Post-Game Talk: Sabres 3, Penguins 1 - Deja Vu All Over Again

[ZeroPucksGiven]

You just said his options were a ****ty defenseman, a slow and injured defenseman, and a rookie with no playoff experience that was struggling.

So your food analogy should be more like saying here’s a rotten tomato, some expired bread, and some mystery meat... make me a great sandwich.

You could certainly bring a new coach in that may jump start them for a couple months, but in the end the self-inflicted flaws JR created will bubble back to the surface and cause major issues IMHO.

I didn't say the meal with mediocre ingredients would be great, but it shouldn't kill you either

Tell me all the adjustments Sully did during the Isles series

-Did he try to get Sid on/off quickly vs their 4th line? Nope
-Did he attempt a left wing lock or trap himself vs the Isles when he saw his players getting outplayed? Nope
- Did he do anything outside of the Maata/JJ trial in terms of his personnel choices? The injury to McCann doesn't count as that forced him to play Blueger. Sully could have scratched a hobbled ZAR or an ineffective Garrett Wilson in favor of Blueger or AJ. Yet chose none of the above because going down 0-3 requires no adjustments apparently

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I didn't say the meal with mediocre ingredients would be great, but it shouldn't kill you either

Tell me all the adjustments Sully did during the Isles series

-Did he try to get Sid on/off quickly vs their 4th line? Nope
-Did he attempt a left wing lock or trap himself vs the Isles when he saw his players getting outplayed? Nope
- Did he do anything outside of the Maata/JJ trial in terms of his personnel choices? The injury to McCann doesn't count as that forced him to play Blueger. Sully could have scratched a hobbled ZAR or an ineffective Garrett Wilson in favor of Blueger or AJ. Yet chose none of the above because going down 0-3 requires no adjustments apparently

I went over the adjustments I saw him making way back in April, and there were plenty, but like I said back then, it was like putting all of his fingers in the Titanic and hoping she wouldn’t sink.

Trotz had just won a cup the previous season, was coach of the year, and no adjustments he could make prevented the Isles from getting swept either by the Canes... and then the Canes got swept and nothing Brind’Amour did worked either.

Sometimes there is nothing that can be done when the roster is flawed. Making adjustments aren’t a magic wand that always work.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

I went over the adjustments I saw him making way back in April, and there were plenty, but like I said back then, it was like putting all of his fingers in the Titanic and hoping she wouldn’t sink.

Trotz had just won a cup the previous season, was coach of the year, and no adjustments he could make prevented the Isles from getting swept either by the Canes... and then the Canes got swept and nothing Brind’Amour did worked either.

Sometimes there is nothing that can be done when the roster is flawed. Making adjustments aren’t a magic wand that always work.

I don't recall seeing your post?
But I saw no adjustments vs NYI. I didn't follow the Islanders to see what, if any changes Trotz did so I can't comment on that. However, no one can say that NYI were more talented on paper vs the Pens, that leads to some questions that need answered

As for me, I guess I'd rather die missing every shot as opposed to my same fate with every bullet left in my gun. Sully apparently feels differently

 

[Turin]

I went over the adjustments I saw him making way back in April, and there were plenty, but like I said back then, it was like putting all of his fingers in the Titanic and hoping she wouldn’t sink.

Trotz had just won a cup the previous season, was coach of the year, and no adjustments he could make prevented the Isles from getting swept either by the Canes... and then the Canes got swept and nothing Brind’Amour did worked either.

Sometimes there is nothing that can be done when the roster is flawed. Making adjustments aren’t a magic wand that always work.

“Adjustment” to this board is a meaningless buzzword at this point.

 

[Fatty McLardy]

It's time for an overhaul on defense, honestly. Everybody on D should be on the trade table.

 

[Andy99]

He was spot on. Geno implied something similar. They had trouble reading each other, their timing was off, there wasn't good puck support. They were individuals, not a team. They need to play games and get into a flow, develop chemistry. After they do that, then we should reassess.

But that happened all last year too...why hasn’t it been fixed? What are they doing in practice? Why do 30 other teams have no problem incorporating new players without coming out for the first game looking like ****? Buffalo has a new coach and installed a whole new system according to Sheary

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

“Adjustment” to this board is a meaningless buzzword at this point.

It has been for a while, honestly. People will ignore the giant neon sign shaped like JJ or Gudbranson or Maatta or Brassard or Bjugs or whatever and fall back to "Sully! Muh adjustments!"

I'm not mad about it, it's easy and the default thing to do. I just think it's shallow.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I don't recall seeing your post?
But I saw no adjustments vs NYI. I didn't follow the Islanders to see what, if any changes Trotz did so I can't comment on that. However, no one can say that NYI were more talented on paper vs the Pens, that leads to some questions that need answered

As for me, I guess I'd rather die missing every shot as opposed to my same fate with every bullet left in my gun. Sully apparently feels differently

It was a whole series of posts, not just one breakdown.

Ya talent matters, but it’s much easier to get a team of mostly coal miners to play a systematic game like Trotz did, than it is to get a team of big stars to buy in and stay disciplined enough to overcome the other roster flaws.

What ends up happening more often than not, is the stars get frustrated and try to do to much, then breakdowns are happening shift after shift.

Sullivan has a lot more juggling to do than people really understand. He can’t go Mike Johnston and neuter his stars... and his GM has given him the opposite of what he needs on D... yet he has also has to find a way to get his stars to play focused and disciplined hockey...

I don’t know how you can play up tempo hockey with a shitty transition game, but your stars aren’t going to sit back for 82 games a year.

There isn’t a great solution for this, expect hoping some young blueliners work out, or JR finally brings in talented puck movers on the back end.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

It has been for a while, honestly. People will ignore the giant neon sign shaped like JJ or Gudbranson or Maatta or Brassard or Bjugs or whatever and fall back to "Sully! Muh adjustments!"

I'm not mad about it, it's easy and the default thing to do. I just think it's shallow.

I think I was quite clear how I defined "adjustments"

-Tactics: trapping, left wing lock, heavy forecheck 2-1-2 (which is what NYI did)
-Personnel: I listed the options he had that series
-Deployment: why did Sully pull Schultz for Letang in the first Cup run when he saw a poor matchup on the ice? Why did Sully double shift Sid vs the Caps to dictate his own preference?

He did zero of that from when I re-watched the series. He did it in previous playoffs.

So did he mail it in last year and stopped caring?

 

[Burn]

But Sullivan never did anything really wrong like DB.

He’s the kind of guy we all wanted when DB was torturing us and I don’t want to see him go.

Sullivan won his second cup, and that summer his GM spiraled into madness and got guys I know he didn’t want, and JR decided the team had to get big and tough !WILSON!

Now it’s the start of season 3 since JR’s madness took hold, and the defense is still a mess.

Ya, there are options in Riikola and Marino, but I dunno. Seems like a lot to hope for I guess and there are again politics at play as I discussed already.

What does it even matter if the young blueliners work out if JR still doesn’t grasp what this team’s identity needs to be for Sullivan to excel?

He will just deep six everything again if he isn’t fully on board.

I dont know what to think about Sullivan. I want the Pens to be a skilled possession team and all they do is play a glorified chip and chase.

Just go back from their practice and it barely flow and contact drills... Its chip to areas to chase it down.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

It was a whole series of posts, not just one breakdown.

Ya talent matters, but it’s much easier to get a team of mostly coal miners to play a systematic game like Trotz did, than it is to get a team of big stars to buy in and stay disciplined enough to overcome the other roster flaws.

What ends up happening more often than not, is the stars get frustrated and try to do to much, then breakdowns are happening shift after shift.

Sullivan has a lot more juggling to do than people really understand. He can’t go Mike Johnston and neuter his stars... and his GM has given him the opposite of what he needs on D... yet he has also has to find a way to get his stars to play focused and disciplined hockey...

I don’t know how you can play up tempo hockey with a ****ty transition game, but your stars aren’t going to sit back for 82 games a year.

There isn’t a great solution for this, expect hoping some young blueliners work out, or JR finally brings in talented puck movers on the back end.

Well whatever Sully is or isn't doing, it certainly isn't bringing focus and disciplined hockey the past 2+ years. I'm not saying they should trap 82 games for 3 periods, but I can't recall the last time they've employed it to much effect. They trapped the hell out of teams during the 2nd Cup run when their D was decimated, seemed to be plenty of buy in then.

This is why I've repeatedly said that i believe he's lost the room and players have tuned him out.

Some of that IS his fault, and some of it isn't.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Well whatever Sully is or isn't doing, it certainly isn't bringing focus and disciplined hockey the past 2+ years. I'm not saying they should trap 82 games for 3 periods, but I can't recall the last time they've employed it to much effect. They trapped the hell out of teams during the 2nd Cup run when their D was decimated, seemed to be plenty of buy in then.

This is why I've repeatedly said that i believe he's lost the room and players have tuned him out.

Some of that IS his fault, and some of it isn't.

No coach is perfect, but when you mix big stars with a heavily flawed, mostly shitty D that transitions the puck poorly... what system can you play that will win hockey games and keep your stars happy for 82 games?

I honestly don’t know of any, but maybe another coach could catch their ear for a few months somehow. In the end though, the flaws will pop back up when it matters the most ... and people will be yelling about that coach.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I’m just mostly puzzled how Sullivan and Rutherford seem to be speaking entirely different languages now.

 

[SHOOTANDSCORE]

But that happened all last year too...why hasn’t it been fixed? What are they doing in practice? Why do 30 other teams have no problem incorporating new players without coming out for the first game looking like ****? Buffalo has a new coach and installed a whole new system according to Sheary

I'm in the minority but I didn't think it looked like last year. It was the same in the sense that they looked ineffective but this felt more like rust. Plus, it takes a while to correct bad habits. The Pens looked good when they were on the same page as each other, where as last season, more often than not, they could read each other and still look ineffective. If there's no improvement after a few games, maybe start to worry.

Even today, the coaching staff is working with them on a basic detail of the game. That should be telling about the need to rebuild the players habits from the ground up and where we are in the process. There will be no instant gratification here.

On the other hand, Buffalo had no laurels to rest on the last few years. They've been fighting for every point and constantly trying to get better and pick up good habits. They were just a better team.

 

[SEALBound]

I’m just mostly puzzled how Sullivan and Rutherford seem to be speaking entirely different languages now.

I'm more baffled at pre-season Sullivan vs regular season Sullivan.

 

[Gurglesons]

I’m just mostly puzzled how Sullivan and Rutherford seem to be speaking entirely different languages now.

Rutherford thought the moves he made were what won the cup when 2017 proved it was the staff as well as the stars.

It’s funny, people bagged on Hornqvist with Malkin and Rust with Sid and both those decisions resulted in prolonged runs that got us into the playoffs the last two years.

 

[Gurglesons]

I'm more baffled at pre-season Sullivan vs regular season Sullivan.

Does Sullivan control our AHL to NHL transactions?

 

[SHOOTANDSCORE]

I’m just mostly puzzled how Sullivan and Rutherford seem to be speaking entirely different languages now.

We should know by now that JR is basically a politician. Nothing he says can be trusted or taken at face value.

I'm just not sure if his motivation is to do his job or just to drive us insane.

 

[SEALBound]

Does Sullivan control our AHL to NHL transactions?

I doubt anyone has sole control so to speak. It's likely by committee between JR, Sullivan, AGMs, and WBS coaching staff.

 

[Night Shift]

Would you say when Malkin and Crosby hit mid to late 30's they should think about adjusting to play a defensive style system?

 

[Turin]

Would you say when Malkin and Crosby hit mid to late 30's they should think about adjusting to play a defensive style system?

No.

 

[Angrrus]

Let's pretend for a second that you understand the connection between offense and defense and that letting up over 40 shots means you spent a lot of time in your own zone and don't have guys who could transition the puck to your forwards... let's PRETEND you know that, just for the exercise, OK? Alright, let's begin...

Nah, I changed my mind, I don't want to. I'd ask for your in-depth analysis but I very much don't want it.

Yes that’s exactly my point: Letang playing on the top pair, and Crosby getting most, if not all, of his ES shifts with Letang, are absolutely to blame for not creating anything up front and allowing numerous chances and goals against on the back end, and that has nothing to do with who plays on the other two pairings and how they performed on their shifts.

It’s just become a lazy excuse for people who are too partial for our top stars and can’t bring themselves to acknowledge their faults and lack of effort: whenever they fail to score when the team needed it, these people say it’s defense’s fault, Jack Johnson’s fault, Mike Sullivan’s fault, Jim Rutherford’s fault, refs’ fault... just never Sidney Crosby, Kris Letang or Evgeniy Malkin’s fault.

And that’s sad.

 

[Ugene Magic]

This is a grab-bag of a roster.

This isn't where they were 4 years ago. All the big pieces in place and filling out the roster with internal fillers.

You got..

Guentzel, Crosby
Galchenyuk, Malkin

then what?

At this point they are all fillers. Nobody has a spot locked in. None. That's not even close to having depth. They are back to relying on Crosby and Malkin up front at a declining side of the slope to carry a team.

The D-core should be sound if you look at the top 4 on paper, but they are trying to spread out the talent rather then stacking pairings and use the bottom two in a sheltered stance.

Dumoulin, Letang
Pettersson, Schultz

Riikola, Gudbranson

Even though Murray was good, they need to have him steal games now and then and prove he's that top 5 goaltender in this league. I don't want to hear b2b winning goalie. That was 3 years ago. The other point of note is staying healthy for a season for once. He's never played more than 50 games.

Where I'm going with this is, the line right now has to be towed by 9 guys. Your top 4 at forward, top 4 on D and your loan standout at net-minding.

There is no depth beyond that. They needed to add difference makers to what they had, and instead they keep subtracting from it.

Those 9 players have to bare the brunt of everything. They are not even 2010 to 2014 worthy as they sit. A team, though lacking, playing above their means in the face of adversity. Finding ways to win.

This is a, I want to say mini rebuild, but when you're down to 7 to 9 "regulars players" left from the start of the JR/b2b cup era that's leaning towards just shy of an actual rebuild.

If your identity is Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Guentzel and Murray this team is going to have a hard time staying below the 20 team mark of the 31 teams, much of which have been trending the opposite direction to the Penguins.

In "all" of the cup years they had difference makers beyond what they currently do.

 

[Angrrus]

This looks like the Penguins teams of the past that used to rely on Crosby and Malkin to carry them through the regular season and into the playoffs. Except Crosby and Malkin may not have the legs to do that anymore.

In that regard, trading Kessel may have been the worst thing management could have done this offseason.

It’s almost like we didn’t see a ton of games like this one last year, WITH Kessel on the ice, and doing absolutely NOTHING to help the team turn the tides.

I get it, Phil is a likable dude and all, but... come on, man.

 

[ncm7772]

Whatup my fellow maniacs. Missed ya’s.

I try not to go psycho over one game, but man. Last night was BAD. To steal someone else’s quote, it could’ve been Game 5 of the Isles series.

Everyone knows Murray is my boy, and I’m not purposely trying to pump him. But last night was easily 6-1 or worse if not for his play early on.