Salary Cap: Salary Cap + Roster Building (Cap Details in First Post) | Turning Pages

[Ogrezilla]

Because Rutherford was greedy and made a bad decision.



But he wasn't. Guentzel wasn't in the NHL for half of the season in 2016-2017, who was Bonino's prime competition for PP time. He also wasn't as established as he was entering last season. Sheahan had to go against a full season of Guentzel, plus JR got greedy and added Brassard. You also had skilled guys like Simon and Sprong (in the limited sample they were up) that took away ice time from Sheahan that Bonino didn't have to deal with.

we're just gonna have to agree to disagree here.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Jean-gabriel Pageau - Frozen Tools

Go take a look for yourself.

In 16-17 and 17-18 he spent time with Pyatt and Smith at center on the LW.

So where does it actually say this? Because I see it saying that Pageau, Smith and Pyatt played together, but it never says that Pageau was the LW on that line. Those line combinations are just listed alphabetically by last name, that's why it goes Pageau-Pyatt-Smith.

Seeing how Senators fans have said that Smith is a LW that can play center and Pageau took twice as many faceoffs as Smith last season, I'm willing to bet the line was Smith-Pageau-Pyatt. We can go ask Senators fans, but I have a pretty good feeling about that one.

Faksa has played with Pitlick in Spezza.

Yes, and Stars fans were adamant that Spezza playing on the wing is why he was terrible last season.

Again, we have faceoff numbers for these guys. Faksa and Pageau both took over 1200 faceoffs last year. To argue they're a winger is just stupid and wrong, it's a waste of my time to respond to this crap.

You’d know that if you watched any games outside the Penguins as per usual.

I dunno. Maybe you should watch games and stop stat watching as a be all and end all.

Pulling the Titor approach I see? Be blatantly wrong and pretend you're right, and then say "actually watch the games" to pretend you're right.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I think it only becomes an issue if you don't have someone else who can center the #2PP while still filling it with quality players. And when comparing different players in different roles, ES vs PP points are important to separate. But yes that's absolutely a limitation that Sheahan has, where Bonino was significantly better.

That's literally all I'm saying. But apparently I can't because it's not fair.

 

[Gurglesons]

So where does it actually say this? Because I see it saying that Pageau, Smith and Pyatt played together, but it never says that Pageau was the LW on that line. Those line combinations are just listed alphabetically by last name, that's why it goes Pageau-Pyatt-Smith.

Seeing how Senators fans have said that Smith is a LW that can play center and Pageau took twice as many faceoffs as Smith last season, I'm willing to bet the line was Smith-Pageau-Pyatt. We can go ask Senators fans, but I have a pretty good feeling about that one.



Yes, and Stars fans were adamant that Spezza playing on the wing is why he was terrible last season.

Again, we have faceoff numbers for these guys. Faksa and Pageau both took over 1200 faceoffs last year. To argue they're a winger is just stupid and wrong, it's a waste of my time to respond to this crap.



Pulling the Titor approach I see? Be blatantly wrong and pretend you're right, and then say "actually watch the games" to pretend you're right.

Pageau is positively credited for his fearless mentality on the ice in unequal-numbered situations and his versatility when it comes to playing different offensive positions. He’s been utilized in the past as both a center and a winger, and is seen occasionally flipping back-and-forth between the two at will by the Senators’ coaching staff. Because of his relentless persistence, Pageau is also highly touted for his ability to agitate the opposing team and serve as a handy penalty killer when Ottawa is down a man.

Pageau spends a lot of time playing alongside Chris Kellyand Tom Pyatt, where loads of success was curated for Ottawa this season. That could possibly be as a result of those three guys seeing considerable amounts of time in the center and winger positions throughout their careers, and the fact that the trio always knows where the others are on the ice. Though he’s mainly been a third/fourth line guy, you’ll see him being matched up against the opposition’s best skaters in a lot of games.

I’ve watched Pageau a lot and he’s a player I really like. He’s essentially Talbot. He’s slotted at center, but his assignments change to wing a lot.

I was one of the people saying to get him or Brassard all of last year. One of the reasons I liked Pageau or Bennett is that they could slot in top six LW role we desperately needed or you could play them at 3C.

 

[Riptide]

There is no stats. I actually watch the teams. Pageau was 100% used as a winger as late as 16-17.

Maybe for a game or two... but when he takes 40% more FOs as the #4 guy in both 15/16 and 16/17 it should be pretty obvious that he's being used almost entirely as a center.

 

[Pancakes]

Because Rutherford was greedy and made a bad decision.

This is revisionist crap. The Brassard trade hasn't worked out, but at the time the vast majority of this board was pleased as punch with that deal. On paper, it was a great move.

 

[Empoleon8771]

So the faceoff numbers that show Pageau has clearly been used primarily as a center are wrong because of 2 paragraphs that say he can play wing? Flawless argument, glad we cleared that up.

Nick Bonino replaces Teemu Selanne on Ducks' first line

Bonino isn't a center, he's a winger. He played LW with Perry and Getzlaf, so that obviously means he wasn't a center. I'm just shocked that there are any Bonino defenders left, especially ones who will just blatantly lie to defend him.

This is revisionist crap. The Brassard trade hasn't worked out, but at the time the vast majority of this board was pleased as punch with that deal. On paper, it was a great move.

It's really not, a lot of people didn't want to acquire Brassard. There were quite a few people who wanted to see the Penguins get a better 4C and focus on other areas on the roster. Everyone was excited about the rumors and no one was mad about the trade, but there were people who didn't want the Penguins to go after Brassard.

 

[Riptide]

Fair enough I guess.

Yes you can. You just need to consider why they are used in different roles. In this case, Bonino is used on the powerplay because he's good on the powerplay. Sheahan isn't used on the powerplay because he's not as good at it. Well, wasn't. At this point it's obvious with Brassard. But before Brassard got here, he was still not used on the PP. That's not an unfair advantage for Bonino that needs to be ignored, it's an earned advantage for Bonino that should be factored in to what he adds to his team.

Absolutely - just not when comparing raw numbers and then saying "see player X is better because of this". Especially when pointing to stats that would never happen here such as being stapled to Anaheim's #1PP unit.

 

[Gurglesons]

Maybe for a game or two... but when he takes 40% more FOs as the #4 guy in both 15/16 and 16/17 it should be pretty obvious that he's being used almost entirely as a center.

Talbot took more faceoffs than Malkin in the 08-09 playoffs. Does that make Malkin a winger?

I know this is a dumb point, but FO numbers don’t necessarily mean the player is taking center assignments.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

This is revisionist crap. The Brassard trade hasn't worked out, but at the time the vast majority of this board was pleased as punch with that deal. On paper, it was a great move.

I was not, I preferred Pleks and his lower cost. The only way Brass works out for us and is worth the cost is if Geno gets hurt for an extended period. He has not, and the results have been pretty predictable. The trade could still work out for us if Geno goes down though, so I'm not inclined to ship out Brass for scraps considering Geno's injury history.

I just wish Brass would actually try. If we get the Brass from other night, things will be a lot better. Maybe once he realizes he's not being traded (if that happens), we'll see a different player. I'm hopeful.

 

[Pancakes]

It's really not, a lot of people didn't want to acquire Brassard. There were quite a few people who wanted to see the Penguins get a better 4C and focus on other areas on the roster. Everyone was excited about the rumors and no one was mad about the trade, but there were people who didn't want the Penguins to go after Brassard.

Doesn't change the fact that it was on paper a great move. Having that kind of center depth should have been a home run. It still might prove to be if Brassard figures it out before he moves on in free agency.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Doesn't change the fact that it was on paper a great move. Having that kind of center depth should have been a home run. It still might prove to be if Brassard figures it out before he moves on in free agency.

It was a great move on paper, but I still think my point stands there. I don't think anyone was upset about the trade, but I do think some people didn't want to acquire Brassard. Most of it was being pleased with what Sheahan was doing in the 3C role IIRC, but there were also some that didn't want an offensive 3rd line center instead of a 2-way or a defensive 3C.

 

[Gurglesons]

It was a great move on paper, but I still think my point stands there. I don't think anyone was upset about the trade, but I do think some people didn't want to acquire Brassard. Most of it was being pleased with what Sheahan was doing in the 3C role IIRC, but there were also some that didn't want an offensive 3rd line center instead of a 2-way or a defensive 3C.

I think most of the hestiance to the trade came out when it was revealed Cole was involved.

 

[Pancakes]

It was a great move on paper, but I still think my point stands there. I don't think anyone was upset about the trade, but I do think some people didn't want to acquire Brassard. Most of it was being pleased with what Sheahan was doing in the 3C role IIRC, but there were also some that didn't want an offensive 3rd line center instead of a 2-way or a defensive 3C.

My counter to that is what happens last year (or this) if someone gets hurt? We'll be pretty glad to have Brassard then.

We've been lucky the past few years (knock on wood) with injuries, but in the past missing Crosby or Malkin for long stretches of time was not unusual. Pretty sure nobody would want Riley Sheahan as our 2c if it ever comes to that.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think most of the hestiance to the trade came out when it was revealed Cole was involved.

I think that's another factor that made people squeamish when the trade happened. When people were anticipating the trade, I think most people expected Sheary or Hunwick to be the cap casualty to afford Brassard.

My counter to that is what happens last year (or this) if someone gets hurt? We'll be pretty glad to have Brassard then.

We've been lucky the past few years (knock on wood) with injuries, but in the past missing Crosby or Malkin for long stretches of time was not unusual. Pretty sure nobody would want Riley Sheahan as our 2c if it ever comes to that.

See, I disagree with that argument now just like I disagreed with it last season. I don't think you can build your team based on being good enough to win without one of your best players. If you lose Crosby or Malkin, you're boned. I don't think you can plan around that, you just have to build the best roster you can make with thinking everyone is going to be healthy. Sure, you want depth to replace your depth players, but you can't plan on having to replace guys like Letang, Kessel, Malkin or Crosby.

 

[Gurglesons]

I think that's another factor that made people squeamish when the trade happened. When people were anticipating the trade, I think most people expected Sheary or Hunwick to be the cap casualty to afford Brassard.



See, I disagree with that argument now just like I disagreed with it last season. I don't think you can build your team based on being good enough to win without one of your best players. If you lose Crosby or Malkin, you're boned. I don't think you can plan around that, you just have to build the best roster you can make with thinking everyone is going to be healthy. Sure, you want depth to replace your depth players, but you can't plan on having to replace guys like Letang, Kessel, Malkin or Crosby.

I think if Brassard is healthy and Malkin and Kessel are injured last year we beat Washington.

Brassard was .5PPG versus Philly.

Then he was used as a 4C and was a ghost in Washington.

Wouldn’t be surprised at all to see him pull a Rust have a few hot games and suddenly be at a 40 pt pace.

I think people thought he’d be Staal, but that is why Staal got the contract he did.

 

[NMK11]

Not sure how much you remember about Anaheim in 13/14, but Bonino was a staple on their #1PP, where he picked up 20 of his 49pts. He was also their #3F in terms of overall TOI. As for 14/15 in Vancouver, he was their #2C, #4F in ESTOI and #3F in total TOI. What he definitely wasn't, was their #3C.

Which means you're not really talking about a typical third line center at this point, but more of a quasi #2C who saw (in ANA anyway) #1 PP time. It wasn't until 15/16 that he was actually played as a 3c full time (other than injuries). If you look at his last 3.5 seasons, he's ~78th in C scoring after you take out the 8 or so wingers listed as a center.

Soderberg, Eakin, Filppula, Jarnkrok, Bjugstad, Pageau, Danault, Eller, Tierney. There's 9 and I could probably find some more if I was all that willing to do so. And yes Sodo was (as per COL's lineup rosters their 3c). If we were going to start taking contracts into affect (and Bonino's 4.1m cap hit), I'd probably even take Sheahan and whatever he gets next season over him.

Fair points on Bonino. But look at the options you give. I've bolded the ones I agree with as definitely better scorers. Jarnkrok is good, but puts up low 30 pts/season. Bjugstad plays a lot on the wing. Pageau hit 43 once because he scored 7(!) SHG but otherwise tops out at 33 pts/season. Last year was the first time Eller scored over 30 pts in his career. Even Soderberg is a bit iffy because he's more of a 2/3C with PP time in his good years (your points for ignoring Bonino's best years) who plays more than your average 3c (while being older than Bonino).

They're all good players, and I'd take any one of them on this team as the 3C. I'm less trying to get into a debate about ranking all these guys, but rather to point out that even your list of who you think are the best 3Cs in the league still all average about low-mid 30 pts/season. That's what a 3C does, but we all think of that as bad.

Like what was said last night, it's not just about total points. Personally, I want one of 3 players for the 3C spot:

1. Someone who doesn't bring much defensive strength, but someone who meshes with Kessel and produces like a 2C in a 3C role while playing with Kessel. If my 3C isn't strong defensively, I want him to be producing at ridiculous levels, something like 45-50 points with about 40 ES points.
2. Someone who is a defensive and possession monster that can a part of a grinding shutdown line. This is kinda like what Sheahan was last year, but someone who can get around 30 points a year with heavy Dzone usage and while playing with guys like Simon, Rust and Hornqvist. Radek Faksa is a perfect example of this, he had 33 points last year (all at ES) while playing with guys like Janmark, Roussel and Pitlick with a 33.4% offensive zone start%.
3. A faster and less streaky version of Bonino. Basically someone who is good both defensive and offensively for a 3C, so you can use them in either an offensive role (like the HBK line) or a defensive role, that fits the system better and is much more consistent.

You can come up with quite a few 3Cs for each of those categories. For #3, guys like Danault, Tierney and Jarnkrok fit that. For #2, you have Pageau, Faksa and Bjugstad. For #1, you're looking at offensive 2nd line centers like Brassard. Even a 2013 version of Gagner would fit #1.

I'm going to ignore your first point because I'm talking about the expectations of an NHL 3C, not using a 2C in a 3C role. That's like using Malkin in an attempt to classify what a 2C is (not that you're being disingenuous, you just answered a slightly different question than what I'm posing). Pretty much all of the other guys listed score about the same as Bonino. They all belong in the conversation of the best at their position. Again, like I said to Riptide, I'm not trying to get into a debate about who is better than whom, but to point out that people need to realign their expectations about what a 3C is capable of. If the fit is bad, that's one thing, but if someone puts up 30-35 points playing in the 3C role, well, that's not actually as bad as everyone makes it out to be.

 

[Riptide]

That's literally all I'm saying. But apparently I can't because it's not fair.

No, just don't point to raw numbers (Bonino put up 49 in Anaheim), and then use that as the justification. I have no issues with someone saying that player A is good enough to go on the 2nd PP, where as player B isn't nearly as good there. Although to be fair, we saw very little of Sheahan on the PP, but even then he still put up a better P/60 then Bonino did the year prior (4.7 vs 5.13).

I almost wonder if the reason why was because of how Sullivan wanted to use Sheahan and who else we had who could play on the PP, and with the ability for Guentzel to play C/take the FOs? I mean our 2nd PP last season was Guentzel+Sheary and then one of ZAR, Rust or Simon. I mean with no PP time, Sheahan was already seeing 15+ minutes a game.

 

[Pancakes]

See, I disagree with that argument now just like I disagreed with it last season. I don't think you can build your team based on being good enough to win without one of your best players. If you lose Crosby or Malkin, you're boned. I don't think you can plan around that, you just have to build the best roster you can make with thinking everyone is going to be healthy. Sure, you want depth to replace your depth players, but you can't plan on having to replace guys like Letang, Kessel, Malkin or Crosby.

It's not necessarily about being good enough to win a Cup without Crosby or Malkin. Obviously, you'd need them to win 4 playoff series. But maybe you can win one or two without one of them, which gives them time to get healthy for the other two series.

Also, we're no longer such a good team that making the playoffs is a foregone conclusion. If one of Crosby or Malkin goes down I like having that insurance.

But yes, ultimately you need to be healthy to win a cup. But you can't win a cup if you can't get to the dance. And sometimes you can get by those early series' without a star player if you've got depth.

 

[Riptide]

It's really not, a lot of people didn't want to acquire Brassard. There were quite a few people who wanted to see the Penguins get a better 4C and focus on other areas on the roster. Everyone was excited about the rumors and no one was mad about the trade, but there were people who didn't want the Penguins to go after Brassard.

Meh, I think at best there were a handful of us. And even then most were content after we acquired Brassard. It wasn't our first choice, but that didn't make it a bad one.

 

[Riptide]

Talbot took more faceoffs than Malkin in the 08-09 playoffs. Does that make Malkin a winger?

I know this is a dumb point, but FO numbers don’t necessarily mean the player is taking center assignments.

Yes he did take more... four more to be precise. That's a little different then Pageau taking 400-500 more FOs then Smith.

 

[Ugene Magic]

This whole thread just reaffirms my belief that this fanbase just had unrealistic expectations of a third line center. It's like because we have a generational player as our second line center, our third line center should only be a step below that?

Serious question to people saying all of Brassard, Bonino, and Sutter are not good 3c's: how many points would you be happy with from that position?

That depends on who he actually plays with.

For the player he is, even with subpar linemates he should be around 40/40+. That's a good step below if he were to have top line minutes and doing 50/60 plus. That's him losing his PP points he'd normally have.

Remember, this guy is a difference maker, and he hasn't been that enough.

Now if he's with Kessel for an entire season I'm counting on the 40+ he should see with him. That's a top line scenario minus the PP#s.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yes he did take more... four more to be precise. That's a little different then Pageau taking 400-500 more FOs then Smith.

I know that. My point still stands, taking a faceoff doesn’t make you the de facto center.

Pageau was consistently playing on lines with other centers throughout 15-16 and 16-17. He definitely got used as a winger in those situations at times.

 

[Gurglesons]

That depends on who he actually plays with.

For the player he is, even with subpar linemates he should be around 40/40+. That's a good step below if he were to have top line minutes and doing 50/60 plus. That's him losing his PP points he'd normally have.

Remember, this guy is a difference maker, and he hasn't been that enough.

Now if he's with Kessel for an entire season I'm counting on the 40+ he should see with him. That's a top line scenario minus the PP#s.

Brassard is not getting more than 40 points.

If that is your expectation for a 3C you’re out to lunch. We’ve never had a 3C with a consistently healthy Geno and Crosby do that. Not even Staal.

 

[Turin]

*wins B2B Cups as 3rd line C*

HES NOT EVEN A CENTRE STOP DEFENDING HIM

This place sometimes.