Sabres project $7.4 million loss this season

Status
Not open for further replies.

Buffaloed

webmaster
Feb 27, 2002
43,324
23,585
Niagara Falls
MacDaddy Version 1.3 said:
It's like asking a McDonalds franchise owner in one location to give money to another in a poor location to keep them in business. If a team cannot generate enough revenue on it's own---Goodbye!

McDonalds franchises pay the same costs for the raw materials to produce their product. Franchises in Scarborough don't pay more than those in North York for ground beef to produce all-star patties. In effect they have a cap and it's set so low that it's nearly impossible not to make a profit. The McDonalds franchise system would be analogous to the NHL with a $20 million salary cap. Then there's no need for revenue sharing and everyone would make a profit. Unfortunately players aren't ground beef, although Rob Ray did a pretty good impression of it at times.
 

MacDaddy TLC*

Guest
dawgbone said:
Throw out an exact number...

Would these revenues be enough if they didn't have to try and compete with the Leafs who are shelling out $50+mil in payrolls?



It all starts at the top man. If the Leafs and Rags and Stars and whoever are going to sign guys to big contracts, it trickles down. If they don't do it, other teams don't do it.

There is no exact number. Revenues - Expenses and factor in a little profit for those who own the team.

If you can't afford it don't spend it. It is simple. The Leafs and Rangers can afford to pay the big bucks, they should be able to. The others need to operate within a budget. The haves should not be punished because they can make money and the have nots can't.
 

MacDaddy TLC*

Guest
Buffaloed said:
McDonalds franchises pay the same costs for the raw materials to produce their product. Franchises in Scarborough don't pay more than those in North York for ground beef to produce all-star patties. In effect they have a cap and it's set so low that it's nearly impossible not to make a profit. The McDonalds franchise system would be analogous to the NHL with a $20 million salary cap. Then there's no need for revenue sharing and everyone would make a profit. Unfortunately players aren't ground beef, although Rob Ray did a pretty good impression of it at times.

The point being Toronto makes money hand over fist, fill their building for every game (even during the Ballard era when the fans should have stopped going) and shouldn't be asked or forced to subsidize some yokel who thought NHL should be in ___________ market (I won't name any team in an attempt to not upset the Carolina, Anaheim, etc fans).
 

copperandblue

Registered User
Sep 15, 2003
10,719
0
Visit site
Tom_Benjamin said:

Why should he?


Tom_Benjamin said:
Those profits would not exist for Golisano if the Sabres don't exist.

So what?

He used one business to leverage his way into a second business - sounds like smart business too me.

Once the deal was signed the Sabres likely became a seperate entity from the arena and therefore only related costs should apply.
 

YellHockey*

Guest
dawgbone said:
The way Salaries are going, Chara and Redden will be $10mil players, Hossa will easily get more than that (based on signings like Guerin and that for $9mil), Alfie will probably be a $6-7mil player (he seems to like being in Ottawa, so he'd probably stick around for less). Then add Spezza, who will be a $4mil player (based on contracts like the one Richards got), Havlat's probably another guy who makes about $4mil. And your starting goalie, NHL average is about $2.5 or so per year.

You've got your salary valuations way off.

How are Chara or Redden going to make $10M when there is no one comparable that is within $4M of that figure?

Guerin is not a comparable of Hossa. His contract has no bearing on Hossa's. Iginla is almost a comparable and he's not even over $7M.

Alfredsson has a four year deal that will pay him a little bit over $5M a season. After it's up, he'll probably get less because he'll be far past his prime.

Spezza isn't even close to being a comparable to Richards either. Richards has a freaking Conn Smythe trophy while Spezza has only played one full NHL season. How do players who are three seasons apart in experience even come close to being comparables?

Havlat you're probably not far off on. But he's the only one.
 

dawgbone

Registered User
Jun 24, 2002
21,104
0
MacDaddy Version 1.3 said:
There is no exact number. Revenues - Expenses and factor in a little profit for those who own the team.

If you can't afford it don't spend it. It is simple. The Leafs and Rangers can afford to pay the big bucks, they should be able to. The others need to operate within a budget. The haves should not be punished because they can make money and the have nots can't.

Then like I said, you'll have a 7 team NHL... you might have some other teams who are around, bounce around in different cities, and get sold and re-sold.

You aren't going to find many owners who stick around too much longer to continually be door mats and farm teams for the Rangers and Leafs.
 

dawgbone

Registered User
Jun 24, 2002
21,104
0
BlackRedGold said:
You've got your salary valuations way off.

How are Chara or Redden going to make $10M when there is no one comparable that is within $4M of that figure?

Guerin is not a comparable of Hossa. His contract has no bearing on Hossa's. Iginla is almost a comparable and he's not even over $7M.

He was talking about UFA's. Hossa on the UFA market will command far more than Guerin did. With Pronger and Lidstrom making the money they do, you'd have to figure guys like Chara and Redden, if they continue to develop the way they are, will be looking for the money those guys get as UFA's.

Alfredsson has a four year deal that will pay him a little bit over $5M a season. After it's up, he'll probably get less because he'll be far past his prime.[/quote]

Maybe... I was pegging him for UFA at 33... so if it's older you are probably right.

Spezza isn't even close to being a comparable to Richards either. Richards has a freaking Conn Smythe trophy while Spezza has only played one full NHL season. How do players who are three seasons apart in experience even come close to being comparables?

The contract Richards signed was a 3 year deal that started off in the low $2mil area in year 1, and was over $4mil in year 3. He didn't have a freaking Conn Smythe when he signed his deal, and Spezza is going to have better numbers than him when it's time for him to negotiate his deal (as compared to when Richards signed his).

Like I said, this was all based on the way the NHL was shaping. Guys like Rick Nash were going to be $4+mil players, same with Heatley and Kovalchuk. I think my numbers were fairly realistic, especially considering the time frame we are talking about, which is 4-5 years.
 

Tom_Benjamin

Registered User
Sep 8, 2003
1,152
0
www.canuckscorner.com
Buffaloed said:
The bulk of the financing for constuction of the arena was provided by the Sabres. The arena cost $127.5 million to build. The City of Buffalo contributed $10 million, $20 million came from Erie County, and $25 million from the State. The remaining $72.5 million was privately financed by the Sabres.

Thank you for this information. Thus Golisano got the team for $70 million and the right to the rink revenues for $22.9 million. The rink is profitable and the team loses less money if it doesn't operate. How much sense does that make?

Why didn't he pay Adelphia $70 million for the rink and $22.9 million for the Sabres? Does it matter? Does it matter if the team lost $9 million if the rink makes $20 million? Can Golisano split the corporate revenue, the board advertising and the luxury box revenue any way he wants?

The real issue is "What is the return on Golisano's investment of $93 million?"

Tom
 

YellHockey*

Guest
dawgbone said:
The contract Richards signed was a 3 year deal that started off in the low $2mil area in year 1, and was over $4mil in year 3. He didn't have a freaking Conn Smythe when he signed his deal, and Spezza is going to have better numbers than him when it's time for him to negotiate his deal (as compared to when Richards signed his).

No way in hell he'll have better numbers then Richards when it comes time for his next contract. He's got one year to go on his contract and even if the NHL were playing this year, he'd have to get 122 points to match the 198 points Richards had when he signed his current contract.

Then when Spezza wants to sign the contract after his next one, he'll have a Conn Smythe winning Richards to compare to.
 

dawgbone

Registered User
Jun 24, 2002
21,104
0
BlackRedGold said:
No way in hell he'll have better numbers then Richards when it comes time for his next contract. He's got one year to go on his contract and even if the NHL were playing this year, he'd have to get 122 points to match the 198 points Richards had when he signed his current contract.

Still, do you not think in 4 or 5 years Spezza is going to be making $4-5mil? I mean, he's averaged 5 minutes less per game than Richards, played less games, but has a very similar points per game average as Richards did after 2 seasons. Even if he doesn't get the same contract Richards got, and all he does is get $3mil at the end of year 3, it's still a lot of money, and he's well on his way to that $4-5 mil I projected him at.

Then when Spezza wants to sign the contract after his next one, he'll have a Conn Smythe winning Richards to compare to.

And Richards will be a $7-8mil player, so it doesn't matter. I'm not talking about arbitration comparables, I am talking about guys who have developed and played similarly. So Spezza doesn't get the $4 mil contract in 3 years... the way he is going and the way he has produced with the ice time he has gotten it's pretty easy to guess the numbers he will be putting up offensively over the next few seasons, and thereby the amount of money he will be receiving.
 

NYIsles1*

Guest
MacDaddy Version 1.3 said:
The point being Toronto makes money hand over fist, fill their building for every game (even during the Ballard era when the fans should have stopped going) and shouldn't be asked or forced to subsidize some yokel who thought NHL should be in ___________ market (I won't name any team in an attempt to not upset the Carolina, Anaheim, etc fans).
Toronto made less revenue than Minnesota and Vancouver. Mostly because of their payroll.

This idea that Philadelphia, Rangers, Detroit, Colorado, St Louis, Boston, Chicago or the Kings make revenues that can subsidize the league is just not realistic. On their own most of them are currently losing money and in some cases tens of millions. (Rangers)

Scary that so many go back to eighties or nineties thinking when it comes to professional hockey in the us.....Totally different product and perception.

What revenue do these teams have to share?

Why would anyone think the eighth team in the New York sports market that plays to one fan demographic in front of thousands of empty seats (unlike Philadelphia, Colorado and Detroit) has revenue to share. Rupert Murdoch takes 40 percent of Msg's television profit and for years the Rangers have been in the red.

You think some teams play to empty seats now, wait until they cannot sign free agents and the bills for tickets come in.

Just because Comcast, Cablevision, Little Ceasar's print money does not mean as stand alone businesses these hockey teams are profitable, what it does mean is they drive up the player market and hurt the overall sport.

The Rangers and Islanders could play a seven game war in April and RedSox Yankees will completely dominate the papers and the fans. The days of the Mets leading professional sports in payroll at 39 million are over and so is a level playing field when it comes to the NY sports market.

Hockey? On a level with arena football or the MLS.
 

Buffaloed

webmaster
Feb 27, 2002
43,324
23,585
Niagara Falls
Tom_Benjamin said:
Why didn't he pay Adelphia $70 million for the rink and $22.9 million for the Sabres?

The deal had to be done to satisfy all the creditors, all parties with legal standing, and the NHL. That includes the parties to the arena lease; the City of Buffalo, Erie County, NY State, and several banks. Adelphia wasn't free to split up the package. As it turned out the deal called for $45 million to be paid to Adelphia's creditors and assumption of the $22.9 construction loan, so it was pretty close to $70 million. The remaining $25 million went towards operating losses. The only way to split up the transaction would be to void the lease or liquidate the team. That would have sent the $22.9 million loan to Erie County's books, and permitted relocation of the team. Ultimately the loan would have ended up on Jeremy Jacobs, Delaware North books as they guaranteed the loan in exchange for paying $35 million for concession rights. The NHL was just as opposed to that as the public sector opposed to voiding the lease. It would have been a messy affair tied up in the courts for many years.

Does it matter? Does it matter if the team lost $9 million if the rink makes $20 million?

Would it matter to you if you were running a corporation and one division was losing money? It sure would get my attention. It's hard to see the arena making $20 million on it's events exclusive of Sabres games as over half are Buffalo Bandits (also owned by Golisano) lacrosse games and poorly attended local college basketball games. I'd peg non-hockey revenues at $15 million in a good year, like last year when they hosted the NCAA Final Frozen Four.

Can Golisano split the corporate revenue, the board advertising and the luxury box revenue any way he wants?

I assume he can, but you'd have to contact the writer of the Buffalo News article to see the breakdown on the actual figures. According to the article the Sabres took in $50.2 million. Considering the average ticket price last season was $35.46 and the average attendance was 17,206, we're only looking at $25 million in general ticket revenues. It sure looks like he's reporting all Sabres-related revenues.

The real issue is "What is the return on Golisano's investment of $93 million?"

He also spent $3 million of his own money for arena improvements rather than try to put it on the taxpayers so now we're up to $96 million. I'd assume he paid several million in legal fees to consummate the transaction, so let's make it an even $100 million.
The issue for businessmen is why bother to invest a huge chunk of money and time in a venture that has limited upside when the same sort of return can be achieved by investing in safe financial instruments with little or no effort.
 

Tom_Benjamin

Registered User
Sep 8, 2003
1,152
0
www.canuckscorner.com
Buffaloed said:
The issue for businessmen is why bother to invest a huge chunk of money and time in a venture that has limited upside when the same sort of return can be achieved by investing in safe financial instruments with little or no effort.

Exactly. I think $100 million for a team and rink in Buffalo is a great buy. The same package just sold in Vancouver for $250 million. Buy low, sell high is what McCaw did, and I imagine Golisano plans to do the same thing. McCaw paid about $150 million for the Canucks and the rink in 1995 and that was a bargain.

In this case, I don't think you can separate the divisions of the business. If he wants to improve the Sabres bottom line at the expense of the rink he can. If he can, if he wants to improve the bottom line of the rink he can.

If Golisano didn't think it was a good investment, he should not have made it. If he made the investment on the basis that the league was going to get a new CBA with a salary cap, he is a fool.

Tom
 

Buffaloed

webmaster
Feb 27, 2002
43,324
23,585
Niagara Falls
Tom_Benjamin said:
.

If Golisano didn't think it was a good investment, he should not have made it. If he made the investment on the basis that the league was going to get a new CBA with a salary cap, he is a fool.

Tom

It may be an investment on his next run for governor. :D
 

Tom_Benjamin

Registered User
Sep 8, 2003
1,152
0
www.canuckscorner.com
Buffaloed said:
It may be an investment on his next run for governor. :D

It could be. I think owners make these investments for lots of reasons. If so, it is not something that concerns the rest of the league, the players or the CBA. Any losses he incurs are campaign expenses.

I think that isn't very likely though. I think it is a steal. Melnyk got the Senators and Corel Centre for a terrific price too. The Sabres have an excellent upside.

Five years ago Canuck revenues were in Buffalo territory and Brian Burke was calling press conferences to announce losses. Today? They are one of the most profitable franchises in the NHL despite spending a lot more on payroll. I don't think Buffalo can match Vancouver broadcast revenues - Toronto probably doesn't match Vancouver broadcast revenues - but I do think NHL hockey is very viable in Buffalo.

Tom
 

thinkwild

Veni Vidi Toga
Jul 29, 2003
10,875
1,535
Ottawa
dawgbone said:
I don't think anyone is saying any differently. You need your elite teams, your top teams, your competetive teams, your inconsistant teams, and your cellar dwellers.

The idea is, as a cellar dweller you get good draft picks, and can develop them so your team can get out of the basement and be more competetive.

That can't happen right now because teams are signing the players they are developing to large contracts, which effects every team with an up and coming star. You can't get any better when the team you are building is losing it's core guys.

Well it feels to me many are saying this. If we agree that there are different types of teams, not 30 equal teams, then we can allow for some solutions that dont try to make everyone equal. Which we both seem to think is a good thing for a healthy league. The striving for great teams.



And based on the current economic structure of the NHL, it won't happen... at least not in a town like Ottawa.

We've come a long way baby. I think we've shown it can be done, even if we dont do it. Yes a lot of our players as UFAs will get the top rates. But thats still years from now. Plenty of time yet. Everyone already said we would never sign Alfie as a UFA. For the last few years, we've had Hossa, Havlat, Chara, Alfie, and Redden for less than the price of Federov and prospal last year. Big payroll is to be expected, if you have a great team with a lot of great players. IF you want to keep a team like together, you better be winning. If you are rich enough to keep it together without winning, all the power to ya. Your odds of winning arent as high as they look on paper. If you are winning, you can afford to keep it together.

Now again, this is in theory. I think the theory is sound. If the owners could go back in a time machine to the beginning of the CBA, knowing what they know now, could they make it work. IF we reset, tweaked, why cant they make it work if we restart it at an equilibrium they desire with a few new safeguards?
 

thinkwild

Veni Vidi Toga
Jul 29, 2003
10,875
1,535
Ottawa
NYIsles1 said:
Toronto made less revenue than Minnesota and Vancouver. Mostly because of their payroll.

This idea that Philadelphia, Rangers, Detroit, Colorado, St Louis, Boston, Chicago or the Kings make revenues that can subsidize the league is just not realistic. On their own most of them are currently losing money and in some cases tens of millions. (Rangers)

..
What revenue do these teams have to share?

...
You think some teams play to empty seats now, wait until they cannot sign free agents and the bills for tickets come in.

Just because Comcast, Cablevision, Little Ceasar's print money does not mean as stand alone businesses these hockey teams are profitable, what it does mean is they drive up the player market and hurt the overall sport.

Fair points. Who is giving the money to share. Or even who receives it? NYR claims to be losing the most money. Are they paying or receiving? There does have to be an adjustment to salaries to do this. The players are seemingly amenable to it.



buffaloed said:
you'd have to contact the writer of the Buffalo News article to see the breakdown on the actual figures. According to the article the Sabres took in $50.2 million. Considering the average ticket price last season was $35.46 and the average attendance was 17,206, we're only looking at $25 million in general ticket revenues. It sure looks like he's reporting all Sabres-related revenues
It does seem he is, thanks for the info. Still, it does seem he has a lot of potential for revenue growth. He needs help until he gets his revenues up. That seems fair to me. Its a revenue problem he is having now isnt it?
 

Buffaloed

webmaster
Feb 27, 2002
43,324
23,585
Niagara Falls
thinkwild said:
It does seem he is, thanks for the info. Still, it does seem he has a lot of potential for revenue growth. He needs help until he gets his revenues up. That seems fair to me. Its a revenue problem he is having now isnt it?

He has more than enough money to sustain losses by the team indefinitely. All he's looking for is a sensible economic model so the team can be competitive and profitable if it's well managed. Golisano's the last guy to be looking for handouts and he loathes mismanagement. He had some harsh words about the Rigas' mismanagement, as well as Mark Hamister who was looking for $60+ million in handouts when he bid for the team. Golisano didn't seek or receive any public financing. It should be noted that the Sabres lost $39.3 million in 2001-02 and $26.7 million for 2002-03. Golisano cut their losses to $8.2 million in his first year of ownership. Had they made the playoffs, they would have come close to breaking even, and would have been in good shape to turn a small profit this season. They did everything right, and still lost money. It shouldn't be the case that they have to do everything perfect to not lose money.
 

PecaFan

Registered User
Nov 16, 2002
9,243
520
Ottawa (Go 'Nucks)
Tom_Benjamin said:
Exactly. I think $100 million for a team and rink in Buffalo is a great buy. The same package just sold in Vancouver for $250 million. Buy low, sell high is what McCaw did, and I imagine Golisano plans to do the same thing. McCaw paid about $150 million for the Canucks and the rink in 1995 and that was a bargain.

Again, Vancouver has *not* been sold. And the man in the rumoured sale publicly scoffed at this ludicrous $250 million figure as being grossly in excess of what would be a reasonable sale amount.

Try and stick to actual facts.
 

Tom_Benjamin

Registered User
Sep 8, 2003
1,152
0
www.canuckscorner.com
Buffaloed said:
It shouldn't be the case that they have to do everything perfect to not lose money.

I don't think they do have to be perfect. I do think a team can be managed well and lose money, but that is not the normal state of affairs. Sometimes it is just bad luck. For example, injuries have a big affect on the cost side and the revenue side if team performance suffers.

Let's stop and think about the nature of this business. It is truly a competition for profits among the 30 teams. Let us begin with the premise that total NHL profits should be about $300 million. That's a 10% return on franchises worth on average $100 million. For the Oilers a good year sees them make a profit of $7.5 million, for the Rangers, it might be $20 million. But overall, a 10% return. (Don't take the actual numbers here too seriously. I'm trying to illustrate a point.)

A second premise is that this is a business where profits fluctuate wildly. Almost all revenues are local. Teams that are successful on the ice pile up revenues, teams that are not successful, struggle. This is true in the regular season and is particularly true for the playoffs. If the overall league profits should be $300 million, $150 million of them will go to the 16 playoff teams. Everybody can't win.

Thus in our theoretical model, the 16 playoff teams make $400 million in profits and the 14 teams that miss the playoffs lose $100 million. We still have a good return for the league. Setting aside the time value of money complication, the typical team does not have to make $10 million in profits every year to be a good investment. They have to turn $150 million in profits over fifteen years.

Again, if they are typical, they make the playoffs 8 times. They get one trip to the SCF, two trips to the conference finals and in four years they win one round of the playoffs. In the one year, they go to the SCF, they probably make 25% of the profit for the 15 years. In the other two years they are elite, they make another 25%. And so on.

When teams miss the playoffs, but are otherwise well managed, they might break even. In the two or three years they are a bottom feeder, they might lose money despite their best efforts. Over the 15 years, they turn their 10% profit. That's the way it should work. That's the way it has always worked. Well managed winning teams are extremely profitable. Poorly managed losing teams are extremely unprofitable. Everyone else falls in between the extremes. Over the long term, everyone gets their just desserts.

I don't think it is too hard to see why the NHL is less profitable today than it was ten years ago. The league added nine losers and zero winners. The same number of teams make the playoffs today as in 1980. The owners always see expansion as a free lunch. They took the $500 million in expansion fees and forgot that every new team made it harder to win, made it harder to get to the promised land of extreme profitability. The result has to be to reduce the overall profitability of the league because there is still only one Stanley Cup to be won.

So what's the answer? If we accept the idea that the league expanded so much that the economic model that has worked forever no longer works:

1) Do nothing. Profitability has been reduced and franchise values fall as a result. This seems fair since the expansion fees did end up in the owner's pockets.

2) Do nothing and let half a dozen teams fold. This, too, is fair given a zero sum game. There are only so many profits to be divided and competition drives out the unsuccessful.

3) Do substantial revenue sharing. This will not improve the profitability of the league but it is also fair. Right now the extremely profitable teams are not paying any price for their expansion fees. The extremely unprofitable ones have given back the benefits. This could be solved by making the final two rounds of the playoffs league revenues to be evenly divided among the 30 teams. Reduce profits of winners and reduce the losses of the losers. The result might be - across the league - an 8% return instead of a 10% return.

Result? All teams survive but hockey returns a smaller return on investment.

4) Get cost certainty. Artificially reduce the cost of labour to below what the profitable teams are willing to pay. This will return overall league profitability to where it was before expansion.

If there is revenue sharing included as part of the package, the profits will be spread around and all teams survive. If there is no significant revenue sharing, winning teams will become much more profitable and losers stay in the same place. It doesn't really matter to the owners as long as they all assume they will eventually win.

A $45 million salary cap (let's be realistic) would not affect half the teams because they already spend less than that. It would, however, dramatically improve the profits of the top teams.

The best solution for most owners is cost certainty without revenue sharing. The best of both worlds would be both 1) cost certainty, and 2) contraction. Profits for the remaining, say, 24 teams would be substantially higher.

The best solution for the players is number 1 or number 3. That preserves jobs and provides the appropriate return to the owners who effectively took their profits in expansion fees. They were supposed to be foregoing future profits when they expanded and they are foregoing them.

The second best solution for the players is number two. Do nothing and let half a dozen teams fold. The job loss would be substantial but the remaining players - the majority - get more. The players are willing to give something back to save jobs, but for them the choice will end up being an arithmetical calculation.

If the owners get what they want right now, the player's salaries drop by about $500 million. If the six weakest franchises fall by the wayside, they collectively lose about $180 million. That's a no brainer for the players. The players are collectively better off if 12 teams fold than with a $31 million cap.

Tom
 

thinkwild

Veni Vidi Toga
Jul 29, 2003
10,875
1,535
Ottawa
I kept waiting for:
5). Get cost manageability, through a combination of commonly discussed levers.
 

Pepper

Registered User
Aug 30, 2004
14,693
269
Tom_Benjamin said:
A $45 million salary cap (let's be realistic) would not affect half the teams because they already spend less than that. It would, however, dramatically improve the profits of the top teams.

One of the biggest myths around...You're TOTALLY wrong, a salary cap of $45M would affect all teams, those spending less than that included.

When top teams have to cut their payroll, it means the demand for players drops dramatically since big teams can't sign them anymore. Anyone with basic economic education knows that in a (relative) free market environment the demand will move down until it reaches a price level in which it meets the supply curve. That means savings for all teams so smaller teams can either get the same level of player material (or roughly the same) for less money or for the same money get a improved level of player material.

think it this way, if the average payroll currently is what $50M, in the new system it will be somewhere around $35-40M (not all teams will spend the max allowed) which in turn means the average salary goes down 20-30% meaning all teams operating under the same market would benefit from the lowered salaries. This is a HUGE financial improvement for smaller teams.

And I think $40M is the absolute max owners will accept, that means even lower salaries.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad