Salary Cap: Salary Cap + Roster Building (Cap Details in First Post) | Turning Pages

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Turin

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Bonino was really effective when the HBK line was doing it's thing. However, he struggled after that. Even though he scored some key goals the follow year, his play took a hit. I would still take him over Sutter though.

I don’t remember him struggling individually, he played with scrubs like Rowney after that.
 

Riptide

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I could see high end being debatable. But in his last 5 years, Nick Bonino has averaged 36 points per season, one of which was cut short to 3/4 of a season, could play on the PP and PK, and was above average defensively. I would challenge you to name 8 (chose that number to put him in the second quartile) true third line centers (i.e. not a career 2C playing 3C like Brassard) that you'd take over him. Not that I"m 100% disagreeing with you, just curious.

Not sure how much you remember about Anaheim in 13/14, but Bonino was a staple on their #1PP, where he picked up 20 of his 49pts. He was also their #3F in terms of overall TOI. As for 14/15 in Vancouver, he was their #2C, #4F in ESTOI and #3F in total TOI. What he definitely wasn't, was their #3C.

Which means you're not really talking about a typical third line center at this point, but more of a quasi #2C who saw (in ANA anyway) #1 PP time. It wasn't until 15/16 that he was actually played as a 3c full time (other than injuries). If you look at his last 3.5 seasons, he's ~78th in C scoring after you take out the 8 or so wingers listed as a center.

Soderberg, Eakin, Filppula, Jarnkrok, Bjugstad, Pageau, Danault, Eller, Tierney. There's 9 and I could probably find some more if I was all that willing to do so. And yes Sodo was (as per COL's lineup rosters their 3c). If we were going to start taking contracts into affect (and Bonino's 4.1m cap hit), I'd probably even take Sheahan and whatever he gets next season over him.
 

Tom Hanks

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I'd be interested in Devin Shore. He's basically a younger Matt Cullen.

JR’s reaction being told there’s a younger Matt Cullen out there

images
 

Empoleon8771

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Bonino played 27 minutes in 2016-2017 with Rowney. He played nearly 500 minutes with Kessel. Spare me this BS that Bonino was playing with crap linemates. Bonino's 5 most common linemates were Kessel (by far #1), Hagelin, Kunitz, Wilson and Guentzel. He played over half of his ES time with Kessel.

It's why I laugh at people who just point at Bonino's production in 2016-2017. Oh wow, he put up 37 points, only 25 of which were at ES, while playing half of his ice time with Kessel. I just find it odd that some people add the qualifier on Sheahan's production that he put up a lot of points with Guentzel or Kessel, while Bonino was an absolute dud offensively without Kessel.

And yes, I can name quite a few better 3Cs than Bonino without trying. Bjugstad, Jarnkrok, Pageau, Tierney, Faksa and Danault are guys I'd easily take over Bonino.
 
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BHD

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Bonino played 27 minutes in 2016-2017 with Rowney. He played nearly 500 minutes with Kessel. Spare me this BS that Bonino was playing with crap linemates. Bonino's 5 most common linemates were Kessel (by far #1), Hagelin, Kunitz, Wilson and Guentzel. He played over half of his ES time with Kessel.

Yeah, the coaching staff tried numerous players with him, and it didn't make a difference. I don't hate him or anything, that's just how it went that season.
 

Empoleon8771

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Likewise, JR’s reaction being told there’s a younger an OLDER Matt Cullen out there

Age is just a number, I'm expecting a Matt Cullen extension any day now :laugh:

Yeah, the coaching staff tried numerous players with him, and it didn't make a difference. I don't hate him or anything, that's just how it went that season.

I can't bring myself to hate anyone who won 2 cups with the Penguins, especially when they were so essential in 1 run. I just view Bonino as a meh 3C who had stretches of being bad here. Sutter was a bad 3C because of his weaknesses, but Bonino wasn't that much better. And anyway, the more important part when it comes to Bonino is that you shouldn't be basing your standards for Brassard based on Bonino.
 

CrosbyMalkin

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This whole thread just reaffirms my belief that this fanbase just had unrealistic expectations of a third line center. It's like because we have a generational player as our second line center, our third line center should only be a step below that?

Serious question to people saying all of Brassard, Bonino, and Sutter are not good 3c's: how many points would you be happy with from that position?

I don’t think it was unrealistic at all. We got Brassard to provide a 3rd scoring line. We gave him Kessel to do that. He also got to play on the 2nd PP with good players like Guentzel and Schultz. It is not like we put him with plugs.

If Brassard can’t produce 45 points with those players then we need to find someone who can. I don’t want Kessel on a line that is producing 3rd line numbers. The purpose of Brassard was to make 3 balanced lines. We should of tried for Eric Staal back then instead of Brassard. Although I honestly thought Brassard would be better than this and thought his production was down because of Sens system. He was one of the Rangers top 2 scorers before playing for the Sens. I really thought Brassard had a chance to get back to that 50-60 point range of his Ranger days. Playing with Kessel and Pearson he should be able to produce.
 

ColePens

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I feel there is a massive issue with shot blocking among our 3C. Derrick Brassard has 5 total blocked shots in 28 games. That is something that Bones was so damn good at. Especially situational shot blocking. Riley Sheahan has 19 blocked shots in 36 games. Together they have 26 blocked shots. Bones has 34 blocked shots in 37 games.

It doesn't seem like much of a difference, right? I think it is. Pens are giving up 33.1 shots per game. Nashville is giving up 28.7. Even with less shots against, Bones is still blocking more. I really think Bones ability to shot block turned into some HBK transition offense. Especially when he had Hags/Kessel flying around. Those loose pucks turned into magic.

Now.. here is where the stats match the eye test: Playoffs

Bones - 50 blocked shots 15-16 playoffs. (24 GP)
Cullen - 26 blocked shots 15-16 playoffs. (24 GP)

Brassard - 2 blocked shots in 17-18 playoffs. (12 GP)
Sheahan - 12 blocked shots in 17-18 playoffs. (12 GP)


I'm not saying we need a shot blocker, but I think when discussing Nick Bonino, the one thing that never gets discussed was his uncanny ability to sacrifice for the team. Hell.. his sacrifice led to a broken leg or whatever it was. I think the Pens have to search for that skilled 3C with some sacrifice. They need a little bit of both.
 

Gurglesons

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Not sure how much you remember about Anaheim in 13/14, but Bonino was a staple on their #1PP, where he picked up 20 of his 49pts. He was also their #3F in terms of overall TOI. As for 14/15 in Vancouver, he was their #2C, #4F in ESTOI and #3F in total TOI. What he definitely wasn't, was their #3C.

Which means you're not really talking about a typical third line center at this point, but more of a quasi #2C who saw (in ANA anyway) #1 PP time. It wasn't until 15/16 that he was actually played as a 3c full time (other than injuries). If you look at his last 3.5 seasons, he's ~78th in C scoring after you take out the 8 or so wingers listed as a center.

Soderberg, Eakin, Filppula, Jarnkrok, Bjugstad, Pageau, Danault, Eller, Tierney. There's 9 and I could probably find some more if I was all that willing to do so. And yes Sodo was (as per COL's lineup rosters their 3c). If we were going to start taking contracts into affect (and Bonino's 4.1m cap hit), I'd probably even take Sheahan and whatever he gets next season over him.

Soderberg gets paid 4.75 and has played 17-18 minutes on average since going to Colorado.

Bonino has averaged 16.

Filp was essentially Tampa’s 2C until they moved him. He then was used as a 3C in Philly and put up similar numbers to Bones and was widely disliked by that fan base.

Every player you’ve picked is basically an overachiever on a bad team or was playing way more more than Bones ever got here.

Eller and Tierney are the only comparables and their play being better than Bones is arguable.
 

Empoleon8771

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This whole thread just reaffirms my belief that this fanbase just had unrealistic expectations of a third line center. It's like because we have a generational player as our second line center, our third line center should only be a step below that?

Serious question to people saying all of Brassard, Bonino, and Sutter are not good 3c's: how many points would you be happy with from that position?

Like what was said last night, it's not just about total points. Personally, I want one of 3 players for the 3C spot:
  1. Someone who doesn't bring much defensive strength, but someone who meshes with Kessel and produces like a 2C in a 3C role while playing with Kessel. If my 3C isn't strong defensively, I want him to be producing at ridiculous levels, something like 45-50 points with about 40 ES points.
  2. Someone who is a defensive and possession monster that can a part of a grinding shutdown line. This is kinda like what Sheahan was last year, but someone who can get around 30 points a year with heavy Dzone usage and while playing with guys like Simon, Rust and Hornqvist. Radek Faksa is a perfect example of this, he had 33 points last year (all at ES) while playing with guys like Janmark, Roussel and Pitlick with a 33.4% offensive zone start%.
  3. A faster and less streaky version of Bonino. Basically someone who is good both defensive and offensively for a 3C, so you can use them in either an offensive role (like the HBK line) or a defensive role, that fits the system better and is much more consistent.
You can come up with quite a few 3Cs for each of those categories. For #3, guys like Danault, Tierney and Jarnkrok fit that. For #2, you have Pageau, Faksa and Bjugstad. For #1, you're looking at offensive 2nd line centers like Brassard. Even a 2013 version of Gagner would fit #1.
 

BHD

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How did Bonino take a step back?

Because he wasn’t scoring at the 60 point pace he was when he was essentially being used as a second line in the playoffs the year before?

No, that's unfair to any player. There's more to evaluating a player than their stat line. However, Bonino had some good games and some rough games.
 

Riptide

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And yes, I can name quite a few better 3Cs than Bonino without trying. Bjugstad, Jarnkrok, Pageau, Tierney, Faksa and Danault are guys I'd easily take over Bonino.

Forgot about Faksa... and Lowry :o

So.. who exactly is a high end 3C?

I think it really depends on what you're looking for and to some extent what your team needs. Do you want someone who's only ever going to be a 3c (vs someone who could step up into a 2c), but is excellent defensively and produces as expected for that role? Or are you looking for someone who's good enough offensively to challenge an average team's 2c for icetime but could have some limitations with other aspects of their game?

But under no circumstances would I look at a list of 3C's and decide that Bonino belongs in the top 5 of those guys.
 
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Empoleon8771

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Forgot about Faksa... and Lowry :o

Oh yeah, Lowry is definitely another one and he belongs in the Faksa/Pageau/Bjugstad category for sure.

For me, I want someone who either is elite offensively or defensively relative to 3Cs out of my 3C spot. If they're only good both offensively and defensively, I want them to be able to skate well, fit the system and be as consistent as you can reasonably expect out of a 3C. Brassard is supposed to be one of the things I want out of my 3C, he's just not playing like it.
 

Ogrezilla

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I just find it odd that some people add the qualifier on Sheahan's production that he put up a lot of points with Guentzel or Kessel, while Bonino was an absolute dud offensively without Kessel.
There's a difference between Guentzel or Kessel vs Guentzel and Kessel. Bones had to be the #2 on that line, while Sheahan was the 3rd wheel.

Not downplaying what Sheahan did otherwise, as Rip pointed out yesterday was better than I remembered.
 

Empoleon8771

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There's a difference between Guentzel or Kessel vs Guentzel and Kessel.

There's also a difference between over half of your ice time with Kessel (what Bonino did) vs a third of your ice time with Kessel and a fourth of your ice time with Guentzel (what Sheahan did).

Bonino had more combined ice time with Kessel (490:54) and Guentzel (98:24) in 2016-2017 than Sheahan had with Kessel (291:36) and Guentzel (252:21) last season. Do you know what's even funnier? Guentzel-Bonino-Kessel was a line the Penguins used in 2016-2017, it existed for 71:55 compared to 187:36 for Guentzel-Sheahan-Kessel.
 

Gurglesons

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Forgot about Faksa... and Lowry :o

I think it really depends on what you're looking for and to some extent what your team needs. Do you want someone who's only ever going to be a 3c (vs someone who could step up into a 2c), but is excellent defensively and produces as expected for that role? Or are you looking for someone who's good enough offensively to challenge an average team's 2c for icetime?

But under no circumstances would I look at a list of 3C's and decide that Bonino belongs in the top 5 of those guys.

So, Lowry who has yet to break 30 points in the league?

Danault, Faksa and Lowry are also in their mid 20s like duh they are going to be better players offensively.

Soderberg, sure. But he isn’t used like a 3C in Colorado. Compher averages around 15-16 minutes.
 

Ogrezilla

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There's also a difference between over half of your ice time with Kessel (what Bonino did) vs a third of your ice time with Kessel and a fourth of your ice time with Guentzel (what Sheahan did).

Bonino had more combined ice time with Kessel (490:54) and Guentzel (98:24) in 2016-2017 than Sheahan had with Kessel (291:36) and Guentzel (252:21) last season.
okay. You're missing the point though. Bones centering Kessel and Hagelin is asking him to play a completely different role than Sheahan centering Guentzel and Kessel. That's all I'm saying. It's not apples to apples.
 

Gurglesons

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Like what was said last night, it's not just about total points. Personally, I want one of 3 players for the 3C spot:
  1. Someone who doesn't bring much defensive strength, but someone who meshes with Kessel and produces like a 2C in a 3C role while playing with Kessel. If my 3C isn't strong defensively, I want him to be producing at ridiculous levels, something like 45-50 points with about 40 ES points.
  2. Someone who is a defensive and possession monster that can a part of a grinding shutdown line. This is kinda like what Sheahan was last year, but someone who can get around 30 points a year with heavy Dzone usage and while playing with guys like Simon, Rust and Hornqvist. Radek Faksa is a perfect example of this, he had 33 points last year (all at ES) while playing with guys like Janmark, Roussel and Pitlick with a 33.4% offensive zone start%.
  3. A faster and less streaky version of Bonino. Basically someone who is good both defensive and offensively for a 3C, so you can use them in either an offensive role (like the HBK line) or a defensive role, that fits the system better and is much more consistent.
You can come up with quite a few 3Cs for each of those categories. For #3, guys like Danault, Tierney and Jarnkrok fit that. For #2, you have Pageau, Faksa and Bjugstad. For #1, you're looking at offensive 2nd line centers like Brassard. Even a 2013 version of Gagner would fit #1.

Bjugstad is a winger. Pageau and Faksa are younger players. You’re essentially comparing what players did in their prime with a player in his late 20s and early 30s.

Bonino put up 49 and 39 when he was 25ish. The same age as most of these players you and Rip are listing.

I’m fine with saying Faksa and Pageau are better centers, but let’s be honest. Someone has to score on those shit teams.

Bonino is part of a president’s trophy winner, three teams that made in to their conference final at minimum and two teams that made it to the second round in the past five years.

There is a reason Poile the GM many see as the best GM in the league picked him up. He’s a great player.

Also, our 3C is never going to be a point machine. We are looking at raw zone starts, how many times do you think Brassard or Bonino is being used above Sid and Malkin in a advantageous change. Our talent at wing increasing further complicated that.

Staal and Sutter were used much differently by worse coaches on worse rosters. In their career years here they were arguably the 3rd or 4th best players on the team. Our 3Cs in the Sully era are lucky to be 6th or 7th.
 
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