Injury Report: Salary cap from injuries this season

[Canada4Gold]

Ok so basically we’re looking at a lineup like below assuming all our healthy at some point this year(even Mikheyev for playoffs)

Hyman-Matthews-Marner
Kerfoot-JT-Nylander
AJ-Engvall-Kappy
Mikheyev-Spezza-Moore
X-GOAT

Reilly-Barrie
Muzzin-Holl
Dermott-Ceci

Andersen
Hutch

Would above work?

There's no cap for the playoffs so that's irrelevant. I'm not 100% sure but if Mikhevev was healthy before the season ended I'm not sure if we have enough to keep Engvall and a 21 man roster, it's close. But I don't expect Mikheyev back before the end of the year so I don't think that matters. Remove Mikheyev, and insert Timashov and it's definitely fine.

 

[leburn98]

While it doesn't buy the Leafs cap space, it does buy the Leafs time to access their roster and a possible trade for when/if all are healthy. Just prior to Hyman and Dermott coming back, everyone expected that the Leafs were going to be forced to jettison a lower tier guys to make everything fit. This hasn't been the case due to injuries and what it has done is allowed the Leafs to experiment and try some of the Marlies (Engvall, Timashov, Brooks, Marchment) to see if there could be a fit. Injuries have been a blessing in disguise to some degree.

 

[mouser]

Knowing that is the way it is makes me wonder why Dubas hasn't acquired the LTIR salary of a guy that's not voming back and that way he can replace him on the roster with a deadline deal.

It's greasy but doable.

The Hawks did it with Kane during a cup run, they kept him on LTIR until the playoffs and bought at the deadline

That doesn't work. The Leafs have to fit in the LTIR player's salary before using LTIR to replace him. It's a zero sum game--no deadline cap space created.

 

[nuck]

So with $10M in LTIR not available next season how bad will the Leafs situation be? Ceci and Barrie are gone so if they are lucky there is a fat enough cap increase to get them back to that $10M but they have Holls raise, maybe Muzzin, plus Dermott and Engvall to re-up. Seems like 100% chance there is no return of AJ but they also can't take any salary back then. Looks like they really need to find another LTIR deal.

 

[crump]

So with $10M in LTIR not available next season how bad will the Leafs situation be? Ceci and Barrie are gone so if they are lucky there is a fat enough cap increase to get them back to that $10M but they have Holls raise, maybe Muzzin, plus Dermott and Engvall to re-up. Seems like 100% chance there is no return of AJ but they also can't take any salary back then. Looks like they really need to find another LTIR deal.

Next season...Not sure if either Muzzin or Barrie will be back. Leafs will probably depend on Sandin and Liljegren being ready...not outside the realm of probability. Sign Dermott to a bridge deal and a few RFA forwards like Mikheyev, Engvall to 2 or 3 year cheaper deals ...RFA's like Brooks Gauthier can probably fill out the 12/13 forward spot for league minimums...backup should be league minimum as well should be alright, even if the cap doesn't move.

Players like Timashov can be added to deadline deals

You have Korshov, knocking at the door for 4th line spots you could move Mikheyev and Engvall up the roster and trade Johnsson and/or Kapanen for picks or a shutdown #4 D hopefully on a decent contract.

Lots of possibilities.

 

[mouser]

So with $10M in LTIR not available next season how bad will the Leafs situation be? Ceci and Barrie are gone so if they are lucky there is a fat enough cap increase to get them back to that $10M but they have Holls raise, maybe Muzzin, plus Dermott and Engvall to re-up. Seems like 100% chance there is no return of AJ but they also can't take any salary back then. Looks like they really need to find another LTIR deal.

If you think they need another LTIR deal then you're not really understanding how this works. Yes, $10.5m in LTIR is gone next season, but so are $10.5m in Horton/Clarkson contracts. If the Leafs had their choice neither Horton nor Clarkson would be on the team this season.

 

[kb]

So with $10M in LTIR not available next season how bad will the Leafs situation be? Ceci and Barrie are gone so if they are lucky there is a fat enough cap increase to get them back to that $10M but they have Holls raise, maybe Muzzin, plus Dermott and Engvall to re-up. Seems like 100% chance there is no return of AJ but they also can't take any salary back then. Looks like they really need to find another LTIR deal.

This is absolutely not how things work.

 

[nuck]

If you think they need another LTIR deal then you're not really understanding how this works. Yes, $10.5m in LTIR is gone next season, but so are $10.5m in Horton/Clarkson contracts. If the Leafs had their choice neither Horton nor Clarkson would be on the team this season.

You are correct which is kind of why I threw this out there. I assumed the reason for a club taking on the LTIR was that these salaries did not count against the cap, but allowed a replacement salary to be paid until the LTIR player was able to return. So you can't afford say, Mitch when the season begins but you add Clarkson, basically paying Mitch with the extra cap potential from the deal, understanding that if Clarkson somehow came off LTIR his cap burden becomes active again so you lose both the gain to pay the replacement, and the cap exemption of Clarkson.

I figured the LTIR contracts cost actual money but not actual cap space so long as you spend the money on a replacement, so when the deals come off the club is $10.5M richer but they lose that much "virtual" room in what they can spend. Otherwise why bother with the $10.5M financial obligation? If they need that $10M this season why not next season?

 

[kb]

You are correct which is kind of why I threw this out there. I assumed the reason for a club taking on the LTIR was that these salaries did not count against the cap, but allowed a replacement salary to be paid until the LTIR player was able to return. So you can't afford say, Mitch when the season begins but you add Clarkson, basically paying Mitch with the extra cap gains from the deal, understanding that if Clarkson somehow came off LTIR his cap use becomes active again so you lose both the gain to pay the replacement, and the cap exemption of Clarkson.

I figured the LTIR contracts cost actual money but not actual cap space so long as you spend the money on a replacement, so when the deals come off the club is $10.5M richer but they lose that much "virtual" room in what they can spend. Otherwise why bother with the $10.5M financial obligation? If they need that $10M this season why not next season?

They need that $10.5 because they have Horton and Clarkson counting against the cap this season.

And the way LTIR works, the Leafs needed to be as close to the cap ceiling as possible on opening day, so they would get the maximum amount of relief when Horton and Clarkson were placed on LTIR (Horton and Clarkson both counting towards the cap). Once that happened, the Leafs had the space to add Marner. But if they only had Horton, they would have still needed to get to the cap ceiling to get maximum LTIR benefit, but the LTIR only would have equalled Horton's salary. So Marner would not have fit under this scenario. The Clarkson contract was picked up solely to help the team get as close as possible to the cap ceiling, and then both he and Horton were placed on LTIR, opening room for Marner.

 

[mouser]

You are correct which is kind of why I threw this out there. I assumed the reason for a club taking on the LTIR was that these salaries did not count against the cap, but allowed a replacement salary to be paid until the LTIR player was able to return. So you can't afford say, Mitch when the season begins but you add Clarkson, basically paying Mitch with the extra cap potential from the deal, understanding that if Clarkson somehow came off LTIR his cap burden becomes active again so you lose both the gain to pay the replacement, and the cap exemption of Clarkson.

I figured the LTIR contracts cost actual money but not actual cap space so long as you spend the money on a replacement, so when the deals come off the club is $10.5M richer but they lose that much "virtual" room in what they can spend. Otherwise why bother with the $10.5M financial obligation? If they need that $10M this season why not next season?

They didn't necessarily need the $10m in LTIR this season. Rather then acquire Clarkson the team could have instead traded away Horton. However it would have certainly been far more expensive to trade away Horton then to take on Clarkson.

It has to do with how LTIR relief works. There's no benefit to using LTIR on a player if the team has Payroll Room that is larger then the injured player's contract. It can also be difficult to use LTIR on a smaller contract (Horton $5.3m) to fit in a much larger contract (Marner $10.9m), because the team will usually need to have a combination of Payroll Room and LTIR to fit that large contract in--but if the team has Payroll Room then the LTIR relief is smaller.

 

[Canada4Gold]

They didn't necessarily need the $10m in LTIR this season. Rather then acquire Clarkson the team could have instead traded away Horton. However it would have certainly been far more expensive to trade away Horton then to take on Clarkson.

It has to do with how LTIR relief works. There's no benefit to using LTIR on a player if the team has Payroll Room that is larger then the injured player's contract. It can also be difficult to use LTIR on a smaller contract (Horton $5.3m) to fit in a much larger contract (Marner $10.9m), because the team will usually need to have a combination of Payroll Room and LTIR to fit that large contract in--but if the team has Payroll Room then the LTIR relief is smaller.

You need to teach a HFboards course on LTIR. So many people misunderstand it, especially on the Leafs board that I've given up trying to explain it.

A couple weeks back I tried to give as basic of an example as I could. LTIR and cap space is like giving a child an allowance. Say the child gets 20 dollars every week. If you manouver it absolutely perfectly it would be like telling the child ok you get 25 dollars this week, but have to pay 5 of that to charity, and any extra money you have left over at the end of the week you don't get to keep for later in the year(don't accrue). In reality it's almost impossible to make it perfectly so there's a small net loss of some money in there usually. You get 24.85 and have to pay 5 to charity rather than 20.

Your cap is theoretically higher, but any gained is used by the injured guy and usually more on top of that. But it's often explained in simplicity as LTIR'd guys don't count, as it's essentially a 0 sum game. Tack that on to the LTIR increase your ceiling actual explanation and people combine the 2 for some reason and believe it makes your ceiling bigger and that player also doesn't count.

 

[Antropovsky]

Question answered. Lock it up!

Just curious why @BoredBrandonPridham and not boredkyledubas...brendan shanahan or someone more relevant?

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

Just curious why @BoredBrandonPridham and not boredkyledubas...brendan shanahan or someone more relevant?

brandon pridham works the cap and I discuss quite a bit of the cap

 

[mouser]

You need to teach a HFboards course on LTIR. So many people misunderstand it, especially on the Leafs board that I've given up trying to explain it.

A couple weeks back I tried to give as basic of an example as I could. LTIR and cap space is like giving a child an allowance. Say the child gets 20 dollars every week. If you manouver it absolutely perfectly it would be like telling the child ok you get 25 dollars this week, but have to pay 5 of that to charity, and any extra money you have left over at the end of the week you don't get to keep for later in the year(don't accrue). In reality it's almost impossible to make it perfectly so there's a small net loss of some money in there usually. You get 24.85 and have to pay 5 to charity rather than 20.

Your cap is theoretically higher, but any gained is used by the injured guy and usually more on top of that. But it's often explained in simplicity as LTIR'd guys don't count, as it's essentially a 0 sum game. Tack that on to the LTIR increase your ceiling actual explanation and people combine the 2 for some reason and believe it makes your ceiling bigger and that player also doesn't count.

I usually simplify it down to: No matter how much salary (AAV) a team has in LTIR the team still can't spend more then the cap limit ($81.5m) on the active roster. All the salary/AAV above that limit is going to players on LTIR that aren't contributing on ice.