Salary Cap: Salary Cap + Roster Building (Cap Details in First Post) | Turning Pages

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Empoleon8771

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okay. You're missing the point though. Bones centering Kessel and Hagelin is asking him to play a completely different role than Sheahan centering Guentzel and Kessel. That's all I'm saying. It's not apples to apples.

Bonino played with both Guentzel and Kessel in 2016-2017 too. It wasn't as much, but it wasn't insignificant. I also think you're grossly overstating how often Guentzel-Sheahan-Kessel was together, it wasn't even together for 200 minutes last season.

Bjugstad is a winger. Pageau and Faksa are younger players. You’re essentially comparing what players did in their prime with a player in his late 20s and early 30s.

Bonino put up 49 and 39 when he was 25ish. The same age as most of these players you and Rip are listing.

I’m fine with saying Faksa and Pageau are better centers, but let’s be honest. Someone has to score on those **** teams.

And that 49 point season includes 20 powerplay points. He had 1 season of being above 30 ES points, which was the year he was the 2C for Vancouver. He had 25 ES points in 80 games in 2016-2017, 25 ES points in 71 games in 2017-2018 and is on pace for 29 ES points through 82 games this season.

When Bonino was the same age as Pageau and Faksa, he wasn't used like a defensive 3rd line center. He was used like an offensive 2C and he wasn't very good at it. Go look back at the 2013-2014 Ducks and 2014-2015 Canucks roster. He's 2nd in ice time among centers on both of those teams, he wasn't getting Malkin 2C minutes, but he was their 2nd line centers.
 

Gurglesons

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There's also a difference between over half of your ice time with Kessel (what Bonino did) vs a third of your ice time with Kessel and a fourth of your ice time with Guentzel (what Sheahan did).

Bonino had more combined ice time with Kessel (490:54) and Guentzel (98:24) in 2016-2017 than Sheahan had with Kessel (291:36) and Guentzel (252:21) last season. Do you know what's even funnier? Guentzel-Bonino-Kessel was a line the Penguins used in 2016-2017, it existed for 71:55 compared to 187:36 for Guentzel-Sheahan-Kessel.

Bonino’s disappointing 16-17 year ended with him putting up more points than Sheahan has ever done in a season. He had a PPG rookie season that was better, but no surprise there.
 

Gurglesons

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And that 49 point season includes 20 powerplay points. He had 1 season of being above 30 ES points, which was the year he was the 2C for Vancouver. He had 25 ES points in 80 games in 2016-2017, 25 ES points in 71 games in 2017-2018 and is on pace for 29 ES points through 82 games this season. =

But, that is what this team wants make-up wise. Malkin and Sid are always going to account for the majority of our ES strength production here.
 

Empoleon8771

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But, that is what this team wants make-up wise. Malkin and Sid are always going to account for the majority of our ES strength production here.

It has been the same way for him in Nashville. The only years where he produced above that was when he was a 2C for that team.

Bonino’s disappointing 16-17 year ended with him putting up more points than Sheahan has ever done in a season. He had a PPG rookie season that was better, but no surprise there.

Sheahan in Pittsburgh in 2017-2018: 32 points in 73 games, with 29 ES points
Bonino in Pittsburgh in 2016-2017: 37 points in 80 games, with 25 ES points

The fact that you're only looking at total points, while ignoring the pesky little fact that Sheahan didn't get powerplay time last year, tells me all that needs to be said about this discussion. Sheahan had 27 minutes on the powerplay in 2017-2018, Bonino had 138 in 2016-2017. I wonder why he produced more.
 

Ogrezilla

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Bonino played with both Guentzel and Kessel in 2016-2017 too. It wasn't as much, but it wasn't insignificant. I also think you're grossly overstating how often Guentzel-Sheahan-Kessel was together, it wasn't even together for 200 minutes last season.
I mean, it was his most common line and a quarter of his ES production.

I still love that another 1/5th of his production came in the 5% of his ice time he was with Reaves.
 

Ogrezilla

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The fact that you're only looking at total points, while ignoring the pesky little fact that Sheahan didn't get powerplay time last year, tells me all that needs to be said about this discussion.
I know ES scoring is important, but can we point out that Sheahan doesn't get PP time because he sucks at the PP, while Bonino does get PP because he doesn't suck on the PP? Those points still count.
 

mpp9

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The trade off of making the third line more offensive is that you then need to make Sid and Malkin's lines more two-way/possession lines as they'd have to take (a few) more d-zone starts, plus the fact that you really can't get 6 offensive top 9 wingers on one team. I would personally be fine with trying it, but it's easier said than done.

I think it'd be a good thing to have the coaching staff challenge Malkin to be a more responsible player. If we have some depth scoring beyond Sid, Malkin can let the game come to him and stop spazzing out every shift.

As for our biggest need. Having a third line with Brass and Kessel playing up to their abilities makes us a contender up front. But our biggest need is still a D pairing that can help get the puck to our 2nd and 3rd lines.
 

Gurglesons

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It has been the same way for him in Nashville. The only years where he produced above that was when he was a 2C for that team.

He’s 31 and has had some injuries now. His production will decline, but he’s still a great 3C. I think this is one of those situations where what the player brings on the ice versus the other is not quantifiable by stats.

There is a reason Sheahan got a low ball UFA offer and traded for a 3rd and Bonino was a main piece in the Kesler trade and got a 4x4 contract from one of the best ran franchises in the league.

Judging by the way you and Rip try to shade him, he’s going to be getting a 4 mil contract with term next year.
 
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Gurglesons

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I think it'd be a good thing to have the coaching staff challenge Malkin to be a more responsible player. If we have some depth scoring beyond Sid, Malkin can let the game come to him and stop spazzing out every shift.

As for our biggest need. Having a third line with Brass and Kessel playing up to their abilities makes us a contender up front. But our biggest need is still a D pairing that can help get the puck to our 2nd and 3rd lines.

Coaching staff isn’t challenging Malkin.
They are giving those minutes to a combo of Sheahan, Sid and Cullen.

No problem there to be honest.
 

Tom Hanks

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I feel there is a massive issue with shot blocking among our 3C. Derrick Brassard has 5 total blocked shots in 28 games. That is something that Bones was so damn good at. Especially situational shot blocking. Riley Sheahan has 19 blocked shots in 36 games. Together they have 26 blocked shots. Bones has 34 blocked shots in 37 games.

It doesn't seem like much of a difference, right? I think it is. Pens are giving up 33.1 shots per game. Nashville is giving up 28.7. Even with less shots against, Bones is still blocking more. I really think Bones ability to shot block turned into some HBK transition offense. Especially when he had Hags/Kessel flying around. Those loose pucks turned into magic.

Now.. here is where the stats match the eye test: Playoffs

Bones - 50 blocked shots 15-16 playoffs. (24 GP)
Cullen - 26 blocked shots 15-16 playoffs. (24 GP)

Brassard - 2 blocked shots in 17-18 playoffs. (12 GP)
Sheahan - 12 blocked shots in 17-18 playoffs. (12 GP)


I'm not saying we need a shot blocker, but I think when discussing Nick Bonino, the one thing that never gets discussed was his uncanny ability to sacrifice for the team. Hell.. his sacrifice led to a broken leg or whatever it was. I think the Pens have to search for that skilled 3C with some sacrifice. They need a little bit of both.

That last paragraph certainly rings true. If you want to go deep in the playoffs you need to have the Bonino types who will leave it all out on the ice. They might not always have the best games but they will always make a contest, put their body’s on the line and make life difficult for the opposition. Hornqvist is another.

Now saying that those types leave it all out on the ice is not meant to disrespect the others on the team but the Bonino/Hornqvist types have that ability to step up the intensity and that will to do what it takes to help the team. There’s no real stats for it but it’s where the real intangibles come into play.
 

Empoleon8771

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I know ES scoring is important, but can we point out that Sheahan doesn't get PP time because he sucks at the PP, while Bonino does get PP because he doesn't suck on the PP? Those points still count.

The Penguins had much better powerplay options in 2017-2018 than they had in 2016-2017. The 2nd unit in 2016-2017 was something like Daley, Bonino, Kunitz, Guentzel and Sheary at the end of the year (since Letang was out, remember that). The 2nd unit last season was Maatta, Schultz, Guentzel, Sheary and Rust for the most part. When they were here, Simon and Brassard were also guys ahead of Sheahan on the depth chart. The Penguins were a lot deeper last season than I think most want to give them credit for, they had a better roster in 2017-2018 than they had the year before. That's not even including losing Letang in 2016-2017.

He’s 31 and has had some injuries now. His production will decline, but he’s still a great 3C. I think this is one of those situations where what the player brings on the ice versus the other is not quantifiable by stats.

There is a reason Sheahan got a low ball UFA offer and traded for a 3rd and Bonino was a main piece in the Kesler trade and got a 4x4 contract from one of the best ran franchises in the league.

Judging by the way you and Rip try to shade him, he’s going to be getting a 4 mil contract with term next year.

Do you know what's really funny? You would be grilling me if I'd be using this same exact argument to defend Johnson. If I said stuff like the bolded, you'd be attacking me, especially the "best run franchises" part.
 

Ogrezilla

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The Penguins had much better powerplay options in 2017-2018 than they had in 2016-2017. The 2nd unit in 2016-2017 was something like Daley, Bonino, Kunitz, Guentzel and Sheary at the end of the year (since Letang was out, remember that). The 2nd unit last season was Maatta, Schultz, Guentzel, Sheary and Rust for the most part. When they were here, Simon and Brassard were also guys ahead of Sheahan on the depth chart. The Penguins were a lot deeper last season than I think most want to give them credit for, they had a better roster in 2017-2018 than they had the year before. That's not even including losing Letang in 2016-2017.
We ran a 2nd unit without a center instead of playing Sheahan there. That's not a good sign for his PP abilities.

Bonino, as you pointed out, has been getting PP points since he was with the Ducks.
 

Empoleon8771

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We ran a 2nd unit without a center instead of playing Sheahan there. That's not a good sign.

Guentzel was a center on that powerplay unit. Guentzel is capable of being a center, he's a NHL caliber center. He's just a better winger. It's like Drouin being a center on a powerplay unit, there's really nothing wrong with that.

My comment isn't that Sheahan is a good powerplay player, although I do think he deserved more PP ice time. He was successful on the powerplay with the Wings early in his career. It's that you can't compare total points for 2 guys when one is getting powerplay time and the other isn't.
 

ColePens

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That last paragraph certainly rings true. If you want to go deep in the playoffs you need to have the Bonino types who will leave it all out on the ice. They might not always have the best games but they will always make a contest, put their body’s on the line and make life difficult for the opposition. Hornqvist is another.

Now saying that those types leave it all out on the ice is not meant to disrespect the others on the team but the Bonino/Hornqvist types have that ability to step up the intensity and that will to do what it takes to help the team. There’s no real stats for it but it’s where the real intangibles come into play.

I think that's my problem with Sheahan. His only game with heart this year was the Washington game. Where is that Riley? Why can't he bring that on a consistent basis? I don't even think he had a point that game and I can honestly say that was his absolute best game in a Pens sweater.

And that's why Brass not producing at a high rate is disappointing because he doesn't bring much else other than possible offensive production.
 
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Gurglesons

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Bonino played with both Guentzel and Kessel in 2016-2017 too. It wasn't as much, but it wasn't insignificant. I also think you're grossly overstating how often Guentzel-Sheahan-Kessel was together, it wasn't even together for 200 minutes last season.



And that 49 point season includes 20 powerplay points. He had 1 season of being above 30 ES points, which was the year he was the 2C for Vancouver. He had 25 ES points in 80 games in 2016-2017, 25 ES points in 71 games in 2017-2018 and is on pace for 29 ES points through 82 games this season.

When Bonino was the same age as Pageau and Faksa, he wasn't used like a defensive 3rd line center. He was used like an offensive 2C and he wasn't very good at it. Go look back at the 2013-2014 Ducks and 2014-2015 Canucks roster. He's 2nd in ice time among centers on both of those teams, he wasn't getting Malkin 2C minutes, but he was their 2nd line centers.

Pageau and Faksa were used as a wingers just like Bones in their first couple years.
 

Gurglesons

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The Penguins had much better powerplay options in 2017-2018 than they had in 2016-2017. The 2nd unit in 2016-2017 was something like Daley, Bonino, Kunitz, Guentzel and Sheary at the end of the year (since Letang was out, remember that). The 2nd unit last season was Maatta, Schultz, Guentzel, Sheary and Rust for the most part. When they were here, Simon and Brassard were also guys ahead of Sheahan on the depth chart. The Penguins were a lot deeper last season than I think most want to give them credit for, they had a better roster in 2017-2018 than they had the year before. That's not even including losing Letang in 2016-2017

Do you know what's really funny? You would be grilling me if I'd be using this same exact argument to defend Johnson. If I said stuff like the bolded, you'd be attacking me, especially the "best run franchises" part.

Why is that funny? Bonino’s statistics paint him as a solid player, not exceptional but solid. His X factors make him a great 3C on successful teams.

All of Johnson’s metrics have constantly painted him as a net negative the entirety of his career.

I’ll buy it if you want to say Johnson’s game excels in the playoffs due to the lack of penalties called and the lack of space, but his regular season totals paint him as exactly the player we’ve seen.
 

Ogrezilla

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Guentzel was a center on that powerplay unit. Guentzel is capable of being a center, he's a NHL caliber center. He's just a better winger. It's like Drouin being a center on a powerplay unit, there's really nothing wrong with that.
We also had Rust on the PP over Sheahan so that we could play Guentzel at center. Rust is not a good powerplay option, and Guentzel is not a center as long as it can be avoided. I'm sorry, but this is just a silly debate. Bonino has been a good powerplay guy since he was with the Ducks. Sheahan hasn't. It's a legitimate strength of Bonino's over Sheahan. I can't believe that's even up for debate.
 
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mpp9

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Coaching staff isn’t challenging Malkin.
They are giving those minutes to a combo of Sheahan, Sid and Cullen.

No problem there to be honest.

I think they've done a good job giving him rope when he was bleeding goals against. But as he gets older, he's gonna have long stretches of not producing like we're used to seeing. He has to be more fundamentally sound with the puck so he's not a huge minus player during those stretches.

It's not just for the team's benefit. He's going to be more suited for wing if he's gonna be a riverboat gambler at 35.
 

Gurglesons

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I think they've done a good job giving him rope when he was bleeding goals against. But as he gets older, he's gonna have long stretches of not producing like we're used to seeing. He has to be more fundamentally sound with the puck so he's not a huge minus player during those stretches.

It's not just for the team's benefit. He's going to be more suited for wing if he's gonna be a riverboat gambler at 35.

I don’t know if he has to be a wing, but I’d certainly look into getting a Pavelski like influence for him like Big Joe has.
 

Empoleon8771

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Pageau and Faksa were used as a wingers just like Bones in their first couple years.

Faksa was never used as a winger. In his second season, he was firmly a center and taking over 1200 faceoffs. In his first year, he took 400 faceoffs in half a season. Same thing with Pageau, he was firmly being used like a center by his first "full" season. I don't know what stats you're looking at that say Pageau and Faksa were used as wingers at first, they weren't.

Why is that funny? Bonino’s statistics paint him as a solid player, not exceptional but solid. His X factors make him a great 3C on successful teams.

All of Johnson’s metrics have constantly painted him as a net negative the entirety of his career.

I’ll buy it if you want to say Johnson’s game excels in the playoffs due to the lack of penalties called and the lack of space, but his regular season totals paint him as exactly the player we’ve seen.

Read what you wrote. You said that Bonino was good for reasons not quantified by stats, and that a great team gave him a big contract and GMs love him. How would you react to me saying that about Jack Johnson?
 
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Ogrezilla

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Read what you wrote. You said that Bonino was good for reasons not quantified by stats, and that a great team gave him a big contract and GMs love him. How would you react to me saying that about Jack Johnson?
The difference is that the stats for Bonino are good, while for Johnson they point to him being bad. It's a lot easier to make the argument that the guy with good stats is actually even better than that because of XYZ. It's tougher to justify a guy with terrible stats actually being good because of XYZ.
 

Empoleon8771

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We also had Rust on the PP over Sheahan so that we could play Guentzel at center. Rust is not a good powerplay option, and Guentzel is not a center as long as it can be avoided.

Why is it a problem for Guentzel to be a center on a powerplay unit? The extent of what a center does on the powerplay is take faceoffs. Why is that such a problem? You're not asking Guentzel to go up against someone like Bergeron at ES, you're asking him to take faceoffs for a powerplay unit.

I'm sorry, but this is just a silly debate. Bonino has been a good powerplay guy since he was with the Ducks. Sheahan hasn't. It's a legitimate strength of Bonino's over Sheahan. I can't believe that's even up for debate.

It's really amazing how some people just make up debates that aren't happening. That isn't the discussion and has never been the discussion. The entire point of this discussion has been you can't compare offensive numbers of 2 players who aren't being given the same offensive roles.

The difference is that the stats for Bonino are good, while for Johnson they point to him being bad. It's a lot easier to make the argument that the guy with good stats is actually even better than that because of XYZ. It's tougher to justify a guy with terrible stats actually being good because of XYZ.

Bonino doesn't have good stats though, unless we have different definitions of "good". They're fine 3C numbers.
 

Ogrezilla

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Why is it a problem for Guentzel to be a center on a powerplay unit? The extent of what a center does on the powerplay is take faceoffs. Why is that such a problem? You're not asking Guentzel to go up against someone like Bergeron at ES, you're asking him to take faceoffs for a powerplay unit.
But faceoffs are especially important on the PP. And Rust still kind of sucks on the powerplay.
It's really amazing how some people just make up debates that aren't happening. That isn't the discussion and has never been the discussion.
what is the discussion then? You were dismissing Bonino's powerplay production, so I'm pointing out that Bonino is better than Sheahan on the powerplay and that it's worth factoring in to their overall abilities as players. I want my 3C to be able to play on my 2nd powerplay.
 

Gurglesons

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Faksa was never used as a winger. In his second season, he was firmly a center and taking over 1200 faceoffs. In his first year, he took 400 faceoffs in half a season. Same thing with Pageau, he was firmly being used like a center by his first "full" season. I don't know what stats you're looking at that say Pageau and Faksa were used as wingers at first, they weren't.

There is no stats. I actually watch the teams. Pageau was 100% used as a winger as late as 16-17. Faksa was put on the second line in Dallas at various times as well.

You do realize that is how Bonino’s numbers got inflated with the Ducks his last year. He was primarily a center then bounced up to the 1st line and 1st PP when they needed production.

Read what you wrote. You said that Bonino was good for reasons not quantified by stats, and that a great team gave him a big contract and GMs love him. How would you react to me saying that about Jack Johnson?

If you think Nick Bonino’s stats are as bad as Jack Johnson’s, like usual you’re dead wrong.
 
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