Salary calculations

[Toronto_AGM_Adil]

I think this is just bs. The rules don't say there's a checkpoint after the deadline, and the "exception" says that the waiver claims that put a team over the cap should be rejected. Neither me nor Pasi could really be aware of this rule as it's not in the rulebook and the rulebook has been updated several times since that post was made on the subject last year. (Nulla poena sine lege) There's no reason why we as GM's should have to make searches for possible rule change that hasn't been implemented in the rulebook even if it was talked about briefly a year ago.

I'm sorry Ville that you didn't see the original post, from looking at the payrolls quite a few teams didn't see them either. That being said, a lot of us do see these rule postings and a lot of us do remember to follow them otherwise a lof of us would have been picking up and dropping waiver players as well. Again, keep in mind Hasnain did get penalized last year for an infraction in this regard so there is a precident.

Sean's been working really hard to find all the rule updates and get them in the rulebook but it's a very hard job (I know I've tried to help him) so I don't think we can expect the rule book to be up to date all the time. The system that we've all lived with is that rule updates get posted on the boards and its upto the GM's to keep track of these rulings... I'm not saying this is a perfect system but it's the system that we've all lived in since I joined this league, so I don't see how you can argue the validity of the rule.

Maybe the lesson from all this is that we need to start putting rulings in one specific place (maybe a sticky thread?) and then we can go ahead and update the rules from that thread... either way, as far as I can tell if a post is up with a ruling explicitly made to close a loophole in the rules it should be enforced not ignored.

 

[Brock]

I don't see why anyone would assume they'd be allowed to exceed the salary cap without being penalized.

That's pretty much where I stand. There is a reason we have a hard cap in place and we as a league should intend to enforce. Just because the last checkpoint listed says the trade deadline, doesn't mean that you can stack your team up with salaries after that deadline and hope that no one catches it.

 

[Wildman]

We all knew that there was rule in place for teams to maintain the hard cap of $44M. The question here is whether we should count the added salary towards the cap after three rounds of calculation. I think that this question should be addressed by the admin team.

Last season I was penalized for dropping below 70 OV and the penalty included that I could not participate in lottery pick draw. The justification that was given to me was that the 70 OV should be maintain at all times. So I don't see why the cap rule should be anything different since the OV is counted along with the Cap.

I am sure Ville and Pasi were aware that their payroll was over the Cap and if they were in doubt of the rule than they should have addressed the issue with the Admin team before making the waiver claim. If this was done due to misunderstanding than maybe we can bring this rule next season.

I know I have been impacted by them picking up the waiver players cause I have their 1st round pick although I can't say for sure if these moves have actually improved their team performance.

 

[Dryden]

It is a difficult decision, but I'd have to agree with both you and Adil. Penalties should be applied.

I have to agree also since I was the only victim last year.

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

i think its pretty obvious that at no time can a team exceed the hard salary cap. failure to apply this basic logic should result in the penalties.

as well, it shouldnt be a penalty that allows you to stay over the cap, the team should still have to make immediate remedy to get under the cap.

just my opinion.

 

[Ville Isopaa]

I am sure Ville and Pasi were aware that their payroll was over the Cap and if they were in doubt of the rule than they should have addressed the issue with the Admin team before making the waiver claim. If this was done due to misunderstanding than maybe we can bring this rule next season.

As the rules on cap calculation is that there are 3 checkpoints and the 3rd was the deadline, there was no reason why I would think I was over the cap. And as I said, if the change that was made to the rule last spring would be implemented now, it should be implemented fully, leading to the waiverclaims being voided and the players would go back to their old teams.

Also, as the time frame for waiver claims is 48 hours, there is usually no time to get a reply on a question to the admins. Especially with different timezones, etc.

 

[Brock]

As the rules on cap calculation is that there are 3 checkpoints and the 3rd was the deadline, there was no reason why I would think I was over the cap.

Ville, I don't want to chastise you too hard here, but this explanation doesn't really make sense to me. From you saying that, it sounds as if you don't keep track of your teams salary cap situation. To not know that Bobby Holik's 3 mil + salary would put your team over the cap suggests some form of recklessness and disorganization on your part. And that doesn't sound like you. I'm guessing you would have kept this information prior to the deadline, since you claim you believed the last checkpoint to in fact be the deadline. So why stop calculating your salary cap after the deadline? The only reason I can come up with from your explanation is that you believed that after the deadline the salary cap would not matter. To me, it is slightly ludicrous to believe that in the last 2 months of the season that salary cap would just dissolve and teams would be able to load up via the waiver wire without penalty.

BTW, I'm not even sure your team would be the biggest offender of the cap. While I haven't done any exact calculations, the Hurricanes pro payroll is 3 million greater than yours at $54,437,500. I'd have a hard time believing that they are under the cap and I'm pretty sure they have made some waiver claims as well post deadline.

Just my two cents.

 

[Brock]

BTW, I'm not even sure your team would be the biggest offender of the cap. While I haven't done any exact calculations, the Hurricanes pro payroll is 3 million greater than yours at $54,437,500. I'd have a hard time believing that they are under the cap and I'm pretty sure they have made some waiver claims as well post deadline.

Just my two cents.

Ok, I actually decided to do the calculation for the Hurricanes because curiousity got the best of me.

According to my calculations (Adil can double check), the Hurricanes number towards the salary cap is $49,387,500. That puts them 5 million over the hard cap! That comes with a penalty of a 1st and 2nd round draft pick.

So while the main focus of this thread so far has been 'attacking' Ville and Pasi, if Ville and Pasi are only a million over by calculation, they shouldn't be our main targets here as the Canes are WAY over the cap.

 

[PasiK]

And I didnt have a clue of such kind of rule and I think Carolina GM started in HFNHL same time with me, so this might be new also for him?

I didnt know that I have to search rules from forum .. I read only Rules!

 

[Toronto_AGM_Adil]

And as I said, if the change that was made to the rule last spring would be implemented now, it should be implemented fully, leading to the waiverclaims being voided and the players would go back to their old teams.

I'm sorry Ville but I can't agree with you on this... you've dressed Holik for a bunch of games already so its not like you can go and reverse this by pretending the waiver never happened.

Regardless of what Brock or I think, at the end of the day its upto the admin team to judge on your case of "no harm, no foul" before deciding if a penalty applies.

Regarding Dion, quick calculation shows his salary cap is at 49.4M, with his 1st two checkpoints (44.2M and 43.9M) he's 1.8M over the cap which is a 3rd round pick.

 

[Toronto_AGM_Adil]

And I didnt have a clue of such kind of rule and I think Carolina GM started in HFNHL same time with me, so this might be new also for him?

I didnt know that I have to search rules from forum .. I read only Rules!

Pasi, Dion left the league last summer and rejoined recently... he's been in the League for longer then I have.

I think you should definitly make a case with the admin team that you did not know this rule since it was a post befor you joined and you were going by the rulebook.

 

[Brock]

Pasi, Dion left the league last summer and rejoined recently... he's been in the League for longer then I have.

I think you should definitly make a case with the admin team that you did not know this rule since it was a post befor you joined and you were going by the rulebook.

But in all honesty here Adil, how great of a case can that make?

I would have pretty much assumed that some of the stuff that is happening here would have been common sense. Why wouldn't waiver players count towards the cap? You are picking them up with the intention of playing them in your line up, so thus they should be treated the same way as any other player and count towards the cap. Personally, I would have deemed that somewhat common sense and a rule on it not really necessary. Assuming that they wouldn't count towards your salary cap is as silly as thinking players you acquire via trade would not count either.

I do feel for Pasi because he's the "new" guy here and rule was formally introduced via a post here. But if we punish the Avs and Canes (or any other team over for that matter), the Sharks have to receive punishment as well to be fair.

 

[Ville Isopaa]

Ok, I actually decided to do the calculation for the Hurricanes because curiousity got the best of me.

According to my calculations (Adil can double check), the Hurricanes number towards the salary cap is $49,387,500. That puts them 5 million over the hard cap! That comes with a penalty of a 1st and 2nd round draft pick.

So while the main focus of this thread so far has been 'attacking' Ville and Pasi, if Ville and Pasi are only a million over by calculation, they shouldn't be our main targets here as the Canes are WAY over the cap.

Actually Holik puts me about 4-500k over the cap. And yes, I knew that the salary would put me over the cap if I had claimed him before the deadline, but since the last checkpoint was the trade deadline, there was no reason for me to belive that this addition of Holik would count towards the cap for me.

But in all honesty here Adil, how great of a case can that make?

I would have pretty much assumed that some of the stuff that is happening here would have been common sense. Why wouldn't waiver players count towards the cap? You are picking them up with the intention of playing them in your line up, so thus they should be treated the same way as any other player and count towards the cap. Personally, I would have deemed that somewhat common sense and a rule on it not really necessary. Assuming that they wouldn't count towards your salary cap is as silly as thinking players you acquire via trade would not count either.

I do feel for Pasi because he's the "new" guy here and rule was formally introduced via a post here. But if we punish the Avs and Canes (or any other team over for that matter), the Sharks have to receive punishment as well to be fair.

In all honesty, there is no reason to think that waiver players count towards the cap after the final checkpoint. Since there isn't a checkpoint after the waivers, why would you think that the salary would count towards the cap? I don't see how you can claim that it would be "common sense" to assume something else than what you can find in the rulebook or in the active thread about the salary cap/calculations.

 

[PasiK]

Someone should have said something about this rule .. earlier!

now i cant take back my actions anymore and might suffer a penalty because rule book wasnt updated!

even it will be late pick it will still bite my team future

 

[Toronto_AGM_Adil]

I do feel for Pasi because he's the "new" guy here and rule was formally introduced via a post here. But if we punish the Avs and Canes (or any other team over for that matter), the Sharks have to receive punishment as well to be fair.

I don't know Brock, I think since the rule was introduced as a post Pasi had no real way of seeing it. I agree that the spirit of the rule was definitly broken, and I'm sure all three teams realized they were expoliting a loophole in the rules... In Pasi's case it's so easy to see both sides of the argument that I think it would be in his interest to make the case to the admin team when their making the decision.

 

[Brock]

Actually Holik puts me about 4-500k over the cap. And yes, I knew that the salary would put me over the cap if I had claimed him before the deadline, but since the last checkpoint was the trade deadline, there was no reason for me to belive that this addition of Holik would count towards the cap for me

In all honesty, there is no reason to think that waiver players count towards the cap after the final checkpoint. Since there isn't a checkpoint after the waivers, why would you think that the salary would count towards the cap? I don't see how you can claim that it would be "common sense" to assume something else than what you can find in the rulebook or in the active thread about the salary cap/calculations.

Then what's to stop a team from claiming 6 waiver players and going 15 mil over the salary cap in an effort to gain an advantage in the playoffs? That is absolutely rediculous reasoning to me.

I just can't accept any explanation that involves the belief that after the trade deadline, the cap would simply cease to exist. Why even have a cap if it's only going to be functioning for two thirds of the season?

Now, you are making it sound like you knew Holik would put you over the cap. But you did it anyway because, hey there isn't another checkpoint so maybe no one will notice. I'm sorry Ville, but this doesn't fly for me.

 

[Dryden]

It was said to me last year that if I had a question about the cap or a rule I should have asked before hand. I didn't and I paid the penalty despite getting my salary below the cap. These teams assumed that the deadline was over and they were in the clear to add as much salary as they wanted. They've since been called out for it and should in fact pay the penalty if in fact they are now over the cap. If the rules are not going to be enforced I want my pick from last year back.

 

[Toronto_AGM_Adil]

In all honesty, there is no reason to think that waiver players count towards the cap after the final checkpoint. Since there isn't a checkpoint after the waivers, why would you think that the salary would count towards the cap? I don't see how you can claim that it would be "common sense" to assume something else than what you can find in the rulebook or in the active thread about the salary cap/calculations.

Rules get posted in threads all the time, this one was a post Drew made last year, it wasn't embedded in another tread and looked like a lot of other rule posts... you can't say that notification wasn't given that picking up waived players after the last checkpoint was a loophole and that the loophole would be closed for next season.... as far as I can tell there were infractions on the cap last year and the admin team let them go since there was a case for the loophole and therefore they implemented a new rule for 2007/2008... delaying the implemenation of closing the loophole till 08/09 makes no sense.

Here's what the rule book states:

"As the Sim does not accurately capture average game expenses during the
season (only shows current game expenses are shown) the following method
will be used to calculate cap adherence:"

My opinion on that statement is that the salary cap is a yearly average of all games played but since that number is not available 3 checkpoints are used.... clearly picking up waived players is against the spirit of the rule and hence drew's post on the subject last year. These two in conjunction should have been ample warning...

 

[Brock]

I'm sure all three teams realized they were expoliting a loophole in the rules.

That's the problem with this whole situation right there. The exploitation of a loophole. It's all quite dishonest and sneaky if you ask me. Like I just said in response to Ville. It's really starting to seem like to me that some GM's were thinking, "ok, if i pick up this guy off waivers it's gonna put me over the cap. But it says in the rulebook that the last checkpoint was the trade deadline. Ok so maybe I can get away with it. And if i get caught, I'm just gonna plead ignorance."

It's all a little sneaky for me.

I know you are trying to be the nice guy here Adil (well cause you are a nice guy), but I'm seing all this little sneakyness as a backhand to the GM's who are following the rules and as trying to get ahead by breaking the rules.

However, I do agree with you in Pasi's case to an extent. If he gets penalized, it sounds like its only going to be a 4th rounder or something anyway. I understand where he is coming from and the case you outlined is probably his best plea to the admin team.

BTW, where is the admin team in this discussion. I understand if the discussion is being held behind more closed doors than an open forum, but I'm curious on the stance of some of the members in relation to this argument.

 

[Brock]

It was said to me last year that if I had a question about the cap or a rule I should have asked before hand. I didn't and I paid the penalty despite getting my salary below the cap. These teams assumed that the deadline was over and they were in the clear to add as much salary as they wanted. They've since been called out for it and should in fact pay the penalty if in fact they are now over the cap. If the rules are not going to be enforced I want my pick from last year back.

Exactly. You and Hasnain received punishment last season for offenses similar. We have to be consistent.

 

[Brock]

the salary cap is a yearly average of all games played ...

Key word = Yearly. Not two thirds. This should halt any argument right there. Well said Adil.

 

[PasiK]

Key word = Yearly. Not two thirds. This should halt any argument right there. Well said Adil.

Well iI did my moves according to current 3 checkpoints!

and my yearly payroll was under cap then. If the last checkpoint day will be changed afterwards ... that just aint fair

But I wait big guys decision

and I asked from someone (dont remember who was it) when is the last checkpoint done and can i sign players from waiver list without getting penalty anymore ..

 

[Ville Isopaa]

bottom line is that the "rule change" that wasn't added to the rulebook was:

"Following the final salary cap measurement of any year, any waiver claims that would put a team over the salary cap (based on year end average) will be declined."

It says that the claim will be declined. It doesn't say that it would count towards the cap. Therefore the only action taken here when the cap hits haven't been checked or haven't been noticed in the waiverclaim-process is that the claimed players go back to their old teams. Holik and Gauthier to Tampa, Matvichuk to Anaheim. Don't know who Dion claimed.

I'd also propose to change the rule to a strict player movement freeze between teams after the deadline.

 

[Hossa]

I may be wrong, but I think we've got everything we are going to get out of this thread in terms of figuring out what happened. Clearly there was a loophole that when exploited run counter to the spirit of the cap system, and subsequently it was shut. We also have at least one GM (Ville) who has essentially admitted to exploiting the loophole, not knowing it was shut, so intent has been determined. I would venture to assume that the admin team isn't going to be too sympathetic to the "i didn't know there was a rule" argument.

So anyways, I think we now need to resolve this situation as quickly as possible. Personally I think there should be two measures taken: penalties and removal of the players. Obviously if a rule is broken, if the cap is exceeded, there should be penalty, whether it's a draft pick or whatever. What the penalty is and how harsh it is, that's not my decision. I also think it's important to remove these players from the roster, whether it's by re-waiving them or whatever. We can't undo what has been simmed, but a lot of teams have been affected by the play of the Hurricanes, Avalanche and Sharks and that should cease immediately. These players should never have been allowed to play for these teams anyways, so reversing that mistake is the second consequence I would suggest.

 

[Toronto_AGM_Adil]

bottom line is that the "rule change" that wasn't added to the rulebook was:

"Following the final salary cap measurement of any year, any waiver claims that would put a team over the salary cap (based on year end average) will be declined."

It says that the claim will be declined. It doesn't say that it would count towards the cap. Therefore the only action taken here when the cap hits haven't been checked or haven't been noticed in the waiverclaim-process is that the claimed players go back to their old teams. Holik and Gauthier to Tampa, Matvichuk to Anaheim. Don't know who Dion claimed.

This is a pretty weak argument Ville, the fact that the league allowed you to claim these players shouldn't let you off the hook... That's like saying you shouldn't be penalized because you weren't caught right away.

Anyways the point is moot if Dryden was penalized last year for the same infraction... that alone would require either Dryden compensated or the penalty carried out to you, Dion and perhaps Pasi... I seriously don't see the admin team reversing the decision they made last year on Dryden but either way it's up them to figure this out so I'm in agreement with Sean that we've gotten as far as we can go with this thread and we might as well just wait for the admin team to come to a decision.

I'd also propose to change the rule to a strict player movement freeze between teams after the deadline.

This is a very good idea as well and it sure would simplify things but I think this might open up the waiver system to more abuse. Teams who have guaranteed playoff spots might start putting big salaries in the minors to save cash with no waiver consequences and then recall such players right before playoffs. Maybe we're just better off changing the rule so that it's the onus of the GM to stay below the cap after waivers, not the League, when they make waiver claims.