TBN: Sabres to alter ticket pricing model, increase prices

buffalowing88

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Aug 11, 2008
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At some point, this team will end up in Hamilton, Texas or Quebec City under this ownership.

Where in Texas? San Antonio? Houston? I don't foresee that. The market just isn't there in terms of people who would get season tickets.

Quebec City is going to get an expansion team. If not, they'll get the Coyotes. We aren't going there.

Hamilton is an interesting possibility, though. I don't think the average follower realizes how sizable of a market they represent. Fortunately, I don't think the Pegula's are all that interested in that market because they do carry some prominence by keeping the team in Buffalo. The Bills are clearly their main priority and it's remarkable how well they've done building up a great management team with that franchise. The Sabres are just the tax to keep up support for their ownership in the NFL and while I don't care what happens to this team at this point, I don't think they would risk the negative PR that comes from moving the team or selling it to Hamilton.

If another team were to come there, however, that would be interesting because we could lose a lot of revenue from that fanbase...
 

HogtownSabresfan

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Jan 13, 2010
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Where in Texas? San Antonio? Houston? I don't foresee that. The market just isn't there in terms of people who would get season tickets.

Quebec City is going to get an expansion team. If not, they'll get the Coyotes. We aren't going there.

Hamilton is an interesting possibility, though. I don't think the average follower realizes how sizable of a market they represent. Fortunately, I don't think the Pegula's are all that interested in that market because they do carry some prominence by keeping the team in Buffalo. The Bills are clearly their main priority and it's remarkable how well they've done building up a great management team with that franchise. The Sabres are just the tax to keep up support for their ownership in the NFL and while I don't care what happens to this team at this point, I don't think they would risk the negative PR that comes from moving the team or selling it to Hamilton.

If another team were to come there, however, that would be interesting because we could lose a lot of revenue from that fanbase...

Other than the rink, which really isn’t that much worse Buffalo’s, Hamilton would easily support hockey better than Buffalo. It’s not really close. There is just so much more wealth than in Buffalo, sorry to say. It’s basically a Toronto suburb. And the 407 highway (albeit a toll) can take people in the north end and west-end of metro region to Hamilton faster than downtown Toronto. It’s a 45 minute trip from Richmond Hill/Markham via the tolled highly.

You are right though. Pegula will not allow it. And NHL will never allow a team in Hamilton whole Buffalo is in the league. The Sabres are destroyed by a team in Hamilton, they couldn’t compete.

Houston will get a team. No question. It’s booming in Texas and the NHL wants to be on the city. Ottawa could be the team, if fans don’t start showing up.

Quebec City can support hockey like the Winnipeg model but it’ll be a worst destination than any other play in the league — language, taxes and extreme North. French Canadians probably won’t want to play there either. Ownership group is probably not to Bettman’s liking. TV contract for Quebec probably wouldn’t add enough to make it worthwhile — maybe another 2 million fans albeit hardcore.

I was half joking about Sabres moving but Pegula doesn’t like to lose money contrary to his dog another well BS. He squeeze every $$$$ out of the team.

If they dipped below 10,000 STHers, all bets are off
 
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buffalowing88

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Other than the rink, which really isn’t that much worse Buffalo’s, Hamilton would easily support hockey better than Buffalo. It’s not really close. There is just so much more wealth than in Buffalo, sorry to say. It’s basically a Toronto suburb. And the 407 highway (albeit a toll) can take people in the north end and west-end of metro region to Hamilton faster than downtown Toronto. It’s a 45 minute trip from Richmond Hill/Markham via the tolled highly.

You are right though. Pegula will not allow it. And NHL will never allow a team in Hamilton whole Buffalo is in the league. The Sabres are destroyed by a team in Hamilton, they couldn’t compete.

Houston will get a team. No question. It’s booming in Texas and the NHL wants to be on the city. Ottawa could be the team, if fans don’t start showing up.

Quebec City can support hockey like the Winnipeg model but it’ll be a worst destination than any other play in the league — language, taxes and extreme North. French Canadians probably won’t want to play there either. Ownership group is probably not to Bettman’s liking. TV contract for Quebec probably wouldn’t add enough to make it worthwhile — maybe another 2 million fans albeit hardcore.

I was half joking about Sabres moving but Pegula doesn’t like to lose money contrary to his dog another well BS. He squeeze every $$$$ out of the team.

If they dipped below 10,000 STHers, all bets are off

Really insightful post! Thanks for the informed response. I think you're spot on with everything when it comes to Hamilton. I also think it's the ugliest city of all the potential venues, however, and selling it would have to revolve around calling it Toronto 2.0.

Houston probably will get a team, as you said, but they aren't going to have a good showcase for fans. The Astros/Texans/Rockets dominate that market. The NHL has shown a reluctance to getting into saturated markets (sans Seattle, which was in the works for many years to begin with and which has a large hockey following to begin with). I wonder if that's the best place for a team to go. Ottawa would make sense, though.

And, lastly, yeah Quebec City is a bit too small to normally compete, but if Winnipeg can get a team, who knows. I'm curious why you think that French Candians wouldn't play there, though? I'm not entirely well-versed on the city so I'm probably just missing something but otherwise I assume that would have made sense.
 

HogtownSabresfan

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Jan 13, 2010
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Really insightful post! Thanks for the informed response. I think you're spot on with everything when it comes to Hamilton. I also think it's the ugliest city of all the potential venues, however, and selling it would have to revolve around calling it Toronto 2.0.

Houston probably will get a team, as you said, but they aren't going to have a good showcase for fans. The Astros/Texans/Rockets dominate that market. The NHL has shown a reluctance to getting into saturated markets (sans Seattle, which was in the works for many years to begin with and which has a large hockey following to begin with). I wonder if that's the best place for a team to go. Ottawa would make sense, though.

And, lastly, yeah Quebec City is a bit too small to normally compete, but if Winnipeg can get a team, who knows. I'm curious why you think that French Candians wouldn't play there, though? I'm not entirely well-versed on the city so I'm probably just missing something but otherwise I assume that would have made sense.

French Canadian stars don’t even want to play in Montreal. For starters, the top tax rate is 53.3% in the province — major issue few talk about.

There’s a lot of pressure to play in your home province of French. It’s massive, almost like Toronto boys who haven’t wanted to come home in their prime. (Tavares the exception)

Quebec City is freaking cold. Very cold. Edmonton-like. It’s also far. Spouses of players have an impact on these things and it’s two flights away from anywhere.

Hamilton isn’t as ugly as you say — the view from the QEW is vile. I agree on that. There are nice parts of the city. Also, Hamilton isn’t even just Hamilton anymore. People live in Grimsby and commute. That’s why a Hamilton would kill Sabres — it would bleed into the 20% of season ticket holders crossing border.

(I live in Toronto and I signed up for seasons when Hamilton was looking to sell tickets for an NHL team. They asked for a $500 deposit and 10,000 signed up in a day. Boxes all sold out too..)
 

SackTastic

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French Canadian stars don’t even want to play in Montreal. For starters, the top tax rate is 53.3% in the province — major issue few talk about.

There’s a lot of pressure to play in your home province of French. It’s massive, almost like Toronto boys who haven’t wanted to come home in their prime. (Tavares the exception)

Quebec City is freaking cold. Very cold. Edmonton-like. It’s also far. Spouses of players have an impact on these things and it’s two flights away from anywhere.

Hamilton isn’t as ugly as you say — the view from the QEW is vile. I agree on that. There are nice parts of the city. Also, Hamilton isn’t even just Hamilton anymore. People live in Grimsby and commute. That’s why a Hamilton would kill Sabres — it would bleed into the 20% of season ticket holders crossing border.

(I live in Toronto and I signed up for seasons when Hamilton was looking to sell tickets for an NHL team. They asked for a $500 deposit and 10,000 signed up in a day. Boxes all sold out too..)

1. Toronto and Buffalo collectively were opposed to Hamilton getting a franchise.
2. Jim Balsillie wasn't going to put an NHL team in Copps unless the arena got about $150M CAD in upgrades.
3. I agree that the Hamilton metropolitan area could likely support a franchise should one go there. However I don't think $500 refundable deposits are really proof of that.
4. I highly doubt the Sabres pull much of a Canadian fan base past St. Catherines today. There are what, 30k people in Grismby? NF, NY is a complete dump and there's still more than 50K here.
5. I also agree that Hamilton is a much nicer city that it's given credit for. But Hamilton / Burlington / Grimsby , population wise, is just slightly more than half of the Buffalo-Niagara census area, and the media incomes of the two are basically identical when you account for the exchange rate.

Hamilton is a nice place. But there is no way in hell that the Pegulas are going to move the Sabres there. Ever. All stop.
 
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tsujimoto74

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May 28, 2012
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I've yet to see a price comparison of going to a Sabres game vs The rest of the NHL. Reading through comments Sabres games must be much more expensive. It's not.

VGKcost.png

The ire isn't about the absolute price; it's about the fact that every year the Pegulas keep charging more without ever improving the on-ice product.
 

HogtownSabresfan

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1. Toronto and Buffalo collectively were opposed to Hamilton getting a franchise.
2. Jim Balsillie wasn't going to put an NHL team in Copps unless the arena got about $150M CAD in upgrades.
3. I agree that the Hamilton metropolitan area could likely support a franchise should one go there. However I don't think $500 refundable deposits are really proof of that.
4. I highly doubt the Sabres pull much of a Canadian fan base past St. Catherines today. There are what, 30k people in Grismby? NF, NY is a complete dump and there's still more than 50K here.
5. I also agree that Hamilton is a much nicer city that it's given credit for. But Hamilton / Burlington / Grimsby , population wise, is just slightly more than half of the Buffalo-Niagara census area, and the media incomes of the two are basically identical when you account for the exchange rate.

Hamilton is a nice place. But there is no way in hell that the Pegulas are going to move the Sabres there. Ever. All stop.

1. Leafs were opposed so they could charge more money and keep all local tv rights. Sabres know they can’t survive with a team 45 minutes away.

2. Balsille would have moved the team in two seconds, if he didn’t have to pay any indemnification rights. He tried to get 2nd NHL team in Toronto region super cheap and league said no.

3. You don’t think selling 15,000 seats at $500 in like 48 hours (and all the corporate boxes) proves anything. Really. That’s like 20% of the price of a season ticket on the 300 level in Buffalo.

4. This is just ludicrous. How many games do you go to in person? Sabres already admit 20% of STHers are in Canada. It’s not JUST tiny St. Catherine’s, it’s the whole western region of Canada’s largest city. Even in that tiny city, the average home is selling for about $425,000. I live in Toronto and have season’s and there are lots STHers in Hamilton.
When a Canadian team plays or original six team, or popular team squad like Flyers, the rink is loaded with away team fans. Have you noticed? Those are people who don’t want to pay $300 to sit on 100 level in Toronto.
Look at the crowds for those teams, it’s not just St. Catharine’s/Grimsby people rooting for the away team.
I basically sell most of the Canadian teams to people who have moved to Toronto region from other parts of the country.

5. Hamilton has median household wealth of $75 K CDN, Buffalo is like $37 K US. It’s not close and that’s just Hamilton. The catchment area for Hamilton would extend to Oakville easily which is like 30 KMs and has extreme wealth. For sure, Burlington would be fan base and I’d venture to say Mississauga too — only about 30 miles away.
I love Buffalo but you have no idea if you think the wealth close to what’s going on in Toronto suburbs and that’s what a Hamilton would draw.

If it was a straight business decision, Pegula would be nuts not to move a team there. But it’s not — and I don’t want it to be because Buffalo is great hockey town. It needs a little push from the Canadian side which is part of the franchise’s success.

The way the team is going, that’s how a small market city loses its team. That’s my point. Just poor, poor hockey and a city where disposable income is low. It’s an issue. Pegula is testing tolerance with this product.
 
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SackTastic

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You do a good job cherry picking numbers. 75K CDN = 56,109.75 USD at the current exchange rate. Yes, the CITY OF BUFFALO media income is $31K US. But the median income of the Buffalo Niagara region is $57k.

So in sum, the Buffalo Niagara Metro region has the same income levels as the Hamilton census division with almost twice the population. There is plenty of disposable income in the Buffalo MARKET to support the franchise at the prices they charge. Pegula bought the team in Feb 2011. They made the playoffs that season, and haven't been back since. I got on the season ticket waiting list that day, and it still took FIVE YEARS to get through the list. Sure, they are running that into the ground right now, but the second this team is consistently good again, those renewals will pick back up. You saw it the last two years when they had those streaks; the building was full.

Like I said , Hamilton is a nice city. Between the city proper and the nearby cities between there and Toronto, an NHL team would do well there. But please drop this narrative that Buffalo is some broke ass town. We don't have GTA money, but we sure as hell have Hamilton money.

====

My only point about bringing up the population of Grimsby is that you opened the door!

Also, Hamilton isn’t even just Hamilton anymore. People live in Grimsby and commute. That’s why a Hamilton would kill Sabres — it would bleed into the 20% of season ticket holders crossing border.

The Sabres have capped the season ticket base at 16000 for a number of years now. (I'm sure that level is much lower now, lol.) 20% of that is 3200. I have no way to know, but I would suspect more than 95% of those are coming from Fort Erie/ NF / St Catherines /Welland. You can say St. Catherines is "tiny" ; it's only about 1/3 of the population of the Peninsula. There are a handful at best from Grimsby.
 

Smehlik MyFinger

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Sep 16, 2017
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Houston is the 4th largest city in America, it is next in the queue for a team, most likely a relocation.
Quebec will NEVER get a team again as long as Jeremy Jacobs is on the Board of Governors.
The BoG carries more weight than the Commish and JJ runs the show.
 

MightyMuffins

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Jan 17, 2017
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To me it is clear they use the Sabres to just make $$$. I mean the Pegulas in reality are terrible owners........you have to admit....they got damn lucky with McDermott and Beane cause before that their hiring process was as bad as the Sabres. Happy they kept both teams for us in Buffalo but otherwise they just don't do much. There is a reason why they are so disliked among the fans but it is a careful dance to cause without them both teams would likely leave.

It's obvious they care more about the Bills over the Sabres and it's not even a secret anymore with how less in the open they are. How often you see the Pegulas at a Sabres game here and there over a Bills game.....yeah....exactly. :/
 

jd1970

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Feb 23, 2007
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Other than the rink, which really isn’t that much worse Buffalo’s, Hamilton would easily support hockey better than Buffalo. It’s not really close. There is just so much more wealth than in Buffalo, sorry to say. It’s basically a Toronto suburb. And the 407 highway (albeit a toll) can take people in the north end and west-end of metro region to Hamilton faster than downtown Toronto. It’s a 45 minute trip from Richmond Hill/Markham via the tolled highly.

You are right though. Pegula will not allow it. And NHL will never allow a team in Hamilton whole Buffalo is in the league. The Sabres are destroyed by a team in Hamilton, they couldn’t compete.

Houston will get a team. No question. It’s booming in Texas and the NHL wants to be on the city. Ottawa could be the team, if fans don’t start showing up.

Quebec City can support hockey like the Winnipeg model but it’ll be a worst destination than any other play in the league — language, taxes and extreme North. French Canadians probably won’t want to play there either. Ownership group is probably not to Bettman’s liking. TV contract for Quebec probably wouldn’t add enough to make it worthwhile — maybe another 2 million fans albeit hardcore.

I was half joking about Sabres moving but Pegula doesn’t like to lose money contrary to his dog another well BS. He squeeze every $$$$ out of the team.

If they dipped below 10,000 STHers, all bets are off
The NHL doesn't want more teams in Canada, it wants less.
And for good reason.
 

Royisgone

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Mar 7, 2012
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I’m up 8%. The best part is Sabre bucks get reduced from 2.5% to 2%.

someone needs to tell me again how Golisano was the cheap guy and Pegula would just dig another well when he needed. He’s just drilling into my wallet

This theme has been coming up more and more lately. The idea is that Pegula is showing much more of a concern over profits than he initially suggested he would.

For example, someone suggested that it appears to be Pegula policy now NOT to buy out any contracts, contrary to what he did a lot of in earlier years.

He did throw a lot of money around foolishly in the early years of owning the team, paying people not to work for him.

It seems like he's sort of learned his lesson and he's done with that.

I find the idea of a ticket price hike to be kind of laughable.

Anyone who buys tickets and goes to the games has nothing to complain about.

The perception is that Buffalo is a great hockey town and fans will support the team no matter what. And it's probably correct.

Make it not correct and maybe something will change. I don't know.
 

Royisgone

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Mar 7, 2012
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To me it is clear they use the Sabres to just make $$$. I mean the Pegulas in reality are terrible owners........you have to admit....they got damn lucky with McDermott and Beane cause before that their hiring process was as bad as the Sabres. Happy they kept both teams for us in Buffalo but otherwise they just don't do much. There is a reason why they are so disliked among the fans but it is a careful dance to cause without them both teams would likely leave.

It's obvious they care more about the Bills over the Sabres and it's not even a secret anymore with how less in the open they are. How often you see the Pegulas at a Sabres game here and there over a Bills game.....yeah....exactly. :/

Pegula is obviously a certain type of guy and he must love being in the big dog club--owning an NFL franchise.

Hockey is small potatoes in comparison. Despite the notion that he is a much bigger hockey fan than a football fan, I agree that the Bills get the priority. That's the appearance at least.

I can't believe the Sabres situation would be what it is, and what it has been, if Pegula did not own the Bills.
 

HogtownSabresfan

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Jan 13, 2010
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You do a good job cherry picking numbers. 75K CDN = 56,109.75 USD at the current exchange rate. Yes, the CITY OF BUFFALO media income is $31K US. But the median income of the Buffalo Niagara region is $57k.

So in sum, the Buffalo Niagara Metro region has the same income levels as the Hamilton census division with almost twice the population. There is plenty of disposable income in the Buffalo MARKET to support the franchise at the prices they charge. Pegula bought the team in Feb 2011. They made the playoffs that season, and haven't been back since. I got on the season ticket waiting list that day, and it still took FIVE YEARS to get through the list. Sure, they are running that into the ground right now, but the second this team is consistently good again, those renewals will pick back up. You saw it the last two years when they had those streaks; the building was full.

Like I said , Hamilton is a nice city. Between the city proper and the nearby cities between there and Toronto, an NHL team would do well there. But please drop this narrative that Buffalo is some broke ass town. We don't have GTA money, but we sure as hell have Hamilton money.

====

My only point about bringing up the population of Grimsby is that you opened the door!



The Sabres have capped the season ticket base at 16000 for a number of years now. (I'm sure that level is much lower now, lol.) 20% of that is 3200. I have no way to know, but I would suspect more than 95% of those are coming from Fort Erie/ NF / St Catherines /Welland. You can say St. Catherines is "tiny" ; it's only about 1/3 of the population of the Peninsula. There are a handful at best from Grimsby.

Have you actually been in the western suburbs of Toronto on the other side of Hamilton? Or has it been awhile? The Greater Toronto Hamilton Area is 6.4 million people now. Hamilton isn't just HAMILTON.

You want to use metropolitan area, then throw in Oakville/Burlington/Mississauga. Oakville has household income of well over $100,000 and is not even 30 minutes away. Mississauga is like 50 KMs has 800,000 people. There is a toll highway that stretches across Toronto that connects Vaughan, the richest suburb in the country, to Hamilton in like 45 minutes. You really need to get on the QEW and go for a drive -- it's just one long stretch of development now.

And the 20% season ticket base is filled with people from Hamilton and Burlington. I know dozens of people with tickets there. I'm a rarity in a Toronto proper person having seasons but people stream in from the city for select games all season long to the point that crows for games are full of away fans. (Everybody complains about this.)

Here's the thing about Toronto and the GTA, it's full of people from the rest of the country. I go to about 15 games a year and sell the rest. Leafs are a no brainer to sell, if I want. But so are Winnipeg, Edmonton, Calgary, Montreal and Vancouver. (Ottawa a definite no. Don't ask me why. Senators don't have fans anywhere. LOL) Orginal six teams like Boston, Chicago, Detroit, (when they are not horses*it) and established teams like Pittsburgh, Philadelphia with long histories are an easy sell in Toronto.

The reason is pretty simply. Prices rise for Edmonton but you can sit on the 100-level for a game in Buffalo for $100 and it's probably $250 in Toronto. Have you noticed the crowds at Sabres games for the above teams are usually anywhere from 30% to 40% rooting for the opposition. The Jets game last Sunday was ridiculous. I've never seen that many Winnipeg fans. They didn't drive in from Manitoba, they are all from the Toronto area?

Listen I love Buffalo and making the drive is fun. The city is full of wonderful people. But you are in dreamland thinking it's in the same realm as the western end of the Toronto region, when it comes to wealth and ability to afford tickets.

Buffalo people want to pay $20 for tickets -- I hear that all the time. I get it that the Pegulas have put a bad team out there but NHL hockey doesn't work at ticket levels much cheaper than Buffalo. And the city needs Canadian support to survive.
 
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HogtownSabresfan

Registered User
Jan 13, 2010
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The NHL doesn't want more teams in Canada, it wants less.
And for good reason.

The Rogers NHL TV contract in Canada is worth $5.2 B. Quebec City does little to bump that. It's screwed. Maybe a summer emergency like Atlanta moves a team there but that's it. Another GTA team (Hamilton) can boost the audience but it takes from Leafs locally and they will fight it unless compensation can be worked out. Balsallie didn't want to pay a dime to NHL or Leafs. Ideally, a second NHL team would be put in Markham, northeast of Toronto to protect Buffalo. Plans for a rink there died because public sector wouldn't pay. I don't think anyone believes stadium wouldn't fill every night.
 

hypaspazz

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Jan 27, 2017
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Houston, TX
I'm reasonably sure he said he'd "drill another well", so get Fracking, Terry.
Guess you have not noticed how badly commodity prices are doing this year. Drilling wells loses you money these days..... but I digress. Terry, call up Tillman Fertitta and lets get this team moved down to Houston. We are ready and waiting!
 

OkimLom

Registered User
May 3, 2010
15,122
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To me it is clear they use the Sabres to just make $$$. I mean the Pegulas in reality are terrible owners........you have to admit....they got damn lucky with McDermott and Beane cause before that their hiring process was as bad as the Sabres. Happy they kept both teams for us in Buffalo but otherwise they just don't do much. There is a reason why they are so disliked among the fans but it is a careful dance to cause without them both teams would likely leave.

It's obvious they care more about the Bills over the Sabres and it's not even a secret anymore with how less in the open they are. How often you see the Pegulas at a Sabres game here and there over a Bills game.....yeah....exactly. :/

The moment Ted Black left the organization, is the moment that any ideas to connect and expand into the community died. There's just not a drive in Pegula Sports to get an image going for the Sabres. It honestly feels like it's on a lower level than Bandit games, in terms of creating an atmosphere that makes the games feel like an event. It's the most depressing thing to go to.
 
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