone and maybe he's sick of losing every single year. He hasn't even made the playoffs once with the Canes - what a waste.

I wonder if something like Brassard, Hallander, and a 1st could get it done. Brass would probably be a better fit for Carolina than Staal if they want pure offense.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I guess.. I think most teams would kill to have a Jordan Staal at 2C. You’re just thinking how we run our centers.

If you have a guy like Kuznetsov as your 1C, I agree. I just think you need an elite offensive center (or something really close to it) to negate out Staal being a sub-50 point center. I think production is by far the most important thing to get out of top-6 forwards, amazing defense doesn't overshadow mediocre production for players in that kind of role.

Now, if you have Brassard putting up 50 points on an offensive 3rd line or Kuznetsov putting up over a PPG as your 1st line center, Staal's offense doesn't matter because you're getting offense from somewhere else. If you have Staal as your 2C, you use your 2nd line like the Penguins use their 3rd line and make your 3rd line an offensive line. That's what I think teams with Staal as the 2C would have to do to be successful.

I think it then depends on who your 3c is. You could run Bozak or someone like him there if you had someone like Staal as your 2c. The issue for us is that we don't have Staal as our 2c, we have Malkin. Which means we have different requirements that we need to get out of our 3c.

Yeah, I agree with that and it's a big reason why I think Brassard is a great fit in Carolina as a UFA. You'll have Aho as the 1C, so you're set there. You'll use Staal as a defensive 2C and Brassard as an offensive 3C. That's how I would run with a team that has Staal as a 2C, but Carolina has given him close to 50/50 offensive zone starts for some reason.

 

[Ugene Magic]

He's not a top line center, so he's not who you think he is. He's a 2nd line center who puts up 40-50 points in the top 6. He's hit 58 and 60 points in the top 6 with top powerplay time. He's never hit 50 other than those two years. 40 points as his minimum with a 3rd line role and 2nd unit PP is not a reasonable floor to expect. 40 points from him in the role he's in would be a great season. His career average is 48, with 14 of those on the powerplay.

I completely disagree.

I think people who underestimate what they did to get him, and it was a lot, (that whole 3 team trade was about Brassard), and what he's capable of doing today. 4o points really isn't a high expectation for who he is, and the team this is.

This team is also much better than the one Staal patrolled. Brassard really shouldn't have much problems getting favorable matchups. The other teams still deploy their best against either Sid or Geno.

3rd C should be a walk in the park compared to Top C and PP minutes playing against the best. He should be feasting 5 on 5 as a 3C.

 

[Riptide]

Yeah, I agree with that and it's a big reason why I think Brassard is a great fit in Carolina as a UFA. You'll have Aho as the 1C, so you're set there. You'll use Staal as a defensive 2C and Brassard as an offensive 3C. That's how I would run with a team that has Staal as a 2C, but Carolina has given him close to 50/50 offensive zone starts for some reason.

Because they have no one else to give them to. Rask has a whopping 2 pt's this season. They want to win, and after Aho only have Staal who can play at a high level and perhaps help his team get a goal.

 

[Gurglesons]

Now correlate him with PP points and the such that should increase. Right?

No. Staal did most of his work 5 on5 and the PK. The fact Crosby or Malkin are not there mean nothing. He was a steady 40 point player regardless of year, whom he played with.

Brassard is supposed to be even higher or equal to.

So, I really don't see why we shouldn't expect more of the same.

Last part: So is Brassard on his next deal, a six million dollar player, who has played top six and scored 50/60 points. Just because he only makes 3.0 here doesn't mean he's not making 5.0 on the final year of his deal.

Right now, he's basically doing that (28 games with 11 points) but he needs to step up a little more since he's still under what he should be.

Brassard is a 6 million dollar player in 2018. Staal at 23 coming off what he was in 2012 is likely getting what Couts just did. 8 x 8.

Expecting a 31 year old to put up 40-50 pts as a 3C here is just insane.

 

[PensandCaps]

Just saying..
Carolina board hates Staal and think he is immovable with his contract. Maybe we shouldn't want Staal back and give up big assets for him.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Because they have no one else to give them to. Rask has a whopping 2 pt's this season. They want to win, and after Aho only have Staal who can play at a high level and perhaps help his team get a goal.

But even in past years, it was the same way. They're using Staal with 54% offensive zone starts this year, but they were still around 47%-50% in all but 1 other season. From what I know about Rask, he's actually a guy that should be used in an offensive role. He's just having a bad season this year, just like Staal.

If my team had Staal as the 2C, I'd be murdering him with heavy defensive assignments because that's what he's best at. With Aho performing great as your 1C, I'd be trying to find a guy like Brassard to give super easy offensive minutes in the 3C spot.

Carolina has such problems on their roster that I think they should just blow it up. I don't understand how a team with this roster is this disappointing. Sure, their goaltending sucks really bad, but there is no excuse for why they're 30th in the NHL in goals for.

 

[PensandCaps]

Brassard is a 6 million dollar player in 2018. Staal at 23 coming off what he was in 2012 is likely getting what Couts just did. 8 x 8.

Expecting a 31 year old to put up 40-50 pts as a 3C here is just insane.

Brassard ain't a 6 mil player.

I bet he gets like 5-5.5 in the offseason. Maybe less. He's definitely tanked his stock.

 

[Gurglesons]

Just saying..
Carolina board hates Staal and think he is immovable with his contract. Maybe we shouldn't want Staal back and give up big assets for him.

Does Carolina like any of their players at this point? Team is a perennial disappointment and Lindholm gets moved and is killing it.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Brassard will probably have to take a short-term "prove it" contract after this season.

 

[Gurglesons]

Brassard will probably have to take a short-term "prove it" contract after this season.

Highly doubt it.